WV - Sodder Family - 5 children, Christmas eve 1945 - #3

[shadowangel]

The truth of what happened that night will most likely never be known. Those who were there, outside of the family, all seemed to have some personal agenda. The family were, of course, completely grief-stricken. As Ive said here before, memories fade...Facts become legend, legends become facts, and the truth is lost to time.

For my part, I cant bring myself to believe that five human beings were completely destroyed in a house fire. Cremations are carefully controlled events, using technology and equipment specifically designed for that purpose. Even then, other means must then be used to render the remains as they are presented afterward.
Could one body be completely destroyed in a house fire? Perhaps. There are so many variables in a house fire that I think its difficult to gauge what happens in one fire to another.
But for me, I find it inconceivable that five people could be completely consumed in the circumstances we're faced with here.

By the way Jenni, your fresh view on the case is welcomed.

 

[Laura_Bean]

Okay once I again I have really hard time accepting the logic.

You say the man may have been about to steal one of the vehicles. But the vehicles had been TAMPERED with and neither of the cars would start. The cars started the day before, both of them started. The night of the fire, suddenly, neither vehicle would start. If he was going to steal a vehicle, why would he tamper with them? And if he wasn't the one who tampered with them, who did?

Two cars - Both that started the day before- Neither one starts that night

That seems odd to me. Very, very, odd.

 

[Laura_Bean]

I agree with ShadowAngel. If u told me that one small child was completely consumed in a fire, and left only small bone fragments, I would say yes, possible.

If u said 2 kids were completely consumed, and they were both small children, young children, I would again, probably say possible.

But when u tell me 5 children were all consumed and 1 was 14 yrs old, another was 12, and than a 9 yr old an 8 yr old and the youngest was 5, I say.... Now that could be possible under the right conditions, maybe, but I honestly dont think the conds were there. And the 14 yr old boy? You would think something would be left of him, something would be left of the 12 yr old girl. The 5 yr old, Betty? Yeah. I would say poss if she was in there she could have nothing left, but the others? All of them? I just dont think so. I think something else happened entirely that night. And it is a major coincidence that they r robbed and the cars wont start and the phone line is cut and the kids didnt do their chores and the beef liver shows up unburned and uncharred, and there is a fire and there is nothing left of the kids, and the ladder is gone and the fire department doesn't show until the next morning, and the fire dept says wait for us to look for bones until after the holiday.... It all just adds up to a very crazy case. And the photo in the mail. the one that looks almost identical to their son, Louis, only older? What do u make of that? No return address. If there was one I would say someone was trying to cash in on the reward, which makes this photo seem to me, to be MORE believable. Now the photo in the magazine we cannot find, that might be mistaken identity, but the photo sent to the Sodder family in the mail makes me think someone felt bad for what they did and sent the picture as an, "Don't worry he is alive and he is fine" sort of thing.

 

[Canadian4]

Long time daily lurker here. I personally believe the children died that night (although there are a few things that could suggest otherwise).
1. Insurance - an insurance man gets angry with Mr Sodder because he won't buy insurance. I can see him saying "fine, don't buy insurance, let's just hope your house doesn't burn down cause you will be sorry". Now if the guy is a nut and was that angry he could have came back, cut the phone lines and tampered with the vehicles to delay help coming so maximum damage could happen. This could also explain the ladder being moved. The ladder may simply have been moved by one of the kids playing. We are rural and my teenage son has our ladder out from time to time (and doesn't always put it away grrrr).
2. Children - if the children were taken and still alive why didn't any of them ever surface? The older ones would surely remember details of their former life. Of course they could have been taken and killed but why? I can see the insurance guy being angry enough to commit arson, but kidnapping and murdering 5 kids? One against five is risky unless he had a gun.
3. Bang on roof - this could be insurance guy throwing lit objects at the house to start the fire. Alternatively, maybe the fire started up there and something in the attic exploded from the heat (light bulb, china mugs etc?).
Theif - I am not sure of the timing with the guy stealing from the garage, but looters would take avantage of the fact that everyone was concentrating on the fire and wouldn't notice a guy stealing small items. Or, maybe insurance guy had a helper who tampered with the vehicles while he started the fire and when caught said he was stealing because the consequences were less than those of arson and possibly murder. Neither would ever tell because they would implicate themself if they did.
Photos - Bettys picture could be mistaken identity. We see what we want to see and the odds of seeing a stranger sometime during your life who looks like someone you know are very high. With the louis photo, it could be as simple as one of the thousands of people who ever drove by the billboard (and maybe had an old photo if they had been on vacation from another country) says to their friend "boy you look like that kid on the billboard". Why they would send the photo without a note or letter is odd though.
Fire trucks - again, I am rural and when we had a fire we had to wait an hour for the trucks to arrive and even then they couldn't do anything until water arrived. How far away were the fire trucks and was water readily available. Maybe they couldn't gather firefighters because it was xmas eve.
These are just my thoughts, forgive me if I have offended anyone with them.

