GUILTY Yoselyn Ortega charged with 2 counts ea-1st and 2nd Degree Murder of Krim Children

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There would have to be alot of coincidences for the elevator witness to have identified the wrong children. First, the children were of the right age range, with a girl about 6 and a todder boy in a stroller. There are lots of kids in a building of this type, but not that many, and that particular combination is more rare. Most times I see just one kid with a nanny so two kids is something that would stick out to me. NYC apartments are generally too small for multiple kids, so most families with multiple kids move to the suburbs when they have a school age child. Also, usually when I see multiple kids it is with a parent, not a nanny. So I imagine there would be a very small handful - if any at all - of children in that building with that combination of gender and age with a nanny.

Second, the girl mentioned dancing to the elevator witness. That would be very coincidental for another child to have mentioned that, given that Lulu was suppose to have been at dancing class at that time and might have mentioned dancing because maybe she thought she was going dancing. Also, I am not sure if this is true or not, but if in fact the elevator witness actually saw the nanny and two kids exit at the second floor (the same floor as the Krims), or even if they saw them exit at a floor below their own, that too would be very coincidental for the family not to be them. IMO, it has to be them.

Between the two things, right age range and gender, and child mentioning dancing, it would be pretty coincidental. Add to that the fact (possibly?) that you have the right age and gender, with a child mentioning dancing also getting off on the Krims floor, and I think it is pretty clear cut. Question is where was Nanny with kids between 3:15-4:50?

NYC is a very impersonal place and kids in these buildings really do look interchangeable, especially when you mostly see them in the elevators and they are all buddled up in their jackets, and are in strollers, etc. You don't really recognize or even see their faces. So I think it is much easier to recognize a family group by recognizing the adult in that group, rather than the kids themselves. NYC is not the type of place where, even if you see a family everyday, you will say, "Oh those are the Smith kids." Rather, you might recoginze the man or woman with the kids, but you wouldn't be able to pick out which kids go with which parent, because they all look alike. I know personally if I was in this situation, I would only be able to identify the kids after I saw the picture of the parent or nanny and then I could identify the kids indirectly.

Doorman too don't always see people go in the building. Sometimes, they take a break to go to the bathroom and someone else fills in for a few minutes, or they might help pick up the USPS packages, or they might be outside hailing a cab for someone. So while it is the case that the front door is always monitored, sometimes, they switch off responsibilites on that for a few minutes. I am not sure if this building has two doorman or a doorman and a porter or concierge, but often there are 2 people who swipe off duties.

Also the doorman has to be wrong. He had to have seen them at some time and maybe didn't realize it or else he was on a break. Nanny had to have picked Lulu up at school so she had to have entered the building sometime between 3:15-5:30, and doorman, as I understand it, never saw her entered, so if you took the doorman's word literally, she and the kids would not be in the building at all. We know that is not true, as we know Lulu came home after school, so it must have been the case that the doorman just didn't see them. They had to have entered the building sometime after 3:15 and no one saw them in the building except the elevator witness, as I understand. So the fact that the doorman did not see them has absolutely no bearing on whether the elevator witness identified the right family, as some have said that the fact that the doorman did not see them must mean that the elevator witness is wrong. Holding true to the doorman would also mean that they were not in the apartment at all, or that Lulu never came home from school, either of which we know is not correct so we cannot draw conclusions from the doorman.

Sometimes, I think when the doorman is busy, hailing a cab, etc., he just kinda monitors the door to make sure random people off the street are not coming in. So he might have just saw a nanny and kids entering, not knowing which specific nanny and kids they were, but not stopping and questioning, because they looked like they belonged there. A nanny with two little kids does not pose much a security threat, so them entering might have went over his head if he was busy doing other stuff ("oh, just another nanny with kids,I am not going to stop what I am doing to go see exactly which nanny and kids they are because it is not necessary to know"). Also, as I mentioned, kids with nannies look interchangeable, and especially if this doorman was new, as I think he was, he might not have known specific names or faces or perhaps not be able to say definitely whether or not he saw them. He might not know.

Good post, first of all Lulu had an infectious smile unlike many others,
Second of all, If I had not seen the nanny get wheeled to an ambulance I may not have connected that I had seen them that day, or that they were the victims. By seeing the nanny wheeled out, I was in shock because I was saying “that was her in the elevator OMG the poor beautiful children” it was them, then I saw pictures, and my heart broke….

