Found Deceased WY - Gabby Petito, Grand Teton National Park #88

[Sundog]

I agree wholeheartedly.

I can't see the PD doing anything else in the circumstances.

Even Gabby's mom, who was talking to her on the phone during the Moab stop, didn't sense any real danger or call the Moab PD and insist her daughter was in trouble.

No one sensed she was in that sort of danger. And, at the time of the stop, she wasn't. Something happened quite a bit later that triggered the final attack.

The Moab PD could be more sensitive in their statements, but I don't think anyone can legitimately fault them for their actions that day.

MOO

Also, IIRC, early on after the Moab incident, Gabby's mother played down the seriousness of the situation saying that it was the result of the small living quarters in the van and spending all that time in those close quarters while travelling. If this case ever goes to trial in civil court, that statement will be part of the evidence, I would think.

 

[Megnut]

Had they arrested Gabby (or Brian), sure, it may have changed the course of events. But, there's no guarantee it would have. And they couldn't hold either one of them for more than just one night.

The Moab PD recognized domestic abuse, but the circumstances (and injuries) didn't rise to the level of arrests.

Maybe if Gabby would have said she was scared of Brian, but she didn't. Instead, she took responsibility, and her story matched Brian's story.

I get the feeling that van life was so stressful, as long as they pursued it, they were at risk.

But that trip was Gabby's dream, and it seems as though she was determined to see it through even though their relationship was souring.

If Gabby couldn't forsee Brian's growing tendency to violence, and neither of their parents picked up on it during the visit home or phone calls, I can't imagine LE could have foreseen it, especially because the Moab stop was so long before the murder.

I think a lot of departments deal with mild cases of domestic abuse and have to make judgment calls as to whether they should take stronger steps to intercede. On the one hand, they want to prevent injury, but on the other hand, they don't want to punish the participants if it's a one-off event.

Just MOO

I think the Moab PD could be more tactful in their statements, but I don't think the Petitos have a case they can win.

GP's family doesn't have to 'win' the lawsuit to effect change. Increased awareness, targeted trained, heightened accountability, forced change.

Five years from now, in a city that adopts whatever new policy and advanced training comes out of this, LE will encounter a domestic situation, maybe on the side of the road, a car a or truck or camper, a new Gabby and a new Brian, and that tact LE takes may save lives. We don't know how or what that will look like because we aren't there yet.

But that is the hope and IMO the is what GP's family is fighting for.

JMO

 

[housewife]

Moab PD didn't follow their own Lethality Assessment Protocol they had volunteered to use back in 2018.
They didn't follow their own policy.
That is the failure here.

"Moab police should have already been following the lethality assessment protocol, or LAP that Petito's family has since successfully lobbied to become mandatory in Utah and Florida.
"Moab had ostensibly adopted a LAP known as the Maryland Model, designed to "reduce risks and save lives" voluntarily back in 2018. It involves asking the victim a series of questions in search of specific red flags. A similar protocol is now required under a 2023 law for domestic violence calls across Utah.

From Joseph Petito:
"The official investigative report concludes the officers made serious mistakes. The Moab officers themselves googled the law, acknowledged they had no discretion, and that failing to follow the statute could cause victims to get killed. It’s all on video and in the transcript. Then they just chose to not obey the statute, and that’s exactly what happened. Gabby was killed."
"Moab still doesn’t get it," her father said. "This case has never been about money. It has always been about seeking accountability and fighting for change that will save lives. When law enforcement fails to follow the law, fails to protect, and refuses to learn from its mistakes, like the Moab police department, it puts us all at risk."

(Emphasis in bold is mine)
Edited: formatting

 

[nao]

Moo...if the police had asked more questions.... how would that of changed the outcome.? Neither G or B wanted to lay charges, nor G want to separate. The police cannot tell a person who they are allowed to date. Couples stay in violent relationships for years. Sure I do think there should be more safe houses and support. But even those things would not of made a difference in this case....moo

 

[housewife]

Also, IIRC, early on after the Moab incident, Gabby's mother played down the seriousness of the situation saying that it was the result of the small living quarters in the van and spending all that time in those close quarters while travelling. If this case ever goes to trial in civil court, that statement will be part of the evidence, I would think.

IMO I wouldn't blame the victim's mother for Brian's actions.

Gabby and her mother believed whatever the police told them. The police thought Gabby's injuries (and being locked out of her own mobile home) were not problematic! Gabby knew the police did not consider her to be in a dangerous situation, and she believed it.

Gabby and her mom had no idea the police were:
-Abusers themselves (Pratt)
-Not following their own policy
-Completely wrong in assessing the situation

We are told to believe and obey whatever the police tell us. And that's what Gabby did.