 

[Jenni979]

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1310&dat=20020316&id=7XkVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=yesDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5162,4135486

Here is a news article from 2002 in which 6 children from the ages of 11 to 2 were killed in a house fire (Granted, it was set by their father, but still). The bodies were reduced to nothing but small fragments. In this case the house did not burn anywhere near as long as the Sodder home. I am not saying that this is what absolutely happened, but I am saying that it is possible.

As for the photo... There are a few explainations that I think are possible... Someone could have sent the photo to be cruel or as a mean spirited joke... Or they may have sent the photo thinking that they were truly helping the family. Look at today's cases of missing children as example. The police and family recieve numerous tips and even photos from well meaning people that turn out to be nothing. (IE, those photos that were sent to the Anthony family that supposedly showed Caylee playing in the fun-center of some mall.)

I do agree with Canadian about people "seeing what they want to see." I'm willing to bet that I could find dozens of photos that could pass as one of the missing Sodder children, older or grown up.

 

[shadowangel]

In the Jay Handel case, the children were killed before the fire was set. This introduces the possibility of additional variables such as accelarants applied in and around the bodies.
For every example of bodies being consumed in a fire, there is an example of a body being preserved from the fire. I understand your point, and don't discount the possibility that the Sodder children did die that night. However, until I'm convinced otherwise, I'll continue to explore the possibility that they are out there, somewhere.

As to the question of the older children remembering their identities...Keep in mind that Shawn Hornbeck was held captive close to his home and never attempted to contact anyone. The Sodder children incident occured in 1945, when kids were still taught to be respectful of all adults, so they would be even less likely to speak up. And, if they were introduced into new lives and properly "brainwashed" for lack of a better word, their previous lives may have become no more than a faded memory.

 

[Jenni979]

I am sure that it has been explored before, but is it known what exactly caused the rift between Mrs. Sodder and her family, namely her brother?

I know that the Sodders believed that their 5 children might be with her brother, but I didn't find any information as to why they would think that. I may have just missed it, and if I did I would greatly appreciate someone enlightening me.

I can't see the extended family caring enough to "rescue" 5 Sodder children and then setting the blaze. Why would they risk so much to save 5 children and then put the other children directly in harm's way?

Now, if the 5 ran away and went to thier uncle for help... I guess I can see that happening. But that doesn't explain the fire and other details. Unless the kids accidentally started the fire and then were terrified and bolted. But, you would think, if that were the case, that 1 of them would have eventually made contact. I mean, the Sodders went out of thier way to make sure that everyone knew how much they loved & missed thier 5 children.

As for the possibility that they children are/were alive and never made contact with the rest of their family... I find this completely plausible. Beyond Stockholm Syndrome there are several reasons I can think of that the children might not want to make contact with their parents. I have a friend who hasn't seen or spoken to her mother since she moved off to college and that has been over 12 years. She wasn't abused or molested, she just doesn't really care for her mother, as a person, and has decided to cut ties.

I guess the only thing I find unlikely is that a totally random person (or persons) decided to snatch 5 children from thier own bedroom, while their parents were feet away. I can see them being taken from the house if the kidnappers were close friends or relatives. At least then the children would be more likely to go without a fuss. That and most kidnappers have a "type" that they like to stick to. I could see someone trying to take either the boys or the girls, but not both together.

If they were taken and used as forced labor at the state home I can also see the children becoming bitter that no-one ever came to rescue them... Perhaps even beginning to blame their parents that they never came to "save them." Then, perhaps, if they did eventually leave that place they would want to get as far from that area as they could, and start new lives...

I don't know... I am confused and I have given myself a headache...

What I can say, with certainty, is that if someone told me that my child was dead and I believed in my heart-of-hearts that he was still alive... There is not a force on this earth that would stop me from looking for him. I feel for the Sodders... I wish that they could have found the answers they were looking for, in this life...