The doormen were called into DA office for further investigative questions. I was not. We all know Lulu did not walk home alone from school.
JUST ANOTHER NOTE: I don’t like that the doorman don’t know what is going on. I don’t like that a reporter got into my building yesterday and knocked on my door, un-announced and the doorman did not know how she got in. I asked her to leave the building, and called from my house phone downstairs....
DM reply----She must have gone to visit a tenant then knocked on doors was not a reply I wanted to hear.
YAP I am doing something about the DM on Monday
 
I'm not going to go into your speculations, but I wanted to comment on the part I quoted. As long as we're just speculating, why would her jealousy have to be about money? If I were in her place, I'd be less envious of the money they had that I didn't, and more envious of the children's mother being able to spend so much time with them while they're young and watch them grow up after missing out on so much of it with my own child. She may have also been feeling jealousy (and guilt) because of all of the things these parents are able to give and do for their children that she'll never have a chance to do for hers. Not an excuse, but possibly an explanation. I know that in my own life, money means nothing in the long run, but my sons mean everything. MOO


Whatever reason one gets into envy and jealousy is often the thoughts of wanting something someone else has...
or you did not get a fair share of the pie, some think they have been wronged.
The kind of anger and rage it can produce is not reasonable, but to harm little ones - one must be the devil incarnate. :furious:
The way she harmed the little ones is rage, evil rage.
Good people get jealous too but don’t harm anyone, they just eat themselves up.
 
I'm not going to go into your speculations, but I wanted to comment on the part I quoted. As long as we're just speculating, why would her jealousy have to be about money? If I were in her place, I'd be less envious of the money they had that I didn't, and more envious of the children's mother being able to spend so much time with them while they're young and watch them grow up after missing out on so much of it with my own child. She may have also been feeling jealousy (and guilt) because of all of the things these parents are able to give and do for their children that she'll never have a chance to do for hers. Not an excuse, but possibly an explanation. I know that in my own life, money means nothing in the long run, but my sons mean everything. MOO

Good post. Might be a combination of envy about many things.

YO was lucky however that she had options. She had family willing to house and care for her in NYC and also in the DR. Seems like a very close, wonderful supportive family. I doubt they would take care of her little boy and deny her.

She also had an education. If she stayed in NYC and that meant missing her son's childhood , she must have CHOSEN that option between her choices.
 
These boards are all about us speculating, reading clues through our perspectives, and giving opinions. I am sharing mine....within the rules.

We are all trying to find the motivation for the merciless slaughter of two defenseless children by a caretaker they probably loved and certainly did not fear. We are trying to understand how a woman who has held those babies for two years....plunges a knifeinto them repeatedly, looking at their terrified little faces, and then waits for the satisfaction of seeing their Mother destroyed.

YO had supportive family. And the living situation in the DR, if you saw the photos of the family home, were hardly a third world hovel. THE idea that this family is third world poor is also a "baseless assumption." The Krims actually stayed in their home and were entertained by the family for several days according to Marina's journal. I doubt the Krims would take advantage of a poor third world family or stay in primitive conditions.

In any event, I cannot attribute any cocoon of victimhood to YO...as if any finanicial disparity somehow condones THIS kind of envy and rage. That makes the KRIMS somehow responsible for their babies deaths because...they had too much? Or makes what YO did just a little bit...understandable?

In any event, if the struggling "third world" assumption does not fit YO then she left HER child only because she "loved NYC" as her sister said. I see that as a woman putting HER needs before her child.

And YO was educated. I too want to know her work history. Her family appears hrad working and admirable in every way. But she may have been The one in the family that was the exception.

YO seems to feel she is the "victim" If she had snapped, one would assume her first words would have been for those children and terrible remorse. But instead, she was justifying her actions, repeating her gripes. Maybe she has bought into feeling sorry for herself vs the Krims...that they OWE her something because life hasn't given her material things. Obviously, working five more hours was not seen as "helping" but so infuriated her that she did The UNthinkable.

Maybe she will make herself a victim in court . It might be a winner if her attorneys can spin the Krims as evil ...because they had too much materially. Maybe YO is not done yet with destroying the Krims because of her envy and jealously.

I want to add that if one views the photos on MK's blog, the apartment is not furnished in grand style or expensive antique furnishings. It looked functional for a young family. The Krims were not living the style of a NY penthouse. To me the apt looked to have furnishings from The Container Store and Ikea.
 
What is holding up the Arraignment?
I wonder if Valerie Van Leer-Greenberg, the attorney who recently took YO's case, requested "some time" before the arraignment occurs ... to be able to communicate with YO somewhat (to get some details directly from her, to hear her story etc)?

Or it doesn't work that way? (meaning arraignment just occurs whenever .. and attorneys can not request to postpone one...)
 