 

[GRT]

GP's family doesn't have to 'win' the lawsuit to effect change. Increased awareness, targeted trained, heightened accountability, forced change.

Five years from now, in a city that adopts whatever new policy and advanced training comes out of this, LE will encounter a domestic situation, maybe on the side of the road, a car a or truck or camper, a new Gabby and a new Brian, and that tact LE takes may save lives. We don't know how or what that will look like because we aren't there yet.

But that is the hope and IMO the is what GP's family is fighting for.

JMO

Like you, I think they want change.

I just don't think the Moab PD's actions in that situation were inappropriate, so I'm not sure what sort of change could happen.

 

[GRT]

IMO I wouldn't blame the victim's mother for Brian's actions.

Gabby and her mother believed whatever the police told them. The police thought Gabby's injuries (and being locked out of her own mobile home) were not problematic! Gabby knew the police did not consider her to be in a dangerous situation, and she believed it.

Gabby and her mom had no idea the police were:
-Abusers themselves (Pratt)
-Not following their own policy
-Completely wrong in assessing the situation

We are told to believe and obey whatever the police tell us. And that's what Gabby did.

How would following that volunteer policy have kept Gabby from being murdered more than two weeks later?

From the videos of the encounter, it appears the PD asked most, if not all, of the LAP questions and separated the couple. But, I can't find anything in the policy that would have changed the outcome that day.

Here are the 11 questions:

According to the Domestic Violence Lethality Screen for First Responders, the 11 specially-designed questions are:

1. Has your partner ever used a weapon against you or threatened you with a weapon?
2. Has he or she ever threatened to kill you or your children?
3. Do you think he or she may try to kill you?
4. Does your partner have a gun, or can he or she get one easily?
5. Has he or she ever choked (strangled) you?
6. Is your partner violently or constantly jealous, or does he or she control most of your daily activities?
7. Have you left your partner or separated from them after living together or being married?
8. Is he or she employed?
9. Has your partner ever tried to kill him or herself?
10. Do you have a child that he or she knows is not theirs?
11. Does your partner follow or spy on you, or leavethreatening messages?

 

[LinasK]

Had they arrested Gabby (or Brian), sure, it may have changed the course of events. But, there's no guarantee it would have. And they couldn't hold either one of them for more than just one night.

The Moab PD recognized domestic abuse, but the circumstances (and injuries) didn't rise to the level of arrests.

Maybe if Gabby would have said she was scared of Brian, but she didn't. Instead, she took responsibility, and her story matched Brian's story.

I get the feeling that van life was so stressful, as long as they pursued it, they were at risk.

But that trip was Gabby's dream, and it seems as though she was determined to see it through even though their relationship was souring.

If Gabby couldn't forsee Brian's growing tendency to violence, and neither of their parents picked up on it during the visit home or phone calls, I can't imagine LE could have foreseen it, especially because the Moab stop was so long before the murder.

I think a lot of departments deal with mild cases of domestic abuse and have to make judgment calls as to whether they should take stronger steps to intercede. On the one hand, they want to prevent injury, but on the other hand, they don't want to punish the participants if it's a one-off event.

Just MOO

I think the Moab PD could be more tactful in their statements, but I don't think the Petitos have a case they can win.

It wasn't taking responsibility, It was blaming herself, which is what DV victims tend to do. Brian was the instigator of the incident by grabbing her phone away. I hope that they win their suit.

 

[LinasK]

How would following that volunteer policy have kept Gabby from being murdered more than two weeks later?

From the videos of the encounter, it appears the PD asked most, if not all, of the LAP questions and separated the couple. But, I can't find anything in the policy that would have changed the outcome that day.

Here are the 11 questions:

If they could have convinced Gabby that she was in a DV relationship, maybe she would have left him and still been alive today.

 

[wnk]

Let's not also forget the effect the Moab encounter had on BL. It wasn't just that he wasn't held accountable for harming GP; he was told that he was in the right, and that their relationship problems were her fault. He was assured, repeatedly, that he was the victim in the situation.

GP learned that she couldn't turn to law enforcement for help, and BL learned that how he'd been treating her was totally fine and understandable, because she was the problem.

IMO, the Moab stop only empowered him to push the DV further, because he saw he could talk his way out of it, and because she was a little blonde with mental health issues, people would believe him.

 

[LinasK]

Let's not also forget the effect the Moab encounter had on BL. It wasn't just that he wasn't held accountable for harming GP; he was told that he was in the right, and that their relationship problems were her fault. He was assured, repeatedly, that he was the victim in the situation.

GP learned that she couldn't turn to law enforcement for help, and BL learned that how he'd been treating her was totally fine and understandable, because she was the problem.

IMO, the Moab stop only empowered him to push the DV further, because he saw he could talk his way out of it, and because she was a little blonde with mental health issues, people would believe him.

