17-yo Teen Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #7

[Steely Dan]

I've avoided these threads for awhile now because they can rehash old issues over and over again. I just want to update how I feel about this since all of the stuff that's happened over the past week and a half or so. I'll stick around to listen to what others say and then probably leave again shortly after.

First, I think that GZ is a paranoid schizophrenic or very close to it. IIRC, he made 49 calls to 911 in nine months, mostly, about suspicious people. Since I was eighteen I've lived in seven different places. Five of them in the city. In those twenty five years I've made less than five, I'm sure, phone calls to 911 and only two about a suspicious person. One based on someone coming in and asking weird questions about when the business closed, and one about a someone crawling up the side of my apartment building to the window above mine. I lived in the basement. That was over twenty years ago.

Second, I'd be willing to bet dollars to donuts that it's Trayvon screaming for help on the 911 calls.

Third: So much time has passed and it's going to be very close to impossible to find out what really happens unless GZ is totally honest and passes a polygraph on his story. Even if he were to plead guilty and pass a polygraph I don't think we'll truly ever know.

Fourth: The cops screwed this up horribly from the beginning, but part of it may be legal. It's egregious dereliction of duty, but is it illegal due to the stand your ground law? If a guy breaks into my house and I shoot him it's a pretty much a slam dunk that I'm in the right. However, I would expect the police to talk to witness' and conduct an investigation into whether or not my story jibed with the facts. If they didn't do that and just took my word for it after a cursory look, they'd be right. I wouldn't shoot someone unless they were breaking into my house.

This is a totally different circumstance though. You have a killing happening after a 911 call that would lead anyone sane to some tough questions. "Why did you get out of the car?" "Why did you follow him?" "Why did you have a gun on you?" The police say that Zimmerman had wounds and that the facts matched his story. OK, then why not release his entire story and the facts? Where are the pictures of his wounds?

Fifth: The Black Panthers aren't helping matters in any way, shape or form. They are going against Trayvon's own parents wishes and are taking the focus away from what really matters. The investigation.

They are also turning a possible vigilante problem into another possible vigilante problem.

Sixth: With the stand your ground law did they have to arrest him? Going back to my example of someone breaking into my house and me shooting them, would they have to arrest me after an interrogation if everything pointed to my valid use of deadly force? This is why that law is a pain in the :butthead: for prosecutors. This isn't occurring in homes, this is occurring in free society. This also occurred with very few witness'. (A witness for GZ just stepped forward. See the AC link below.) The guy who came forward for GZ says he saw GZ on the ground with TM pummeling him. I find it strange that he's taken so long to come forward. Where was he that night? Also, even if TM was on top of him pummeling him that doesn't mean it was self defense for GZ. You can't chase me down for no reason and start hitting me and then when I get the best of you claim you were defending yourself by killing me.

Seventh: We have no idea what Trayvon was thinking. Ask yourself this; If someone was slowly following you in a car as you walked down the street at night and you turned back and didn't recognize them what would you do? A lot of us feel that we should tell our kids that if a stranger is following you or tries to accost you then you should scream as loud as you can and run away. Even if they aren't told that by us, a lot are told by other means. If Trayvon ran he would be doing what a lot of us would do in a similar circumstance.

Eighth: This is what should have happened, IMO. As far as I know very little of this occurred. First the cops should have kept everyone away from the crime scene and put up tape around the whole area. From the road to the spot of the killing. Were there footprints that told a story? How could the cops so easily judge who's footprints are who's without measurements and such. Where was the bullet casing? Were there marks in the ground from the gun? If so where? What was the angle of entry for the bullet in Trayvon and how does that match GZ's testimony. What other autopsy results point to or away from his innocence. Since it was raining some of this may have had to wait til the next day.

GZ should have been made to disrobe and have his clothes left to be tested for evidence. They should have booked him on suspicion of murder. (The stand your ground law should be a defense for court, not for the cops to decide.) Then they should have taken pictures of his wounds and interrogated him, fully video'd. He should have been arraigned in front of a judge and bail set. It should then have gone to a grand jury to decide if there was enough evidence to take him to trial.

Too much of what should be left up to the jury system was left up to a police force with a history of not arresting people who commit crimes against blacks. (I.E. the cops son who beat a homeless man on film, and was shown the film as well as heard witness statements, at the scene, but didn't arrest him on the spot. IIRC, it wasn't until the video hit Youtube and pressure was applied that they arrested him.)

Finally: It could be that GZ is innocent under the law of Florida. His story may clear things up and sort things out. However, in over a month all we've gotten is stonewalling and excuses from the PD. It has become so bad that even if GZ was right he couldn't get a fair trial.