I just hope this case remains about what this one Nanny did to these two children...and not, as other cases have done, about some larger metanarrative about immigration, disparity between socio-economic classes, or how much wealthy people should pay their nannies.

It seems that these kind of diversions work to make people forget who the real victims are...because they play on societal issues that anger us.

The Krim children were not responsible for any "wrongs" in todays America...and their deaths should not be burdened with the weight of them. This is about their brutal deaths and one woman, YO. I hope the case remains exactly that.
 
Anybody else notice a pattern here? YO is the baby of a large family. When she decides she wants to move to NYC because she "loves it"...she has a problem...her CHILD. But her sister steps in and takes care of YO's problem...and agrees to raise and parent that child while YO moves thousands of miles away. Somebody ELSE took care of YO's problem so she could avoid responsibility.

When YO gets to NYC, is she responsible for HERSELF? No, another sister lets her live with her, provides for her. Was she just working part time as a Nanny. What a luxury to live inNYC and not have to work two jobs to pay rent and eat. No, her family once again enabled YO NOT to face responsibility.

Then YO decides she wants her own place and her son with her. She wants him in PRIVATE school. Once again. the family indulges her "wants" but this time with a time limit....her brother pays tuition for ONE year. Then it will be up to YO. Maybe they were tired of YO just indulging herself without responsibility for the COSTS of her decisons.Maybe they told her the gravy train had stopped.

Now she thinks the Krims will "give" to her as her family used to do. Instead, they offer her more WORK. YO does not want WORK. She didn't work at raising her own son...leaving him to indulge herself. Her family indulged her over and over.

She is FURIOUS now that people expect her to TAKE RESPONSIBILITY. Sounds like she spent her whole life successfully avoiding it.

People really need to investigate their nanny's better, some people think the world owes them.
 
Good post, first of all Lulu had an infectious smile unlike many others,
Second of all, If I had not seen the nanny get wheeled to an ambulance I may not have connected that I had seen them that day, or that they were the victims. By seeing the nanny wheeled out, I was in shock because I was saying “that was her in the elevator OMG the poor beautiful children” it was them, then I saw pictures, and my heart broke….

The doormen were called into DA office for further investigative questions. I was not. We all know Lulu did not walk home alone from school.
JUST ANOTHER NOTE: I don’t like that the doorman don’t know what is going on. I don’t like that a reporter got into my building yesterday and knocked on my door, un-announced and the doorman did not know how she got in. I asked her to leave the building, and called from my house phone downstairs....
DM reply----She must have gone to visit a tenant then knocked on doors was not a reply I wanted to hear.
YAP I am doing something about the DM on Monday

Well, we know the doorman was wrong about something, because lulu had to have walked in the door sometime. So he either does not watch the people or he does what I mentioned, that is, looks who is coming in but if busy & doesn't look exactly who they are, and does not say anything if they look like they belong. If the first one, then that is a serious breach and I hope there are video cameras backing up who comes in and out because I would hate the defense to use the doorman missing them as an opportunity for them to argue, "if the doorman missed them maybe he missed the "real" killer coming to the luxury apartment at 5pm to murder 2 children without motive." I would just hate for that gap to even give the chance for the defense to argue reasonable doubt. Perhaps that is why DA is talking to this guy.

If the second one, unfortunately I think some doorman do that. And if there is not a backup porter or concierge then if they are out hailing cab or helping someone else, there is a gap in airtight security bc they may not notice who exactly comes in. A nanny w 2 kids fits in. A nicely dressed reporter fits in, and if she or he confidently strutted in the building acting like she or he belonged, a timid or busy doorman might not stop them. I would be a little upset that it is now advertised all over NYC that the doorman on this building may not be that careful and that he does not notice who comes in and out. I doubt anyone else in the building would let a reporter in their home, maybe they would meet in the lobby, but their actua apartment? Seems odd too the doorman would not know exactly, oh, they were going to apartment 8g or something? Instead he gave a vague answer.
 
Since there's really no new news I haven't been following the story much lately. Has anyone read if there has been an official burial for the children yet, I do know about the memorial service last weekend. Are the Krim's still in NY or have they gone back to CA with family? Is the <modsnip> Nanny still in the hospital?

<modsnip>.

<modsnip>?
 
<modsnip>YO's attorney is Valerie Van Leer-Greenberg. Anyone know if this is true?"

------

It was reported in the Media ... - so i would assume it's true.
 
Now would be a good time to arraign YO because media is busy covering the Petraeus affair and resignation.
 
<modsnip>YO's attorney is Valerie Van Leer-Greenberg. Anyone know if this is true?"

