09-17-2011 Topaz Mountain Search Yields Charred Wood and Decomp

[Oriah]

If urine smells different to you, imagine how different it smells to a dog.

Nitrogen, ammonia, ph, bacteria, substrate, materials, soil.

Need I say more?

 

[Oriah]

broken quotes have been carried for a while. It is going to take some time to fix. PLEASE DO NOT KEEP QUOTING THEM. they will all be unapproved until someone can fix them.

thanks and please please be careful when quoting others.

Thanks JBean. Sorry for the extra work.

 

[motappin]

I haven't been here much and I don't know what the broken quotes thing means. Hope I didn't do something wrong.

 

[HatesSociopaths]

I want to bring this quote from you forward from the other thread on this search, Oriah. It is quite helpful on this subject, IMO.

BBM.

Ok- here we go- and if this is confusing, I apologize. It is a very complicated subject, and this is MOO.

If there is decomp scent on an item that has been able to retain scent for a long period of time, then an HRD dog should be able to hit on it after much time has passed. Items that retain decomp scent are very variable, and also very subject to environmental conditions. Also, the 'stage' of decomp matters as well- when the remains come into contact with various items.

So... this may be a thoroughly confusing analogy, but I'm gonna try it anyway.
Think about it like this:
As a test, you put an open can of tuna into your fridge, close the door and leave it closed for a week. There are tons of different foods in your fridge. Most will absorb the scent of tuna to varying degrees, depending on their packaging and their propensity for absorption. Take out that loaf of wonder bread that you left unwrapped? It's gonna smell like tuna. And it's gonna smell strongly like tuna if the can of tuna is right under it, on it, or next to it. The oranges though- not so much- because they have a strong scent of their own, and are sealed by their own peel.
Now you take out the can of tuna. Your fridge still smells like tuna. In the meantime, I have tried the same experiment with MY fridge- only I have a 2011 SubZero and you have a 1972 Fridgidaire. Does the food in my fridge retain scent longer than yours, because it keeps a more consistant and sealed temp? Or does the food in your fridge retain less scent, because it has dispersed into the environment (and you can now smell tuna on the other side of your house?) So I get hit with a huge scent of tuna when I open my fridge door...while you are sorta like "hmm, so that's what I've been smelling all week."
Now try the same experiment, only put your tuna in a ziplock bag. Or drop or raise the temp in your fridge. Or shut it off entirely. Or leave the door slightly ajar. The scent of tuna that permeates the other foods in your fridge will vary wildly. Do you see what I'm saying?

Decomp is the same for HRD dogs. The variables are tremendous.

So to answer your question of whether or not an HRD dog can alert to a site after a body has been moved...it depends on A LOT of variables.

Helpful, huh?.

My opinion (and this is speculation) on this is what I've said before - it is a shallow grave, they were led to it by a witness who saw JP at the site in late August 2011, dogs hit on the spot, they dug, found no body, further tested the spot with a total of 11 dogs all hitting on it, they sifted for any decomp remnants JP might have left behind, and may have come up with nothing. The reason I suspect that is because of the quote above by Oriah indicates that the scent can still be present - not from actual decomp, but from the scent of the decomp that was formerly there which got retained by the soil or charred wood there.

MOO.

 

[Lera213]

Any word, gosh I just realized that was a loaded question. I think the media were assuming a lot, LE were not clear on word choice therefore the reports assumed based of non specific wording.

 

[Oriah]

HatesSociopaths, I very much appreciate you bringing that post forward- however I'd like to clarify something (which I probably should have to begin with!)

For an HRD dog, scent sometimes does 'linger' after actual remains are gone- and a lot of that depends on what items, substrate, etc may be 'holding on' to the scent. Thus the 'indicating' and all of that.

But a HRD dog should not be 'alerting' to anything other than the presence of actual, physical remains. Does that make any sense? That's one of the reasons why I'm concerned about the dogs ceasing to 'hit' on the hole, and then 'hitting' on the piles of evidence that had been dug out. Where are the full-on HRD alerts?

It seems to me that unless human remains are determined to have come from the dig site, we've got nothing. Kwim?

Gases are airborn scents. Were these dogs air scenting after being exposed to the dig site, and after the dig site was exposed to air?

 

[HatesSociopaths]

HatesSociopaths, I very much appreciate you bringing that post forward- however I'd like to clarify something (which I probably should have, to begin with!)

For an HRD dog, scent sometimes does 'linger' after actual remains are gone- and a lot of that depends on what items, substrate, etc may be 'holding on' to the scent. Thus the 'indicating' and all of that.

But a HRD dog should not be 'alerting' to anything other than the presence of actual, physical remains. Does that make any sense? That's one of the reason why I'm concerned about the dogs ceasing to 'hit' on the hole, and then 'hitting' on the piles of evidence that had been dug out.

It seems to me that unless human remains are determined to have come from the dig site, we've got nothing. Kwim?

Gases are airborn scents. Were these dogs air scenting after being exposed to the dig site, and after the dog site was exposed to air?

Thank you. What if the actual, physical remains were removed about 15 days priorly - would the HRD dog possibly still hit on the spot?

 

[MsFacetious]

Decomp absolutely contains DNA.

I'm just wondering how this is known on site?

I guess I should have been more clear... :seeya:

This particular "decomposition" found on charred wood... likely would still have DNA... IF they can still detect the "decomposition."

I just don't have much faith at all that there is "decomposition" at all...