In the KCA trial the cops did everything right and the stonewalling was done by her so naturally everyone scrutinized her closely. Here the police are stonewalling and so naturally everyone is scrutinizing them closely. The problem is they handled the situation so poorly that they don't have very many answers, let alone any good ones. JMO


The Anderson Cooper video; http://www.cnn.com/video/?hpt=hp_t3#/video/bestoftv/2012/03/27/ac-kth-trayvon-martin-witness.cnn

 

[m00c0w]

This snipped info , I find quite interesting and got me thinking

Snipped

"Zimmerman then shot Trayvon once in the chest at very close range, according to authorities".

And makes me wonder if GZ shot TM by pressing his gun right up to Tray's chest.
And I wonder if that was the reason why it became a single shooter since it did not cycle.
Couple that also with the fact that the gun was only fired once. Unless you are very pretty good/lucky shot, a single 9mm shot does not stop a person dead in his track if fired from a short distance and generally multiple shots will be fired..
The self defense thingy boils down to one thing, what triggered Tray to deck GZ.
What did GZ do just before that.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com..._1_miami-schools-punch-unarmed-black-teenager

I'm not sure that pressing the barrel up against an object would keep it from cycling. I'll have to look into that.

 

[rossva]

From the link Kimberlyd125 provided:

"The incident happened shortly before 11 a.m. Friday at the Walgreens at 1501 Northeast 163rd Street, minutes after between 400-500 North Miami Beach Senior High students walked out to protest the 17-year-old's shooting death in Sanford.

According to North Miami Beach Police, the protest was mostly peaceful and orderly with the exception of the 80-100 students who flooded into the Walgreen's store, ransacking shelving displays and breaking merchandise."

Wow, it was mostly peaceful except for the 20-25% of the students. Thats putting a spin on things. IMO, like asking Mrs. Lincoln, "otherwise, how was the play?"

Really not helping:

http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/Trayvo...ed-North-Miami-Beach-Walgreens-144407215.html

Trayvon Martin Protesters Ransacked North Miami Beach Walgreen's

Dozens of protesters tore through drug store, destroyed merchandise: Police

 

[Kimberlyd125]

How about long enough to actually have injuries, you know some that were bad enough for the police to photograph, and have more treatment than a bandaid in the back of the police car... enough injuruies to make his story that he was fighting for his life credibleIMO JMHO and stuff

He did have injuries. They are described on the initial police report.

 

[wishuwerehere]

The problem here is that we don't know if TM is indeed an innocent victim. We don't have enough evidence to get that straight. Being deceased does not make one a victim per se.

The investigation should have been handled much more carefully so that the police department could easily defend their position, but they had no idea that the press would spin the story in order to get people fired up.

If it turns out that Zimmerman was not attacked and in no danger of great bodily harm, then he should be prosecuted. If not, the self defense stands because a reasonable person in GZ's position has the right to use deadly force to prevent great bodily harm. If you are on your back screaming for help having had your nose broken, the reasonable man would consider they are in danger of great bodily harm - and especially if the person on top is reaching for a gun whether it's his or yours.

It was not against the law or profiling or a hate anything when GZ followed Martin. Only what happened once they met up is relevant.

Zimmerman lost any sense of being "reasonable" when he exited his vehicle and went after Trayvon with a gun.

It doesn't matter how you spin it, Trayvon is the victim here.

The Sanford PD failed its community when it started portraying itself as Zimmerman's defense team.

jmo

 

[Juliet10]

when is the grand jury? and will they release a lot of information like Trayvon's autopsy and photos and statements by Zimmerman? does the public get to see everything?

 

[miimaa]

Zimmerman said Martin had his hand in his waistband. He reported that to the 911, why?

The only thing I can think of is because it indicated he might have had a gun in his waistband.

So Zimmerman thinking Martin might be armed runs after him chasing a teen he thinks might be armed.

I bet he was pumped up with adrenaline ready for Martin to pull that gun at any time.

Is that your opinion or from statements?

GZ's statment to police was that GZ walked around looking for where TM had gone when he ditched him. TM knew he was being watched/followed (per the girlfriend). GZ was returning to his vehicle when TM approached him from behind and asked if GZ had a problem. GZ replied he did not, TM said "you do now" and punched him, knocking him to the ground. TM then slammed GZ's head on the pavement. GZ then shot TM.

 

[miimaa]

if zimmerman was walking back to his truck and tm attacked him from behind, and zimmerman screamed for help but got none... How long should he have taken the beating before using his gun in self defense?

Because this is the scenario that the evidence seems to support according to le who have several witnesses listed on the initial report.

thank you

 

[miimaa]

You left out this part:

Okay........... so where did I post that TM should be shot? No where.

I have to disagree that anyone feels Trayvon deserved to be shot! The way I see it is many people want to believe Zimmerman chased down a young innocent lad and he's getting away with it.