Exactly. And he gaslighted them by being cool, calm, and collected while portraying her as hysterical. The out of control hysterical female.

 

[housewife]

don't think Moab PD asked Gabby any of these questions directly.

I will highlight the pertinent questions in red below:

1. Has your partner ever used a weapon against you or threatened you with a weapon?
(Unsure if asked)
We know Brian had access to a gun.
We don't know if other weapons were threatened.

2. Has he or she ever threatened to kill you or your children?
(Unsure if asked)
We know Brian tried to lock Gabby out of their shared mobile home and abandon her without her possessions in another state.

3. Do you think he or she may try to kill you?
(Unsure if asked)
We know Gabby took a picture of her injuries for documentation. She realized something was wrong, despite what the Moab PD said.

4. Does your partner have a gun, or can he or she get one easily?
(Unsure if asked)
Yes, from his parents' house

5. Has he or she ever choked (strangled) you?
(Unsure if asked)
Yes, as evidenced by blood smears over Gabby's nose and detailing how Brian grabbed her face covering her mouth area.

6. Is your partner violently or constantly jealous, or does he or she control most of your daily activities?
(Unsure if asked)
Yes, Gabby's best (and only) friend, Rose, said Brian was jealous of their friendship.
He also monitored her blog postings.
Brian was very aware of every post Gabby made on social media, and was very critical of any success with her "little" blog. Experts believe Brian eventually started posting as Gabby after her death to paint himself in a better light.

7. Have you left your partner or separated from them after living together or being married?
(Unsure if asked)

8. Is he or she employed?
(Unsure if asked)
Ha! NO.

9. Has your partner ever tried to kill him or herself?
(Unsure if asked)
We know Brian had considered suicide as evidenced by his writing. Gabby knew he had depressive episodes (manipulative or authentic). "Please stop crying and calling me names". Abusers threaten suicide to emotionally manipulate victims.
We also know Brian was prescribed medicine for anxiety and... just decided to stop taking it.

10. Do you have a child that he or she knows is not theirs?

11. Does your partner follow or spy on you, or leavethreatening messages?
(Unsure if asked)
Brian spied on Gabby and Rose's plans to go out for an evening and sabotaged their attempt by stealing Gabby's ID.
Brian would also call Gabby names:
"Please stop crying and calling me names"

 

[GRT]

It wasn't taking responsibility, It was blaming herself, which is what DV victims tend to do. Brian was the instigator of the incident by grabbing her phone away. I hope that they win their suit.

I'd like to see the Gabby Petito Foundation take on teaching high school students how to recognize when they're in dangerous relationships and how to get out.

Ultimately, the choice will always be up to the victim in an abusive relationship, and if she knows what to look for before she even gets in a relationship, maybe she'll be strong enough to get out.

I'd also like to see efforts to teach young males that striking a female is never okay--even if they grew up in a family where that happened.

But in this case, I don't know that LE could have done much differently. Gabby was on the phone to her mother, crying, and her own mother wasn't able to talk her into leaving Brian. I just don't see how the officers could have done it.

I think the intervention has to start earlier--much earlier--when the kids are still in school, so the girls learn to set high goals for themselves and develop the sort of self-worth and self-confidence that doesn't allow them to play second fiddle to controlling and manipulative males.

all jmoo

 

[NCWatcher]

I'd like to see the Gabby Petito Foundation take on teaching high school students how to recognize when they're in dangerous relationships and how to get out.

Ultimately, the choice will always be up to the victim in an abusive relationship, and if she knows what to look for before she even gets in a relationship, maybe she'll be strong enough to get out.

I'd also like to see efforts to teach young males that striking a female is never okay--even if they grew up in a family where that happened.

But in this case, I don't know that LE could have done much differently. Gabby was on the phone to her mother, crying, and her own mother wasn't able to talk her into leaving Brian. I just don't see how the officers could have done it.

I think the intervention has to start earlier--much earlier--when the kids are still in school, so the girls learn to set high goals for themselves and develop the sort of self-worth and self-confidence that doesn't allow them to play second fiddle to controlling and manipulative males.

all jmoo

I agree completely. So far as the lawsuit for wrongful death goes, I'm still not seeing how LE not deciding GP must be lying about what happened and instead blaming herself, LE deciding it was a mental health crisis/travelers' strain when both GP & BL seemed to say it was (& GP's mother also apparently believed it was) and GP's death 2 weeks later 500 miles from Moab.

