WV WV - Sodder Family - 5 children, Christmas eve 1945 - #4

[karen beck]

I have been thinking and praying for the Sodder children since I read about them about 4 years ago. I have prayed and I believe a clue was given to me through prayer. The words " find one find them all" was given to me. They are all together and always were from the beginning of this whole thing.
I keep looking and praying for guidance to learn what happened to them. The little ones were never out side like the boys were to do their chores, the boys didn't sleep in the same room with the girls so how did they disappear together, I think the oldest daughter knew more then said.

 

[Berrybell]

John did not see the children at all. He did speak about it to family but was scared that those who did this would come and do something to his family.

BranyJ I would be interested in reading/hearing what you, your family and grandfather thought happened. Do you think the 5 siblings died in the fire or were kidnapped? Do you think it was arson or just a tragic event?

 

[DimyJimy]

Some things I have heard about this fire doesn't add up.

• A fire is started by throwing an incendiary device on a tin roof. Tin doesn't burn and on top of all that it the temperature was hovering around zero. That's not even possible.
• A insurance salesman yelled at George that his house would go up in smoke and his children would die. He also told George to stop saying bad things about Mussolini who was one of the most hated people in the world at the time. Either this didn't happen or this salesman was a lousy salesman.
• The county prosecutor who didn't want to follow up on the case because he had to live day to day with the people in this town. I'm thinking the prosecutor didn't follow up on the case because George had already compromised the site and there was nothing he could do.
• The Sodder kids were allowed to stay up late and even went outside to do chores late at night. Doesn't sound like a family that had been threatened by the mafia. The mother even woke up and found a door opened and the lights on. If I am the parent of a family being threatened I am going to check on all my children not go back to bed like it's no big deal.

I believe that George and some of the Sodders aren't being fully honest about what happened.

 

[ColyH]

I joined this site over a year ago and posted some of my thoughts on this case and since then I have read the entire thread and gathered all the information I could. I would also like to thank members of the Sodder family for posting on here and sharing what they know.

I will start with George Sodder being visited by someone who tried to sell him life insurance. This life insurance salesman had at one time employed George and even co-signed the loan for George to buy his house. When George doesn't want to buy the insurance the salesman has good reason to be upset because he is responsible for the debt if something happens to the him. That's when he tells George:

"Your house will go up in smoke and your children are going to be destroyed for the dirty remarks you have been making about Mussolini.'

I don't believe the salesman made these remarks but George misunderstood what he said. The salesman probably said something like "If your house burns down and you die your children's lives will be ruined." English is said to be one of the hardest languages to learn and lots of people never fully learn it. I also don't think people were upset as much as what George was saying about Mussolini as they were that he may have just talked and talked about it. The war was over, Mussolini had been out of power for two years and was no longer alive. People wanted to move on from the war.

The electrician who said the Sodders had faulty wiring in their house I believe was nothing more than someone trying to get a little more work.

What happened the night of the fire? I really believe the life insurance salesman sent those two guys to the Sodder place to scare them into buying life insurance. A family waking up to a cut telephone line, a ladder that have been moved and talk about that noise on the roof they heard may make the Sodders think they need insurance but something went wrong. The two criminals try to start a small fire (remember the salesman telling George his house would go up in smoke) but it is way too cold so the criminals decide to use a flammable liquid to get the fire started. Fire can be very hard to control and on that night the fire got out of control and the house burned.
Inside the house Jennie yells for everybody to get out. While the family is outside they realize five of the children are not outside but by that time it is to late as the house is engulfed in flames.

Back at the fire station the fire chief, who is also the salesman's bookkeeper, is told what is going on so if he gets called ignore it which is why he doesn't answer the phone when Marian calls. When a neighbor drives to the fire station and tells the fire chief about the fire he still believes this is just one of the scare tactics his boss is using so he tells him he can't drive the firetruck. The next morning he drives out to the farm only to see that the house has burnt down. i have always wondered why with a dusting of snow on the ground and how cold it was the fire chief didn't look for footprints.

I believed the kids died in the fire but because they were only there for a few hours they didn't find anything.

 

[Bigbri2019]

Hello all I'm new to this forum and I'm sure it's brought up before but why hasn't anyone gone back to the site of the fire and started a new search? A dig to find some clues to rather the children did die in the fire?