 

[rossva]

Just want to thank the mod's for the job they are doing. I know, at least in my case, they have been giving great leeway in what they have alloowed to be posted. I think we can all agree that a case likes this causes passions to run high. Since last night I have been paying great attention to what I post.

Thank you mods.

mod question: why are posters using snarky one liners at the end of their posts? I am really beside myself seeing these personal attacks! Enough already!

 

[vlpate]

Yes, of course, the BEST decision when you have superficial injuries that nobody would believe you got in a fight for your life, then of course you don't go to the hospital to have them documented, you let the EMT do it in the back of the squad car, and then all you have to worry about is the EMT's trip sheet, and what he LE officer says, you don't have to worry about all that pesky paperwork that could come back and bite you on the keister when you are claiming self defense IMO JMHO and stuff.

BEM: Is this meant to be facetious?

I've heard accounts from witnesses that Zimmerman was in shock after this happened, which would make perfect sense. He was handcuffed immediately, elected, as far as we know, not to be taken to the hospital - which would have helped his self defense pleading, but he was not thinking that way, IMO. Instead, he was taken to the station for questioning, and he cooperated - this *vigilante monster (*facetious).

 

[rotterdam]

I'm not sure that pressing the barrel up against an object would keep it from cycling. I'll have to look into that.

I thought it could but if Tray got a hold of the slide that could do it too of course.
That Kel-Tec is a small gun. In the heat of a fight, GZ could have pulled from his inside waist band holder with one hand without Tray noticing till too late.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

BBM - If we can't agree on this, well I see no hope here.

violence - the exercise or an instance of physical force, usually effecting or intended to effect injuries, destruction, etc.

Let's get real. Zimmerman committed an act violence. Agreed?

Or an act of self defense due to an act of violence against him.

It's not clear at this point.

Still under investigation.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Steely, some suggested reading. R Hornsby's blog.

The only difference is that even if law enforcement believed George Zimmerman, under the old law they would have arrested him first and asked questions later.

But under the new law, Florida Statute 776.032, law enforcement cannot arrest George Zimmerman unless they determine that the deadly force he used was unlawful under the facts of the case.

And we know that the Sanford Police Department declined to arrest George Zimmerman; therefore they have concluded that his use of deadly force was lawful.

http://blog.richardhornsby.com/

 

[miimaa]

If Trayvon had come up behind Zimmerman and knocked him to the ground, then he would have had scrapes on his hands, and grass stains on his knees, not grass and be wet on his back. I think his original statement if we ever get to see it is going to say that he was attacked from behind, and the later 2.0 versions after he realized that the evidence doesn't show that is going to say that they had words face to face and then Trayvon knocked him to his back with one blow.... IMO JMHO and stuff

As GZ was returning to his vehicle, TM came up behind GZ and SPOKE to him saying "do you have a problem?"

So it would seem logical that GZ turned to face TM when he answered that he did not, and TM said well you do now and punched GZ in the face.

 

[rossva]

He was not convicted of any felonies.

The criteria to obtain a license under Florida's concealed weapons law are minimal. The state is required to grant a concealed carry license within 90 days to any qualified adult who has taken a firearms safety or training course and does not possess a disqualifying trait. Such traits include: a history of drug or alcohol abuse; any felony conviction; adjudication withheld on a felony charge; some misdemeanor convictions involving violence; state commitment for mental illness; or physical inability to use a gun. In addition to firearms training documentation, the following is required for first-time applicants: a fingerprint check, photograph, $117 fee, review of Florida statutes relating to weapons and firearms, and a completed application. Unless a violation occurs, the license is valid for three years.

http://www.vpc.org/studies/cccrimst.htm

I do not understand why Zimmerman was allowed to carry a gun when he had resisted arrest and assaulted a police officer and his girlfriend.

 

[Sensei]

Or perhaps Lee misspoke? That's certainly happened with the family a few times.

It has happened with everyone a few times, according to the recent link, the PD took Zimmerman down to the Police station for questioning in spite of the fact that he didn't want to go and requested medical attention.

Where do we put this one since he was NOT arrested, but he was a material witness, and the request for medical help SHOULD have been priority. It should have been priority to get it and then to document it, and take pictures of it, and apparently none of that was done.....

nothing at all about the whole situation sound right or smells right, and I don't know who started the fight, but I believe that GZ deserves some punishment for A) carrying a loaded gun and following a teenager even if it is only criminal bad judgement....and I think someone needs to get to whatever the heck is happening in Sanford with their PD, I can't imagine how frightened the people of that small community are with a PD that can't even follow simple standard law enforcement rules. IMO JMHO and stuff

 

[m00c0w]

First, I think that GZ is a paranoid schizophrenic or very close to it. IIRC, he made 49 calls to 911 in nine months, mostly, about suspicious people.