 

[Laura_Bean]

This case is very difficult for many reasons. So many odd things happening on one night. I don't believe and never have that the kids were stolen by "strangers". This town was and still is a pretty small town. I am sure most everyone knew everyone. `I wonder about the insurance guy who was quoted as saying, "Your house will burn and your kids will pay". He could have sent the fire and taken the children, and if the children knew him, which again, small town, they probably did, they might have gone willingly. If it was the mafia, I wonder if George might have been involved in something and had these people over the house in the past, and if that is the case, the kids would know him probably as a friend of their dad's. If it was the mother's brother, welp, I am sure they knew him. Sad part is, if it was anyone from town, anyone at all, the kids probably knew the person or people. One thing we have been checking on is the possibility of someone taking the children who ran an illegal adoption ring. The kids could get sold for adoption, and some or all of them may have been purchased for labor, someone who owned a farm and needed a child to help work that farm, etc. Also, one reason the kids may not have contacted their parents could be that they were told their parents died in the fire, and they had no one left. If they believed their parents were dead, they may never have gone back. Why go back when they were told "Your other siblings, your mother and father, were all killed in the fire"? One thing with that though, I would wonder why they never tried to contact their brother, the one who was in the military and was not in the house when it burned to the ground. Is it possible that the children were told their parents and other siblings died, and later told their oldest brother was killed while serving in the military? So they would have no reason to try and contact anyone?

 

[Laura_Bean]

And one more scenario - Let's say it was someone the children did NOT know. All the person would have to do, is have a gun or knife or something, grab Betty, the youngest, and tell the kids, come with me or get in the car or whatever. I guarentee these kids would not have allowed someone to kill one of them and would have done whatever they were told.

One interesting note::: A while back someone said that one possibility could have to do with the fact that it was Christmas Eve, and people tend to drink. If someone or even a group of people from town were angry with Mr. Sodder, which is possible, he had enemies in town because of his views on Mussolini, and they got together to play a "prank", they went over drunk as can be, accidentally or intentionally, set the fire, stole some things, and the kids saw them, they could have made the kids come back with them to their home. They wake up, the kids are there frightened, they have stolen items, they have the worst hangover ever, they hear about the fire and realize what they have done, and they do something with the kids. Maybe they kill the kids at that point, realizing their going to be in deep trouble, or maybe they hand the kids off to someone like an adoption place, or take them to the trans allegheny lunatic asylum, or maybe tell them to go away and never come back or they will kill the rest of the family, (threats), or something.

 

[Teresa Larson]

Back in those days the Mafia and the Coal miners never got along. I have always thought that Mr Sodder refused to pay his "Dues" so the Mob kidnapped his children and had his house burned down. I am sure that's why the whole investigation was botched. People were too scared to involve themselves. It was also very cold the night of the fire I live in Nebraska so I know first hand that sometimes vehicles will not start in the severe cold especially if they were diesel. I also doubt that the children perished in the fire. It wouldn't have burned hot enough to cremate them If it did then there should have been a lot of bone fragments and there wasn't.

 

[shadowangel]

I've read on other websites (which all sprang up after we got the proverbial ball rolling) that the noted pathologist that Shadow205 mentioned also stated that there were pieces of unburned cloth and other flammable material still intact after the fire. If this is true (and of course can't be confirmed without documentation) this would mean the fire was not the great all-consuming conflagration that some have made it out to be.

 

[keeponsearching]

What were their chores, and did they end up doing them?

 

[Laura_Bean]

This is one of the weird parts of this mystery. The children were said to have always done their chores before. But not this night. For some reason, the curtains were open, the door was unlocked and their chores weren't done. The mother chalked it up to the fact that they were very excited and forgot, and she locked the door. I always come back to this one fact, she locked the door, closed the curtains... I still kind of wonder, why was that door unlocked? It almost seems plausible to me, this would prove, the kids weren't in the house at the time of the fire. Could their mother have locked them outside? But if that is true, why didn't they just knock on the door and ask to be let in? Unless........

Okay scenario --- The kids go outside to do their chores. They stay up waaaaayyyy late playing, than they go outside, start doing the chores, and something happens... Two ideas from there... They surprise Mr. DrunkenBurglar who freaks out and does something. OR.... There was a bang on the roof the mom wakes up, she goes back to sleep and wakes up to flames. I wonder if...

Could it be possible that the toys the sister got the boys were war type toys? And maybe, could it be accidentally, one of them was a real pineapple? She worked at a five and dime store... Is that like a used store? If it was could a real pineapple have somehow gotten mixed in with toys? What if... What if one of the boys wanted to awaken his brother to let the kids in because they got locked out? If they didn't want their mother to find out how late they stayed up? So one of them throws what they think is a toy military pineapple, and boom! It actually sets fire to the roof? I maintain if the kids were scared enough, or thought they had killed their family, they may have run away.