 

[ColyH]

Welcome to the group Websleuths Bigbri2019.

After the fire the Fire Chief told the Sodders to leave the burn site as it was until the Fire Marshall investigated. A couple of days passed and the Fire Marshall hadn't arrived so George plowed the burn site over with dirt because it was very troubling for the family to look at. Not long after the fire George saw a photo in a magazine of a young girl that looked like Betty and the family began to think the five children had not been killed in the fire. In 1949, George excavated the site and hired Oscar Hunter, who was a well known pathologist, to oversee the dig. During the excavation bone fragments were found and sent to the Smithsonian Institution for examination. It was discovered that the bone fragments came from the same lumbar vertebrae from someone at least 16 - 17 years old. It was also determined that the bone fragments had not been exposed to fire.

No other excavation was ever attempted and after Jennie died in 1989 the sign was taken down and the property was sold. A couple of years ago on here a grandson of George and Jennie Sodder had gotten permission from the current site to excavate the site but it was never done.

I believe the kids died that night and their bodies would have been recovered had their been a proper investigation done of the site after the fire.

 

[DarkDestroyer]

Thinking about the note on the back of the photograph.
I saw a post that tried to fill in gaps in broken English.
But has anyone tried to rearrange the lettering? It could be an anagram.

 

[ColyH]

I went to the Internet Anagram Server and tried anagrams for the words "Brother" and "Frankie" and also the phrase "I Love Brother Frankie" and nothing came up that related to this case.

I believe the photo was a cruel joke someone was playing on the Sodders.

 

[ilovepierre]

Hello all I'm new to this forum and I'm sure it's brought up before but why hasn't anyone gone back to the site of the fire and started a new search? A dig to find some clues to rather the children did die in the fire?

Hi, welcome!!
The site of the fire has been redone. A new house has been constructed and new concrete was poured for a new driveway. After all these years, I don’t know what clues would still remain at the site.

IMO

 

[Satch]

I went to the Internet Anagram Server and tried anagrams for the words "Brother" and "Frankie" and also the phrase "I Love Brother Frankie" and nothing came up that related to this case.

I believe the photo was a cruel joke someone was playing on the Sodders.

It has been confirmed that the photo is NOT a picture of Louis Sodder about 22 years later. If you look closely, it can be seen that the ears and mouth do not match.

Satch

 

[Dayday7]

Would it be possible for one of the exsisting relatvies still alive to do one of the DNA tests and see if any matches came up? Surely this could help possibly locates someone right?

 

[Rastus]

Hi all, first post here, reader for ages.

I find this case a comedy of errors. Almost like the sort of thing that happens when gossip overtakes reality.

I find the mafia angle rubbish. The mafia don't tiptoe around. They would go in with guns up, take the kids, kill the remaining Sodders then burn down the house. Job done.

These trucks that George thought had been tampered with when wanting to use them to access the upstairs. So what was the result there ? If they weren't consumed by fire, did they just start fine the following day when temps warmed a bit ? Were they confirmed to have been messed with. I feel like there's a lot of accusations thrown around by George but never proven or followed up on. The truck tampering should have been easy to have figured out afterwards. But nothing.

"After seeing a girl in a magazine picture of young ballet dancers in New York City who looked like one of his missing daughters, Betty, he drove all the way to the girl's school, where his repeated demands to see the girl himself were refused."

and

"When George heard later that a relative of Jennie's in Florida had children that looked similar to his, the relative had to prove the children were his own before George was satisfied."

and

"In 1967, Sodder went to the Houston area to investigate another tip. A woman there had written to the family, saying that Louis Sodder had revealed his true identity to her one night after having too much to drink. She believed that he and Maurice were both living in Texas somewhere. But Sodder and his son-in-law, Grover Paxton, were unable to speak with her. Police there were able to help them find the two men she had indicated, but they denied being the missing sons. Paxton said years later that doubts about that denial lingered in Sodder's mind for the rest of his life."

um and

"They were possibly taken back to Italy.If the children had survived all those years and were aware that their parents and siblings had survived too, the family believes, they may have avoided contact in order to keep them from harm."