He did not. He made 47 calls in 8 years; 3 calls in 2012, one being about Martin. Being a part of the neighborhood watch, or even a concerned citizen would explain 8 calls a year.

Fourth: The cops screwed this up horribly from the beginning, but part of it may be legal. It's egregious dereliction of duty, but is it illegal due to the stand your ground law? If a guy breaks into my house and I shoot him it's a pretty much a slam dunk that I'm in the right. However, I would expect the police to talk to witness' and conduct an investigation into whether or not my story jibed with the facts. If they didn't do that and just took my word for it after a cursory look, they'd be right. I wouldn't shoot someone unless they were breaking into my house.

This is a totally different circumstance though. You have a killing happening after a 911 call that would lead anyone sane to some tough questions. "Why did you get out of the car?" "Why did you follow him?" "Why did you have a gun on you?" The police say that Zimmerman had wounds and that the facts matched his story. OK, then why not release his entire story and the facts? Where are the pictures of his wounds?

There doesn't seem to be anything to imply the police did not take witness statements and conduct an investigation at the scene. It's still very much an active investigation, and generally evidence is held close to chest until the trial, for various reasons.

Sixth: With the stand your ground law did they have to arrest him? Going back to my example of someone breaking into my house and me shooting them, would they have to arrest me after an interrogation if everything pointed to my valid use of deadly force? This is why that law is a pain in the :butthead: for prosecutors. This isn't occurring in homes, this is occurring in free society. This also occurred with very few witness'. (A witness for GZ just stepped forward. See the AC link below.) The guy who came forward for GZ says he saw GZ on the ground with TM pummeling him. I find it strange that he's taken so long to come forward. Where was he that night? Also, even if TM was on top of him pummeling him that doesn't mean it was self defense for GZ. You can't chase me down for no reason and start hitting me and then when I get the best of you claim you were defending yourself by killing me.

Per the florida statute, they could not arrest him without probable cause to believe the use of force was unlawful. If they did, they would be committing a crime themselves. There has to be probable cause a good faith present in an arrest; if these are not present, the officer as essentially illegally detained you.

As for that last sentence, there would need to be some evidence that Zimmerman chased him down and started hitting him. I would not characterize following someone from a distance as chasing them down, and there's no evidence as to who started hitting who first, aside from Zimmerman's testimony.

GZ should have been made to disrobe and have his clothes left to be tested for evidence. They should have booked him on suspicion of murder. (The stand your ground law should be a defense for court, not for the cops to decide.) Then they should have taken pictures of his wounds and interrogated him, fully video'd. He should have been arraigned in front of a judge and bail set. It should then have gone to a grand jury to decide if there was enough evidence to take him to trial.

A lot of this reportedly happened. He was taken in to be interviewed, and his clothes were taken. They probably took pictures of his wounds. They did not arrest him because of the statute prohibiting it without probable cause.

If you look at the Trevor Dooley case, he was not arrested until they formed this very same probable cause by interviewing witnesses that saw the entire event happen. Unfortunately, it does not look like the investigators were so lucky, so they had a lengthy investigation to sort through everything.

Finally: It could be that GZ is innocent under the law of Florida. His story may clear things up and sort things out. However, in over a month all we've gotten is stonewalling and excuses from the PD. It has become so bad that even if GZ was right he couldn't get a fair trial.

In the KCA trial the cops did everything right and the stonewalling was done by her so naturally everyone scrutinized her closely. Here the police are stonewalling and so naturally everyone is scrutinizing them closely. The problem is they handled the situation so poorly that they don't have very many answers, let alone any good ones. JMO


The Anderson Cooper video; http://www.cnn.com/video/?hpt=hp_t3#/video/bestoftv/2012/03/27/ac-kth-trayvon-martin-witness.cnn

I'm not sure if it's fair to claim that they're "stonewalling" when it's still an active investigation. Perhaps if they didn't have to keep handing the investigation over to different parties, all of the information would have been released by now.

 

[Inabsentia]

Or perhaps Lee misspoke? That's certainly happened with the family a few times.

I hope that the police chief in charge of the investigation of a shooting is held to his publicly made statements about a case more closely than a grief-stricken family who has just lost a child. Moo

 

[Dr.Fessel]

Is that your opinion or from statements?

GZ's statment to police was that GZ walked around looking for where TM had gone when he ditched him. TM knew he was being watched/followed (per the girlfriend). GZ was returned to his vehicle when TM approached him from behind and asked if GZ had a problem. GZ replied he did not, TM said "you do now" and punched him, knocking him to the ground. TM then slammed GZ's head on the pavement. GZ then shot TM.

BBM

Zimmerman said Martin had his hand in his waistband. He reported that to the 911

911 call http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jL72w4xiTVU&feature=youtu.be