I'm not the only one who doesn't see the connection-- several posters have asked where the specific connection lies between the officers' actions and GP's death. (Because the suit is for wrongful death, a nexus has to be shown. Failure to follow Policy X isn't enough.) In response, some posters have suggested if BL had been arrested and held in jail overnight (longer than that wasn't going to happen) GP might have come to her senses. That seems very unlikely IMO-- but even if it was "possible," it would seem a possibility is not enough to be responsible for a wrongful death weeks later. I'm also not so sure GP & BL were completely naive so far as LE goes. (Dining/dashing, suggestions of possible shoplifting, drugs) So I'm not sure that BL going to jail for a night would have been such a huge deal that things would have changed for GP.

Other posters have said if BL was in jail, LE could have talked GP into leaving BL. That seems to suggest it is dept policy to take the identified victim into custody as well as the identified aggressor. That way, LE can work on educating the victim. But how can that be? How can a victim be taken into custody? What about her/his rights? And are regular officers expected to do this education of victims? Act as counselors/social workers? At most I'd think identified victims (at least those with more minor injuries like scratches who don't require an ER visit) might be given phone numbers to call if they wish (hotlines including DV hotlines, social workers, ways to find a "safe house") At the scene the female park ranger claims she shared her views with GP & that clearly didn't "make GP see the light." (It will be interesting to find out in court what the ranger actually said IMO.)

Had education efforts of the sort described in the quoted post above happened earlier in GP's life she might never have become involved with BL or if she had, she might have left the relationship years before. But "educating" a reportedly-engaged to be married, apparently-committed 22-year old female about her years-long toxic relationship in one night wasn't ever going to happen even if there was a legal provision for a victim to be taken into custody (AND LE had enough information about the relationship after one encounter with the couple and had the training to effectively carry out an educational intervention.) I can, however, imagine BL might have been more of an imminent threat to GP after spending a night in jail. We do know that happens. I'm not suggesting that means aggressors shouldn't be jailed. But I don't think it's realistic to suggest putting an identified aggressor in jail for a night will produce only benefits for an identified victim.
MOO

 

[Cedars]

I agree completely. So far as the lawsuit for wrongful death goes, I'm still not seeing how LE not deciding GP must be lying about what happened and instead blaming herself, LE deciding it was a mental health crisis/travelers' strain when both GP & BL seemed to say it was (& GP's mother also apparently believed it was) and GP's death 2 weeks later 500 miles from Moab.

I'm not the only one who doesn't see the connection-- several posters have asked where the specific connection lies between the officers' actions and GP's death. (Because the suit is for wrongful death, a nexus has to be shown. Failure to follow Policy X isn't enough.) In response, some posters have suggested if BL had been arrested and held in jail overnight (longer than that wasn't going to happen) GP might have come to her senses. That seems very unlikely IMO-- but even if it was "possible," it would seem a possibility is not enough to be responsible for a wrongful death weeks later. I'm also not so sure GP & BL were completely naive so far as LE goes. (Dining/dashing, suggestions of possible shoplifting, drugs) So I'm not sure that BL going to jail for a night would have been such a huge deal that things would have changed for GP.

Other posters have said if BL was in jail, LE could have talked GP into leaving BL. That seems to suggest it is dept policy to take the identified victim into custody as well as the identified aggressor. That way, LE can work on educating the victim. But how can that be? How can a victim be taken into custody? What about her/his rights? And are regular officers expected to do this education of victims? Act as counselors/social workers? At most I'd think identified victims (at least those with more minor injuries like scratches who don't require an ER visit) might be given phone numbers to call if they wish (hotlines including DV hotlines, social workers, ways to find a "safe house") At the scene the female park ranger claims she shared her views with GP & that clearly didn't "make GP see the light." (It will be interesting to find out in court what the ranger actually said IMO.)

Had education efforts of the sort described in the quoted post above happened earlier in GP's life she might never have become involved with BL or if she had, she might have left the relationship years before. But "educating" a reportedly-engaged to be married, apparently-committed 22-year old female about her years-long toxic relationship in one night wasn't ever going to happen even if there was a legal provision for a victim to be taken into custody (AND LE had enough information about the relationship after one encounter with the couple and had the training to effectively carry out an educational intervention.) I can, however, imagine BL might have been more of an imminent threat to GP after spending a night in jail. We do know that happens. I'm not suggesting that means aggressors shouldn't be jailed. But I don't think it's realistic to suggest putting an identified aggressor in jail for a night will produce only benefits for an identified victim.
MOO

I agree. Also, no one knows the sequence of events/actions/ words that led to her murder. The lawsuit seems to presume there was some sort of inevitiblility about it, but no one can know that. I'm sure the vast majority of cases of DV and cooercive control, don't end in murder.

I think it's also legitimate to suggest that the diagnosis that this was a relationship of domestic violence and coercive control has happened because people saw the video after she'd gone missing and BL was alive and well. If they had seen this video before then - along with the hundreds of hours of other intenventions officers have assisted at, where both members of the couple are still alive and well - it might add a wider perspective that I think is missing from this lawsuit

JMO