The point of the above four examples are to me people unable to accept the likely outcome of the fire, going to extreme lengths to hang onto any hope or claim no matter how outrageous. I'm surprised George didn't turn up at the local McDonalds and ask Ronald to take the suit off for a better id.

Driving to NY demanding to see a student he doesn't know ? Demanding someone prove that they are their children ? Finding the Texas guys and I assume meeting them since they denied being the boys, but still having doubts ? Avoiding contact from Italy to keep the US Sodders from harm (I'm pretty sure the mafia wouldn't have cared in 1945 let alone years later)?

I think George at the least mentally never recovered from the fire and acts like this show he couldn't be trusted to look pragmatically the the evidence. Like no one wanted to be the one to tell George he was being ridiculous, so he was allowed to carry on. Same can be said about Jennie. I just don't think they could cope with it (understandable) and it took off from there.

Just because someone sees a UFO doesn't mean aliens. And just because full skeletons weren't found doesn't mean kidnapping.

IMO, I think if this fire happens in the 21st century then it's handled properly and traces of remains are found in the ashes.

Poor George and Jennie thought the kids were still out there, because emotionally they couldn't accept they weren't.

 

[ColyH]

I find the mafia angle rubbish. The mafia don't tiptoe around. They would go in with guns up, take the kids, kill the remaining Sodders then burn down the house. Job done.

I believe when they are talking about the mafia here they don't mean the Italian mafia. The term mafia is being used loosely and it just means a group involved in crimes.

These trucks that George thought had been tampered with when wanting to use them to access the upstairs. So what was the result there ? If they weren't consumed by fire, did they just start fine the following day when temps warmed a bit ? Were they confirmed to have been messed with. I feel like there's a lot of accusations thrown around by George but never proven or followed up on. The truck tampering should have been easy to have figured out afterwards. But nothing.

I believe those trucks didn't start because it was cold. Reading through the account of what happened the Sodders just mention that George couldn't get the truck to start but it's people who are writing about the story years later who are stating that there may have been foul play involving the trucks not starting.

"After seeing a girl in a magazine picture of young ballet dancers in New York City who looked like one of his missing daughters, Betty, he drove all the way to the girl's school, where his repeated demands to see the girl himself were refused."

My father had a friend of his who was killed in the Vietnam War. Years later my father was looking through a military magazine when he claimed that he saw a photo of his friend. His friend's brother lived in our neighborhood and my father went to his house to show him the photo. Turns out that the photo was not his friend or even looked close to him. I think that when you are grieving the loss of someone close your mind plays tricks on you.

"When George heard later that a relative of Jennie's in Florida had children that looked similar to his, the relative had to prove the children were his own before George was satisfied."

There must have been some real hard feelings in this family to think your relatives stole your children. I have some family members who can't stand one another but I could never see them accusing one another of something like this.

"In 1967, Sodder went to the Houston area to investigate another tip. A woman there had written to the family, saying that Louis Sodder had revealed his true identity to her one night after having too much to drink. She believed that he and Maurice were both living in Texas somewhere. But Sodder and his son-in-law, Grover Paxton, were unable to speak with her. Police there were able to help them find the two men she had indicated, but they denied being the missing sons. Paxton said years later that doubts about that denial lingered in Sodder's mind for the rest of his life."

Don't know if it's possible to check Houston police records to see if we could get the names of these two guys but have a feeling it would just confirm they were not Maurice and Louis.

"They were possibly taken back to Italy.If the children had survived all those years and were aware that their parents and siblings had survived too, the family believes, they may have avoided contact in order to keep them from harm."

There is no way anyone would have sent those kids to Italy. First of all, it would have been impossible to get them the proper documents to travel not to mention physically getting all five of them there. On top of all that Italy was a war torn country and a family taking in new children would have been a tough task for them.

I think George and Jennie could have used counseling to help them through their grief but back then that didn't happen.

 

[PaulR]

ColyH, exactly what I've thought all these years.

I've known some people like the Sodder parents and they would not have gone to counseling, because they would have said "we don't need to mourn our dead children, they are still alive."

 

[ColyH]

Hi Everyone,

This case is so haunting. Glad to see we still have some discussion going on.

Did you all see this?