 

[shadowangel]

The US military did not use a grenade or explosive/incendiary device as described in the various stories surrounding the disappearance of the children. "Pineapple" was the nickname given to the Mk 2 grenade, used by US forces during WW2. The Mk 2 was given this nickname due to its appearance--The cast iron casing was cross-cut in a manner making it resemble a pineapple. The grenade was highly explosive, slightly larger than the size of a grown mans' fist, and heavy.

The only grenades made from rubber were the Mk 47 riot grenades, which contained CS gas. These came into use several years after WW2 and are non-explosive/non-lethal.
There is currently another grenade in use, the GG-04, which is also used for riot control (it contains numerous hard rubber pellets).

 

[Teresa Larson]

This is one of the weird parts of this mystery. The children were said to have always done their chores before. But not this night. For some reason, the curtains were open, the door was unlocked and their chores weren't done. The mother chalked it up to the fact that they were very excited and forgot, and she locked the door. I always come back to this one fact, she locked the door, closed the curtains... I still kind of wonder, why was that door unlocked? It almost seems plausible to me, this would prove, the kids weren't in the house at the time of the fire. Could their mother have locked them outside? But if that is true, why didn't they just knock on the door and ask to be let in? Unless........

Okay scenario --- The kids go outside to do their chores. They stay up waaaaayyyy late playing, than they go outside, start doing the chores, and something happens... Two ideas from there... They surprise Mr. DrunkenBurglar who freaks out and does something. OR.... There was a bang on the roof the mom wakes up, she goes back to sleep and wakes up to flames. I wonder if...

Could it be possible that the toys the sister got the boys were war type toys? And maybe, could it be accidentally, one of them was a real pineapple? She worked at a five and dime store... Is that like a used store? If it was could a real pineapple have somehow gotten mixed in with toys? What if... What if one of the boys wanted to awaken his brother to let the kids in because they got locked out? If they didn't want their mother to find out how late they stayed up? So one of them throws what they think is a toy military pineapple, and boom! It actually sets fire to the roof? I maintain if the kids were scared enough, or thought they had killed their family, they may have run away.

A Five and Dime store was like a Woolworths, Walgreens, CVS Not a used item store. There isn't any way an explosive would have been bought at one of these stores.

 

[mom2six]

This case is such an intriguing puzzle. As my handle indicates, we also have a large family, most of the ages of our kids being very close to these children at the time of their vanishing. I can only imagine the immense pain, guilt, fear and anguish the surviving family went through and still must remember to this day. The rationalist in me says the simplest explanation is usually the truth, which supports the probability that the children died that night in the fire, but the details just don't all add up. How much is merely coincidence, or is it more sinister?

Having read all the data on this case in the WS forum over the past several days, it seems almost every tiny detail has been discussed ad nauseum, except for what seems to me to be one of the most peculiar unexplained details. I think it was even brought up again a page or two back, yet absolutely no discussion, and that is this:

From the second page of the article pictured on rootsweb linked on the very first page of the very first thread,
"Just last year the Sodders received half a photograph of a young man who looked remarkably like their son Louis. The photo was in a plain envelope with a Central City, Kentucky postmark. ... 'That letter, like all our others, had been opened and then resealed,' Sodder said."

What did this mean, exactly?! Were the tampered letters they received mailed directly to the family, or through one of the many detectives, who possibly could have opened and resealed? (why?) Or was every item received in the mail for the previous 20-odd years opened before delivery? If the latter, this fact seems to only point to a life-long conspiracy to obfuscate the truth and alienate the Sodders from their children. I can't imagine why complaints never had been made to the postal authorities that this was happening, or were they? Could this possibly be followed up? I wonder if someone was involved in monitoring the mail, if the individual may even have kept clues, like potentially a letter sent with the photograph, as mementoes? May be far fetched, but this person would have to work in the postal system somewhere in the area during this time period.

Granddaughter, if and when you read this, would you explore this aspect with your Grandmother? Does she remember the mail being tampered with, and if so, how long did this continue?

 

[mom2six]

This case also brings to mind a book I read a couple years ago about Jewish children hidden during the Holocaust. The children whose stories appeared in the book were of all ages, from very young infants to teens who were on their own, recounting their stories from just before the war broke out through the end of the war and reunification with their surviving parents or family. I think reading some of the emotional responses to being traumatically separated from their parents for an extended period of time and then the subsequent reactions to reunions can really shed light upon why the Sodder children, if they survived, may never have sought reunion with their family of origin. More than one of the holocaust survivors admitted to being torn between the two families they had known. Having had no contact with their own parents, and being loved and well taken care of by the host family did create conflicting emotions, even when the original families were loving, natural families. Being reunited with their own families could be just as traumatic as having been separated from them in the first place. I have no doubt, if they had the choice to make themselves, a few of these hidden holocaust children would have chosen just to stay put in the new family and avoid reigniting that pain of loss once again.

