WV - Sodder Family - 5 children, Christmas eve 1945 - #3

[catsy101]

So what do we have left?

She said it is possible for jealousy to come into play. If the parents had canceled Christmas, IE - No tree etc because the oldest brother couldn't come home the result could be some unhappy and potentially angry children who were thinking, "They love our older brother more than us because they canceled Christmas for him". But she said even if this were the case, she didn't think they would be willing to leave forever just because of that. So why would they leave forever? She said if they got angry and started doing something stupid and accidentally set the house on fire, they could very well get scared and run off. If you set your house on fire would you want to be there when your parents found out? Probably not. She also told me it would be easy for Maurice to lie and say "I'm 18 and our parents died in a car accident and I am 18 so therefore I can legally take care of my siblings." She told me children as young as 14 could easily get hired for a job, and told me if Maurice and Martha Lee both lied about their ages they could get jobs and work to care for their siblings. She also let me know that it was very easy to get a different name by looking through newspapers and finding death notices for people around the same age as you, walk into the local records office, and request that person's birth certificate, saying you were that person. She said they pretty much trusted you on your word, and would hand it on over.

 

[catsy101]

So why would they do that, if it wasn't over anger and jealousy over their older brother? Welp she gave me several scenarios as to why the children could have done this, and some of it will not be easy to hear. Granddaughter, if you read this I mean no harm, these are simply scenarios and we have no proof of them. Please take them with a grain of salt and please do not get angry or upset with me. In order to properly look through this case we need to look at every single scenario which could come into play.

 

[catsy101]

Wonderful and amazing grandparents does not neccessarily mean wonderful and amazing parents.

--- If and please don't get angry I have no proof---
If... The parent's were not so great parents, in the 1940's nobody aired dirty laundry in public. This means no one told people about their problems in the 1940's. If George or one of the older brothers were hurting the girls or the boys or both could they have left due to that? The youngest child to disappear was Betty and we all know Betty was 5 years old. What if someone in the home was doing something to Martha Lee, and than had moved on to Jennie, and one day Betty turned up and said, "So and so touched me here." ? If this happened I am sure that Martha Lee and Jennie would have done anything to prevent it from happening to their little sister as well. And perhaps both Maurice and Louis decided to help them escape. Or they may have been abused as well. My grandma remembered a story about a man who had lived down the block from her when she was only ten. One of her best friends was that man's daughter. He had six children and his wife living with him. She remembered the day when the man's mother took the children with her for good because the daughter had turned up pregnant. Much later she found out that the kids had been raped by the father, and the daughter had turned up pregnant by her own dad. Sick sad but true. She told me the family had seemed totally normal, happy kids, happy wife, happy husband. But that was only through outsiders. Grandma also told me that a lot of times when a person ages, he or she changes and may not do the same things to his grandchildren.

 

[catsy101]

Okay not that we bite the bullet and look at the worst case let's take er down a notch.

Money troubles--- Grandma said that if the parents were worried about money and even if they talked about it when the kids were out of the room, they could have overheard the discussions. The kids could have believed that by setting the house on fire, calling the parents to ensure they were awake, (which could have been done according to my grandma with a LADDER and something to tap into the phone line, (easily done at the time), their parents could have gotten their home insurance money and been rich. Also, by subtracting 5 children from the mix, the parents would have been much better off financially.

 

[catsy101]

Or it could have been some sort of game gone wrong. Let's say the kids recieved war toys from the five and dime for christmas. Let's just take that scenario. In fact let's take this up a notch. Grandma said that granaids were used back than, not a pineapple. But she said a granaid looked very similar to a pineapple. Now let's say the daughter, Marian or Marion or how do you spell her name? Anyway if she bought home what she believed was a TOY granaid but it was actually a real granaid and it was thrown and hit the roof, and began a fire and the kids were terrified of their parents finding out what happened... So one of them grabs a ladder and runs to the phone line to make the call to wake up the parents. I am thinking Maurice would have done this he taps into the phone line, disguises his voice to sound like a girl, asks for someone, just to make sure the parents are awake. THan he and the other kids run for the hills figuring they are in trouble. Grandma said they probably would have to go to a new state so no one knew or recognized them. She said back than the cops would have come to the house and Maurice and the others would have been in it deep. So they would know that and be terrified to go home. They could have talked their way onto a bus or a train or something to get out of there as quickly as humanly possible. Grandma said if they showed up at a bus or train station someone probably would have shown pity on them. Picture it Christmas eve they say our parents just died in a car accident/our parents died of an illness or etc, than say We have family who is going to take us in but we need to get to this place, odds are someone would have allowed them to get on the train to get there. Or the bus or whatever.

 

[catsy101]

This would explain why the kids never showed back up. The kids would never show up if they set the home on fire. They would be too scared. I also asked my grandmother wouldn't they tell their children or grandchildren about what happened? She told me absolutly not! Why? Welp, do people who try drugs tell their kids they did it when they were young? Usually not. Do parents who skipped school to hang out with friends at the beach tell their kids about it? Nope. Would a child who set his house on fire and burned it to the ground tell his or her kids about it? Probably not.