[video=youtube;z0AKoCMydkc]

Ryan and Shane mention Websleuths toward the end. This is from Buzzfeed's UNSOLVED

Thanks for the link Tricia. I watched approx 20 min of the video & it really upset me how the two narrators made light of such a tragic situation. It just didn't seem right. But I do appreciate that this horrible tragedy is receiving some publicity. The Sodder parents seemed to try so hard to find out what happened to their missing kids. How awful.

I agree about the levity from the narrators. It was tragic and not the stuff of jokes. Just because it happened some 80 years ago does not make it less.

Anyway I am glad this story is being kept in the public eye.

I just saw a video of Shane and Ryan doing a live show of Buzzfeed Unsolved in Washington D.C. where they took questions from the audience. One of the audience members asked what case would they liked to see solved the most. Shane said JFK's assassination and Ryan said the Sodder Children because he believed they are are still out there.

 

[familyfinder]

I have just recently joined this site and I have been obsessed by this case for years. I have been researching every site, podcast and newspaper article I have been able to find. I did see that recently some of the grandchildren and great grandchildren have been answering some questions, I think it is amazing that the family is still keeping this tragedy on the front line.
I do have a few questions and if by chance I missed the answers I apologize.

Was there ever any mention of Mary Ann (Marion) being awake and seeing the children go up to bed or did she fall asleep while they were still playing? This to me seems vital in knowing whether or not the children ever made it upstairs and I have not been able to find anywhere that she said she seen them go to bed or that she feel asleep while they were still up.
Many people think that the children were kidnapped from the second floor bedroom but what if they never made it up to the bedroom and were taken right from the front door, which was open when Jennie got up for the phone call.

Believing that Maurice, Louis, Martha, Jennie and Betty were not in the house when the fire started I am wondering if anyone in the immediate family has submitted DNA to sites such as 23and me or Ancestry to see what matches came up. If the children lived (as I believe they did) maybe their children etc submitted DNA? I have found may ancestors that I didnt know existed for both my family and my clients families.

My biggest question is what is the motive. I have heard many theories, most of which are believable but I am having a hard time understanding why take 5 children then start a fire to try and kill the family? If you wanted to harm the family it would have been easier to leave all the children there or was it because whoever started the fire seen the opportunity to take the children because they seen them through the open door and blinds? But why? I feel like if that is the case they did not take them to harm them but then again why?

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Satch]

I have just recently joined this site and I have been obsessed by this case for years. I have been researching every site, podcast and newspaper article I have been able to find. I did see that recently some of the grandchildren and great grandchildren have been answering some questions, I think it is amazing that the family is still keeping this tragedy on the front line.
I do have a few questions and if by chance I missed the answers I apologize.

Was there ever any mention of Mary Ann (Marion) being awake and seeing the children go up to bed or did she fall asleep while they were still playing? This to me seems vital in knowing whether or not the children ever made it upstairs and I have not been able to find anywhere that she said she seen them go to bed or that she feel asleep while they were still up.
Many people think that the children were kidnapped from the second floor bedroom but what if they never made it up to the bedroom and were taken right from the front door, which was open when Jennie got up for the phone call.

Believing that Maurice, Louis, Martha, Jennie and Betty were not in the house when the fire started I am wondering if anyone in the immediate family has submitted DNA to sites such as 23and me or Ancestry to see what matches came up. If the children lived (as I believe they did) maybe their children etc submitted DNA? I have found may ancestors that I didnt know existed for both my family and my clients families.

My biggest question is what is the motive. I have heard many theories, most of which are believable but I am having a hard time understanding why take 5 children then start a fire to try and kill the family? If you wanted to harm the family it would have been easier to leave all the children there or was it because whoever started the fire seen the opportunity to take the children because they seen them through the open door and blinds? But why? I feel like if that is the case they did not take them to harm them but then again why?

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you for joining the site and this great case!

My take is that in your last paragraph, my belief that the children died in the fire. This is based on several reasons:

1.) Who comes to West Virginia of all places to burn down a home and also kidnap five kids? Wouldn't whoever did this, just set fire to the home and leave?

2.) I researched the Italian Mafia, and learned that there is no way that they would kidnap children, even if the kidnapping story were true. They would want to killed the main patriarch (George), but would not want to harm anyone else. Russian Mafia, yes.