Compare that to what is known about the Sodder children, that they were shy, retiring sorts of people, I can see the possibility that if they were happily placed among new families, they may have been content enough to live with their happy memories and not face possibilities of renewed pain and emotional trauma searching for remnants of their original families, not knowing what may be found. Perhaps they are even feeling guilty that they were somewhat complicit in their disappearances because they did not take the first potential opportunity to try to make contact, whether that might have happened early on or at the age of majority.

The psychology of a traumatized child is highly complicated (speaking strictly as a lay person observer with no psych training), as accounts of the hidden holocaust children, as well as other kidnapped victims mentioned previously in these threads (we can also add the Jaycee Dugard experience as well), reveal. I see no compelling reason to assume the deaths of the children in the fire from their silence.

 

[Fukiyama]

Hello everyone. First time here in the Sodder forum. I've read through the three main threads, but if I get anything wrong, please correct me with a link to the original post. Thank you.

Question One
Referring to Post 150 in this third thread, was there a large presence of Freemasons on the area? Was Mr. Sodder connected in any way with such organizations?

Question Two
What was the layout of the Sodder property in 1945? Was there much lighting, like a lamp on top of a pole? At midnight, would the grounds around the house been well illuminated by sources of light besides the house's?

Question Three
What exactly were the weather conditions that night? "High winds", "rainy"? I take it it was overcast and if there was a moon that night, it was not visible?

Question Four
The daughter Marion was asleep on the couch when Mrs. Sodder checked. Where was the couch? Was it anywhere near the front door or a window that would have had its shade still open?

Question Five
The accounts all state that when Mrs. Sodder got up, she found the door and shades open. She then locked the door. Does this mean that she found the door unlocked and locked it or that she found the door actually open, so she closed it and then locked it?

Question Six
It has been stated that the upstairs consisted of a room at the top of the stairs and then a backroom off that with its own door, the front room with the stairs down being where the girls slept and the backroom being for the boys. Is this correct? Would the two oldest sons have to run through the girls' room to get to the stairs? I have read different versions of how the upstairs was laid out.

Question Seven
Did the family member Jonathan ever see through his plans to secure a grant and excavate the basement? If he did and it was reported here at WS, please leave a link to the specific post. I know there have been mixed messages on this.

Comments
There was the house, there were outbuildings, there were telephone poles along the road I'm assuming. In one of the original newspaper articles posted in the first thread, it was stated that the ladder was found 75 feet away, down an embankment. That makes it seem like it wasn't found anywhere close to the telephone poles for the burglar to have used it himself if indeed it was him who performed the deed.

I don't think the children wandered away by themselves (either because they were locked out or went searching for a Christmas tree or just felt like going for a walk into the West Virginia woods. By all accounts, the temperature was freezing cold with high winds, probably overcast with no moonlight. The wind chill must have been terrible. There was heavy snow on the ground. I know that if I got locked out of my home in the middle of the night and it's probably below zero, I'd be banging on the door to get someone's attention before I froze to death.

Along this same line, I just don't see the children out playing outside the house. And especially if the grounds outside the house were not well lit. The children may have all been keyed up for the holiday, but it was still midnight and even later. If anything, I think the children wouldn't be out looking for a tree or playing, they would be all snug in their beds because Santa doesn't come visit children who are awake on Christmas Eve.

 

[Kat]

The letter that was sent in a plain envelope with the picture of the young man was postmarked from Central City KY.

What in the world? How very odd.

I know that area. The town is in Muhlenberg county (pronounced mew-lyn-burg).

Back at that time there was nothing down there but farms for the most part. Strange.

ETA: Let me clarify---there was nothing down there but farms and coalmining. That's part of the western coal mining area. I swear, as soon as I posted the above I got to thinking about an uncle and he was a coal miner and wham...George was in coal right?

 

[Fukiyama]

ETA: Let me clarify---there was nothing down there but farms and coalmining. That's part of the western coal mining area. I swear, as soon as I posted the above I got to thinking about an uncle and he was a coal miner and wham...George was in coal right?

Not at the time, no. His company later hauled coal and his owned some mines himself, but according to the family, in 1945 he was only into trucking goods to local merchants.