Then I'm also supposed to believe that not only did Utah find charred wood with human decomposition on Saturday...

They also had analyzed it within 48 hours (including a Sunday)...

Determined there was DNA on it...

Then told the media about it.

All in 48 hours, over a Sunday.

I don't think so.

(I live in Utah and have lived here my entire life, for the record.)

 

[mojave_red]

We need a "Decomp for Dummies" book....and one on the various alphabet-soup of "dogs used to find people in various conditions, i.e., live, dead, in-between."

 

[MsFacetious]

Police are searching the area in part because it's about 30 miles south of Simpson Spring, a Pony Express Trail campground where Josh Powell told police he took the couple's young children on a winter camping trip in the hours before his wife disappeared.

The Powell's 4-year-old son has confirmed the trip to police.

http://www.heraldextra.com/news/loc...3ac-11e0-b7af-001cc4c002e0.html#ixzz1YWDKsjYQ

I am guessing they mean the one that was 4 at THAT time, not the one that is 4 NOW?

So this child knew where they were in the dark? How does a 4 year old know if you are in a park with trees or in a forest, in the dark? :waitasec:
Or they are just believing that he was correct that they were "camping..." but wrong about the exact location?

 

[Oriah]

MsFacetious... I don't believe this to be case either.
Thus my dismay at the presentation of all of this. It all actually...makes no sense, unfortunately.

 

[Oriah]

Thank you. What if the actual, physical remains were removed about 15 days priorly - would the HRD dog possibly still hit on the spot?

It would HUGELY depend on the scent dispersal, HS. Which would depend on the containment method of the scent, and the actual amount of physical source of the scent.

 

[BeanE]

100 officers search Utah desert for Susan Cox Powell


West Valley City police Lt. Bill Merritt said teams will cover the rugged, rocky terrain near Topaz Mountain in Juab County Tuesday on foot, horseback, ATV and by helicopter. A team of dogs trained to detect the scent of a decomposing human body will also be on hand, police Sgt. Mike Powell said.

"We'll continue pushing today and see what we can find," Mike Powell said.

snip

Police are searching the area in part because it's about 30 miles south of Simpson Spring, a Pony Express Trail campground where Josh Powell told police he took the couple's young children on a winter camping trip in the hours before his wife disappeared.

The Powell's 4-year-old son has confirmed the trip to police.

West Valley City police began a search of the region eight days ago. In that time, Merritt estimates that searchers have covered more than 50 square miles of the sagebrush-covered desert that is dotted with small, shiny pieces of topaz.

snip


"Anything we find is being documented, photographed in place and the GPS coordinates are being marked so that we have that information in case we need to go back," he said.


http://www.abc4.com/content/news/to...=20&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

 

[Oriah]

BeanE...make it stopppppppppp!!

Jeez, ABC4- "HRD" stands for "HUMAN REMAINS DETECTION."
This does NOT mean necessarily a human body in its entirety.

Gah. Ok- I'm off to throw a bunch of plates against the wall.

 

[BeanE]

Because the dogs told us silly....
:great:

:floorlaugh:

On another topic... and slightly off-topic...

Sarx and Oriah (and mods) -

Would you consider having a thread for an online chat where those of us interested in learning more about HRD doggies can get your good info and ask questions and learn more?

Thanks

And thank you for answering all our questions in this case and providing so much good info. I really appreciate it.

 

[sarx]

So, they have searched over 32,000 acres and can comfortably say those have been cleared?

There are literally hundreds of places for a body to be dumped 30 miles from where he was camping in most every direction.

 

[sarx]

:floorlaugh:

On another topic... and slightly off-topic...

Sarx and Oriah (and mods) -

Would you consider having a thread for an online chat where those of us interested in learning more about HRD doggies can get your good info and ask questions and learn more?

Thanks

And thank you for answering all our questions in this case and providing so much good info. I really appreciate it.

At one time we had a dog thread for just that purpose, but it got lost somewhere! I would be happy to, though as you can tell the filter between my brain and my mouth seems to be lost at the moment, and Oriah has taken my "PC" card away from me, lol.

 

[spamelope]

My youngest son is 12. If I put him in my van, drive up to Pike's Peak in the wee hours, and then tell him that we were on Mount Evans, he would tell everyone that indeed, we were at Mt. Evans. Even if he said, "Gee, Mom, this looks like the place we were at last year, and you said it was Pike's Peak" I could reassure him that while it does resemble Mt. Evans, it is Pike's Peak. I don't understand why anyone would put a whole lot of faith in the testimony of a 4 year old. Not that I have no faith in them, it's just hard to put a lot of credence in the opinion of someone who still believes in the Easter Bunny.

 

[sarx]

So, what are the current theories in terms of kids, bodies, burials, etc? How do they all fit together?

 

[DomCasual]

My youngest son is 12. If I put him in my van, drive up to Pike's Peak in the wee hours, and then tell him that we were on Mount Evans, he would tell everyone that indeed, we were at Mt. Evans. Even if he said, "Gee, Mom, this looks like the place we were at last year, and you said it was Pike's Peak" I could reassure him that while it does resemble Mt. Evans, it is Pike's Peak. I don't understand why anyone would put a whole lot of faith in the testimony of a 4 year old. Not that I have no faith in them, it's just hard to put a lot of credence in the opinion of someone who still believes in the Easter Bunny.

Heck, with my 13-year-old, I could drive to Mexico and call it Maine, as long as he had his Nintendo GS.