 

[catsy101]

She said our only hope is that one or more than one of these kids are still alive, and somehow we can track them down through photographs or something and she also said we need to hope that any survivors do NOT have altizmers or something.

 

[birdie74]

None of these scenarios seem to fit to me. All accounts of the family are that they were loving and happy. No family is perfect, and I know people tend to hide their dirty laundry, but it doesn't seem that way to me when I hear quotes from Sylvia and see the way the parents reacted. I don't believe they would have run away. I don't think they would have been that upset about about Christmas since they had just gotten presents. If that pineapple-like device had been a Christmas gift, the parents and Marion would have known it.

I don't know how big their property was, but if they had cows and chickens, it was probably pretty big and the kids were likely pretty far from the house for a while.

I also don't think kids would necessarily have fought a kidnapper. Whether kids or adults, people have different reactions in different situations, and nobody knows how they will react until in that situation. I think kids were probably even more likely to submit back then when authority was more respected. It's also hard to say how they would react after the fact. I know it's hard to imagine someone staying, but look at the Smart and Hornbeck cases, and we don't know what they were told, like something had happened to the rest of their family.

I can't imagine it being an accident or a runaway situation. When you look at how weird the adults acted in this case (except the parents) I can't imagine it was all a coincidence. There's Janutolo, Fire Chief Morris, the priest, the guy who cut the phone lines and stole the block and tackle, the comments by the prosecutor about having to eat with the ones involved, some indications the Ciprianis could be involved, all the witnesses who are too afraid to talk, possible sightings of them with adults. Could all of this stuff be involved, then it turn out the kids had started the fire and left on their own? I just can't buy it.

 

[catsy101]

But if the kids were still alive they would probably have come forward by now.

 

[catsy101]

It's been a long time. A very long time.

 

[catsy101]

I hope I am wrong. I do. But I just don't know. And if the kids set the fire accidentally, say they even Found the gradnade when they were out doing the chores and two of the kids start fighting over it and one throws it and it lands on the roof, or something of that nature they would be scared enough to run off and not to go back. The police would have come and the kids would have been in very deep trouble, even if it were an accident. In the 1940's even the best parents in the world were stricter than the parents of today, and the kids may have feared their parents hating them or something for setting the fire and burning the house to the ground. And had the kids left and run off, once they started running going back would be even more scary. Kind of like lying. Once you start lying, stopping gets harder and harder.

So say the kids run away from home that night because they are afraid of going to jail for burning the house to the ground, than they are gone, and their parents at first think they are dead. Now they feel like wow, we can't go back because they think we are dead.

Than they hop on a bus and end up in another state. Now they really can't go back, because it's too far away. Say Maurice lies about his age and gets a job now he has responsibilities and can't go back. And Martha gets a job and she has responsibilities. Each excuse leads to another, the kids are in school and doing well, so we can't go back. We are renting a house and we can't go back.

I'll tell you what, I was born in 1978. I am an only child. My dad was definitly no where near as strict as the parents in 1945. But had I accidentally burned down our home, and nearly, (at least in my mind), killed my parents who were in there, I would head for the hills and I would NEVER go back. Because I would be terrified at what my dad's reaction would have been.

 

[birdie74]

I see your point. I just don't think so many other things would have happened. There is proof a criminal was on their property that night and both cut the phone lines and stole their property. What he stole was used for removing car engines, the same night neither truck would start. I just think the adults were too guilty to put this on the kids.

I figure if the kids survived, they were probably given new identities and afraid to come back, then settled into new lives. I agree it's strange they never did after 62 years and it's a stretch, but to me it's less of a stretch than anything else I can imagine.

 

[Teresa Larson]

If the kids did some how set the house on fire they might have been scared but they wouldn't have run away. Those kids could have been told anything to keep them from trying to go back home. I also highly doubt they would have rebelled against any adult at least not back then. Children were taught to respect their elders. The Sodders didn't have money problems They owned a trucking company which was a lucrative business back then hauling coal. I believe Mr Sodder was a bull headed man and refused to pay his dues to the Mafia OR Mr J was the one who had the children taken and the house set on fire.

 

[Teresa Larson]

Just so you know, am unsure as to whether or not they are the same girl. Seem similar but one issue I have that my husband pointed out is one girl, the ballet student, seems to have a turned up nose with bigger nostrils than the Betty photo, also he pointed out that the ballet girl seems to have a chin cleft (or he said it may be just a shadow) while the other girl, Betty, seems to have a more smooth chin in her photo. What do you guys think? They still seem so similar. And the year is right.

I do not think this picture is of Betty. For one the age would be too far off. The girl in the ballerina outfit looks to be 5 years older than Betty. The ONLY thing these 2 have in common is dark hair and eyes.

 

[catsy101]

I was told later this was from a movie. But I was told the movie was not released in 1947, but in 1951 or sometime about there. A lot of the people on here say they do look a lot alike, same eyes, same face shape, etc. It IS a stretch that it is betty however given the fact that it is unlikely that someone who had Betty would ever allow her to be filmed for fear of being found out.