3.) Much of what has been said and reported is from second and third-hand accounts that are questionable. George did not speak English very well, it was said that his phrases were often broken-up, so what he said, may not be what he meant.

4.) No way in hell that Marion sleeps through a kidnapping, no matter who sound a sleeper. This leads to the children being kidnapped outside, but that goes back to my #1 response. The motive is not there.

5.) The little town, and "Barney Fife" mentality of their law-enforcement, plus the backwords superstitions of some simple-minded townsfolk, likely are the main culprits for this case not being solved. In addition to George bulldozing the house, after being told not to, by investigators, this altered or destroyed critical evidence. I understand George's distrust of the community, but believe that these reasons still apply to this case not being solved. The Fire Department's ancient man-tier system for responsiveness to help, and being grossly understaffed, also prevented this case from being solved.

6.) The person or person's who moved the ladder so George couldn't start the truck and cut the phone lines in my view, threw the device up on the roof, which Jeannie heard that started the fire. Had this tragedy happened in modern times, with competent LE, with sharp minds, this case would be solved.

7.) The original lay-out of the house's interior needs to be found and investigated. (Title Deeds, Property Records from West Virginia City Hall.) This would tell us so much!

Satch

 

[familyfinder]

Thank you so much for the welcome and the great input. I do have some issues with several things but if you dont mind I would like to go through your points with some information that I found on a podcast that featured Jennie Henthorn the grand daughter of Jennie and George.

1. I agree that it does not seem plausible that someone would come to WV to start a fire and kidnap children when George was not much a a threat only outspoken in his opinions. But there are some very strange circumstances surrounding this fire.

2. I am not convinced that the mafia was involved, again George was no real threat just outspoken. Although he pissed off enough people in town with his comments.

3. Yes the language barrier could have been an issue however there was some animosity in the neighborhood that could have caused a vigilante to take matters into there own hands. but again who knows.

4.Marion being asleep before or after the children went to bed was one of the biggest issues I had. According to Jennie Marion fell asleep on the couch before seeing the children go up to bed, so maybe the children heard or seen something outside and went to see what it was and were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. People have been known to say that someone came in the house and took all five children but perhaps they never had to enter the house, according to the reports when Jennie got up the lights were still on, the door was still unlocked and the curtains were still open when she got up for the wrong number phone call.

5. I couldnt agree more about the inept way this whole situation was handled. Had it been recent we would have an answer. According to Jennie Henthorn her grandfather was told to Move quickly to fill in the hole because it was a hazard and that is why he chose to fill it in so quickly, although every other report states that he jumped the gun and that is why the investigation was soiled. However in 1949 he did excavate the entire basement along with a very prominent gentleman, Im sorry I cant remember his name off hand, and came up with nothing but some animal bones and one vertabrae that belong to someone older than Maurice. According to Jennie they also found a dictionary and several coins that her grandmother Jennie kept until the day she died. I find it very odd that there was no skeletal remains but the childrens dictionary was still intact.

6. The man that was caught should have been questioned more and in my opinion was dismissed to soon, his statement made no sense. Why cut phone or power lines as he said just to rob an outbuilding. The family does not even know his name according to Jennie. All of this just makes no sense.

And lastly the layout of the house would be very helpful. According to Jennie the family feels that maybe this was just meant to be a scare tactic to have George shut up but got out of hand. The most logical thought was that the children went outside and because the person there starting a fire was caught with five witnesses he panicked and took them. Jennie made it very clear that the family was not looking to say that there was a cover up or someone took the children they just wanted answers either way and unfortunately got no answers.

Its a very sad case but seems so unlikely that not one bone was found to prove the children were there and if some things remained like the dictionary you would think at least some bones remained.

I look forward to hearing your and any one else thoughts on this. I would love closure for a family that is now carrying this through the next generations..

Thank you
family finder,

 

[ColyH]

Just because they didn't find any remains doesn't mean they weren't there. When looking for the remains of the children they weren't going to find white skeletons that stood out like a sore thumb. The remains of the children would be burnt and charred like everything else in the burnt house and would have blended in. A fireman at the Sodder house after the fire could have been looking at one of the children and not even have known it.

 

[glahaye]

Does anyone here know if the remaining family has done DNA on a site like ancestry? On the off chance the missing children or their kids have profiles and have done DNA it would connect them.