------

It was reported in the Media ... - so i would assume it's true.

Last edited by Salem; Today at 04:39 PM. Reason: Thanks DM - do you have a link per chance?
BBM

But of course... :fence:

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8545927&postcount=401"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame] :D

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YO's high school age son was brought to the Bronx when she moved there.

It appears that he was raised in the Dominican Republic. Perhaps, he spoke English well. Perhaps, he spoke very little. Perhaps, he spoke English, but was less proficient in the reading and writing of the English language. It doesn't really matter.

In any event, even if backed financially by a wealthy family member, it would be a very difficult transition to a so-called NYC "private school" for a high school age student of his age newly arrived from the DR.

YO's brother was paying her son's first year's "private" HS tuition in the Bronx according to recent links posted.

Off the top of my head, we have Horace Mann, Riverdale Country Day and Fieldston private schools located in the Bronx (Riverdale section). HS tuition: all above 35,000. per year.

I believe the precise term should be PAROCHIAL school in the Bronx. This is my opinion only. Religious affiliation: likely Roman Catholic. MSM may not be naming son's school to protect his privacy as well as his peers': IMO, this is as it should be. However, Bronx "private" school the way readers are assuming. IMO, NO.

These schools fill a niche particularly in the Bronx (and other places) where they may be thought by some to be a better option than that boroughs' public high schools, particularly for a newcomer in his age and grade range.

Additionally, the yearly tuition of your average NYC Roman Catholic High School is nowhere, anywhere, near the cost of an average NYC "private" high school tuition.

Snipped

Tuition at New York City schools has long outpaced the national average. This past year, national median tuition for 12th grade was $21,695, according to the National Association of Independent Schools. In New York City, it was $35,475.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303936704576395812038878314.html
 
Yeah, well sorry, haven't been here everyday lately. Just trying to do a quick catch up.
Salem, the moderator was asking Darkman the poster for a link to the source of his info so I jumped in and supplied one for her, followed quickly by Darkman also linking to a post of his with a link.

None of it had anything to do with you. Sorry if it confused you.
 
Salem is "her", then... (previously i wasn't sure if Salem is he or she...) :D

P.S. .. and as she corrected me recently ... she is not just a "Moderator" but also an "Admin" :)
 
YO's high school age son was brought to the Bronx when she moved there.

It appears that he was raised in the Dominican Republic. Perhaps, he spoke English well. Perhaps, he spoke very little. Perhaps, he spoke English, but was less proficient in the reading and writing of the English language. It doesn't really matter.

In any event, even if backed financially by a wealthy family member, it would be a very difficult transition to a so-called NYC "private school" for a high school age student of his age newly arrived from the DR.

YO's brother was paying her son's first year's "private" HS tuition in the Bronx according to recent links posted.

Off the top of my head, we have Horace Mann, Riverdale Country Day and Fieldston private schools located in the Bronx (Riverdale section). HS tuition: all above 35,000. per year.

I believe the precise term should be PAROCHIAL school in the Bronx. This is my opinion only. Religious affiliation: likely Roman Catholic. MSM may not be naming son's school to protect his privacy as well as his peers': IMO, this is as it should be. However, Bronx "private" school the way readers are assuming. IMO, NO.

These schools fill a niche particularly in the Bronx (and other places) where they may be thought by some to be a better option than that boroughs' public high schools, particularly for a newcomer in his age and grade range.

Additionally, the yearly tuition of your average NYC Roman Catholic High School is nowhere, anywhere, near the cost of an average NYC "private" high school tuition.

Snipped

Tuition at New York City schools has long outpaced the national average. This past year, national median tuition for 12th grade was $21,695, according to the National Association of Independent Schools. In New York City, it was $35,475.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303936704576395812038878314.html

I checked the 2012 tuition of a parochial high school in the Bronx. It was $6,200. I will not link the site because it might be the high school he attends.
 
I checked the 2012 tuition of a parochial high school in the Bronx. It was $6,200. I will not link the site because it might the high school he attends.

Quite a difference. This is not to say that parochial school tuition would NOT have been a burden for YO. Not at all.

But the notion that YO wanted a "private" school for her son, while the parents sent their own to public school, is IMO not quite accurate.

BTW, I believe New York City dwellers, NYC MSM and NYC LE sources know the use of the term "private" school in this case is deceiving.

NYC is indeed, as the song says, a state of mind.
 
YO killed this couple's two children.

Did she have a psychotic break? IMO, she may have.

Did she murder these children out of jealousy and revenge and rage? I don't lean that way: at least, not yet.
 

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