Something else my grandma told me, to let you guys know. She said, "In rural West Virginia, during the coal mining era, there were many cave-ins." She explained it would have been very easy for someone to take those children and kill them and put their bodies into a mine, and to cave it in. And I have another question, and I wonder where we could find this out. Anyone know if after that fateful Christmas Eve there was a cave in? It could have been the same night, the night after on Christmas day, the day after that... Just a thought. What if the kids went to play in say a coal mine that night and it caved in on them? No one would have known they went there to play if they didn't tell anyone, right?

This could be a crazy comedy of errors, just like the book. Only this was not a comedy, and more of a tragedy. And incidentally, anyone know if George had to have his trucks fixed after that night? Or was it from the cold, that they couldn't get them started up? It should be quite easy to figure it out, because either a couple of days later the trucks started up, and it was just very cold that night, OR George had to have them fixed because something had been done to them, such as a line was cut or pieces of the truck had been taken out.

 

[catsy101]

So let me just um put this out there for a scenario:::

The kids are outside playing in the snow, or they are outside doing the chores as a group, either way they are all outside right? Now if we work on this timeline things could potentially have happened this way

1. Kids go outside to do something

2. Woman calls the Sodder home probably to see if it sounds like the Sodder's are asleep so she either expects a very groggy sounding person OR she expects no answer at all

3. Mrs Sodder picks up the phone and hangs up believing it to be a prank call

4. Mrs Sodder goes downstairs and sees that the children have not closed the curtains locked the door or turned off the lights so she does all three of these things before heading back to bed

5. The woman who called tells the robber to go over, Mrs Sodder sounded pretty groggy and she couldn't hear laughing or a party going on at the party (after all it was Christmas Eve)

6. The man shows up and starts to get things he wants to steal out of the shed

7. Children hear the commotion and I am guessing perhaps one or more of the younger children would have headed over first, thinking it is Santa Claus, and if they ran off before the older children could grab them the older ones would have followed

8. Not wanting to be caught and surely knowing the kids could and would identify him he perhaps takes the kids with him. He had to have someone helping him because I DO believe Maurice would not have allowed himself and his siblings to be taken without a fight. Back than children WERE taught to be respectful of adults HOWEVER I don't think these kids were stupid either. Kids got abducted back than and killed, only it happened less frequently and usually made HEADLINES back than. So maybe there's a scuffel and maybe there is more than one person stealing.

9. Perhaps at this point the criminal is scared because this has turned from being something simple, stealing, to kidnapping. So instead of making things better he makes them worse. He sets the house on fire, probably figuring everyone will believe the kids died in the fire, can't figure out what to do with the kids, and perhaps the coal mine was the easy way out. Or perhaps he decides to try and make a profit by selling the kids on the black market. Or perhaps he just takes them to New York and tosses them into the first orphanage willing to take them. And if they are/were still alive, I would have no idea as to why they never came forward or tried to get back home. I hate to say it but if it is the honest truth that George and Jennie did not have any "dirty laundry", and the kids were loved and well taken care of, the kids would have tried to get back home. Even with the threat of "We'll hurt your dad or your mom or your other siblings". So if they didn't try and the parents were loving, it may be because they were killed soon after this whole thing took place.

 

[birdie74]

I mentioned the Smart and Hornbeck cases before. To me, those cases just proved that kidnapping can do some strange things to the psychology of a child, and their actions may not follow what we consider to be common sense after that. Those were two kids who were rescued by miracles, but how many other kids are still out there who were never rescued, but who also never came back voluntarily and just stayed in their traps.

 

[Rhett]

We have heard of many other children who never came home on Websleuths. Many after so many years believe their families have forgotten them or don't love them.

 

[Teresa Larson]

Yes I totally agree Those kids could have been told anything or even threatened. Pedophiles do it all of the time to children. They tell them not to say anything to anybody or they'd kill their parents etc. It could have been a case where they were told they died in the fire so they never bothered looking for the rest of their family. It's sad but things like this happen all of the time. Maurice might have put up a fight but if someone grabbed one of his sister's and said I will kill her if you don't come with me He would have went along to keep his sister from getting hurt.

 

[Kiki]

Yes I totally agree Those kids could have been told anything or even threatened. Pedophiles do it all of the time to children. They tell them not to say anything to anybody or they'd kill their parents etc. It could have been a case where they were told they died in the fire so they never bothered looking for the rest of their family. It's sad but things like this happen all of the time. Maurice might have put up a fight but if someone grabbed one of his sister's and said I will kill her if you don't come with me He would have went along to keep his sister from getting hurt.

Wouldn't anyone who threatened them have long since died? If they were given new identities it's odd that they never tried to trace family who survived the fire or any aunts, uncles and cousins after the person who threatened them died. If they are alive I imagine some (if not all) would have married and had children maybe even grandchildren. It's strange that not one of them would have told their children about the night they lost their family. If my mother or grandmother told me something like this had happpened to them I would do some research and find out as much as I could about it. If they were given new identities I think it would be very strange that not one of them would have told their grandchildren about their past.