17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #13

[LambChop]

Not a gun person here either but respectful of those that are and their rights~though I think we need to make some changes in the current laws but that's a tome I will spare you from

As to having no choice in the way we handle the unexpected....Maybe. But it NEVER had to reach that point. Had Mr. Zimmerman simply let LE respond and handle the "suspicious" teen, the obvious call IMO; we wouldn't be here today. He made a choice to engage. MOO

Guns don't decide to kill people...people do. It's not the gun that's the problem it's that person who fired it. jmo

 

[stmarysmead]

I don't think anyone is out to get GZ. I think most of us here are questioning his motives to follow someone when he knew better. And obviously the term "out to get him" is what GZ did to TM by his very actions. Exploring the possibilities of what happened is the price GZ will have to pay for his for shooting someone. The end result is that a young man is dead. To not question how that happened is to turn a blind eye. There is still an ongoing investigation and TM's family have the right to know what happened here and not just take GZ's word for it. If GZ was telling the truth the facts will back up his story. As long as LE is left alone to do their job they will get to the truth. GZ has a history of escaping "responsibilities for his actions" it would be irresponsible on the part of citizens to just let this one side under the carpet knowing he has gotten away with misbehavior in the past. We all have the right to question why facts don't add up. jmo

Why should GZ have "known better" to follow a stranger in his neighborhood late at night if the neighborhood has a Watch system setup? The fact that TM was just returning from the candy store, visiting someone in the complex, and innocent of conspiring to rob...was not flashing in the sky. GZ followed him to watch him. Think of all the cases of home invasion, rape, murder of young girls of all skin hues, alone in their apartments at night. HOw often have we thought..."If only someone had been watching...if only someone had asked that person why he was there!" We pray that neighbors care enough to get involved.

Now, I have read all the speculation about GZ being over zealous...and that could be the case. No matter what, this young man should not have lost his life. But I have also read TM's tweets...and the way he wanted his friends to perceive him. It's the way a lot of teenagers want to present themselves...the language is offensive but common enough at a certain age. It's not "blaming the victim" to take into account the FACTUALl way HE PRESENTED himself on social media. HIS WORDS. It does not mean that he was not a GOOD YOUNG MAN...but it shows how he wished his PEERS to perceive him.

Remembering that he was talking to his girlfriend, did he decide to be the person he posed as on the Internet...the "tough guy"...and confront this shorter. older guy who was annoying him, following him? Obviously , NOT if he knew there was a gun. But, knowing teenagers...reading those tweets...is it IMPOSSIBLE that TM was the aggressor?

Can't we wait for the facts before we demand trials, convictions...anything?

Again, without a gun...this might have been nothing more than a fistfight. Under no scenario, should this young man have ended up dead. His parents DO deserve facts. Zimmermann deserves them too. But only facts. Not media twisted "evidence." Not witnesses now changing stories because it's dangerous to defend a man who has a Life or death Bounty on his head. Not the DEMANDS for trial no matter what the evidence or the Law might be. The community demanded the Lacrosse players be indicted without evdence...and a now disbarred DA did so...to get re-elected. That is not justice...that is mob rule.

 

[Helplessly Hoping]

Guns don't decide to kill people...people do. It's not the gun that's the problem it's that person who fired it. jmo

Of course. And in this specific case its outrageous to me that Mr. Zimmerman was able to legally get a gun with his background. MOO

 

[stmarysmead]

Th funeral director says TM had no bruises, injuries to his face. The witnesses say that one man was on top of the other, punching the other man in the face. Why if TM was not the man "on top"...did he have no injuries to his face?

 

[Emeralgem]

Even with card purchases I tell them and fast food places I don't want a receipt. That way I don't have to clean up the gadzillion receipts that would end up on the floor of my car.

Totally O/T.. You really need to keep the receipts for you card purchases until you check your bank statment.

I carry an envelope in my purse for receipts at all times and check them at the end of the month.. IF cleared, I then shread them..JMHO

 

[Donjeta]

What is interesting is GZ's claim through his attorney that it was a gash requiring stitches that after GZ went to the doctors a couple of days later the wound had already started to heal so the doctor did not stitch his head. After the lockup tape was released and you can't see a gash, it suddenedly became a contusion (and not released by GZ's attorney but by his friend, FT). The attorney was taking GZ's word regarding the "gash and stitches" and was verifying it on national tv as true. Now the attorney looks bad. jmo

If the wound is a couple of days old there is a greater infection risk and doctors often opt out of stitching it whether it initially required stitches or not.

 

[iluvmua]

Bottom link: All Trayvon articles from fox35

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/subindex/news/trayvon_martin


this is the second article about the case, the first that id's TM

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/new...n-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation

"The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, 'Help! Help!' and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911," said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John.

John said he locked his patio door, ran upstairs and heard at least one gun shot.

"And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point."

this is what his mother said when first interviewed.

He walked out of the house to go to the store. He was going to the store," she said. "He doesn't know anybody here. He just came down here, so he was bored, so he walked down to the store. He was on his way back home. I'm living down here. He was sitting on the porch and this man killed him."

what does she mean by: He was sitting on the porch and this man killed him?

 

[Americka]

Th funeral director says TM had no bruises, injuries to his face. The witnesses say that one man was on top of the other, punching the other man in the face. Why if TM was not the man "on top"...did he have no injuries to his face?

The funeral director also stated Trayvon Martin did not have cuts or bruises to his hands. Do you have a link to this witness statement regarding the punching? Thanks.

 

[songline]

we always have a choice - its just sometimes we make the wrong ones. But there is always a choice.

JMHO

We almost always have a choice
there are thing’s in life we can control and other things that we can not.
Example - my daughter is mentally ill - sometimes I have to ignore some things that she says.
Would it be my choice to ignore bad behavior, NO.
I did not do that with my other kiid.
I just have to, because condition tells me to let it go sometimes.

Something’s are pre-ordained.And we may not even begin to understand.

 

[BuzzieCat]

This could be possible. I've wondered a few times if GZ was building his resume, so to speak. He wanted to be LE, so he may have been doing things to help with a future application.

-Becoming neighborhood watch captain.
-Taking that 4 month law enforcement course.
-Mentoring african american children.
-Studying criminal justice.

Seems to me GZ was very serious about becoming a cop, so in my opinion, it's not much of a stretch to think he was very serious about being the neighborhood watch captain. I think he took it so seriously because he needed to produce measurable results in that role in order to look good on paper. I think he wanted to be able to say, "I stopped 20 robberies in the last year" when applying to the police force again. And he was willing to call in ANYTHING and ANYONE to produce results.

This is all just my opinion.

Does anyone know what the process is for applying for a job in LE? (Don't know where GZ wanted to work - SPD? Elsewhere?) Do you have to graduate from a criminal justice program, or can you just apply to go to police academy or something? I am unclear if GZ was actually in a CJ program or not - I have read that he was in the CJ program and alternatively that he was just in a general studies program.

I can't imagine the police expect you to catch a number of criminals before you can apply! Surely that is not required and GZ would know that.

JMO - I know nothing about the application process.

 

[songline]

It's a miracle to me that anybody ever gets charged for murder.
IMO this law is just a free ticket to kill and then lie about self defense later.

I agree. :maddening:

 

[Donjeta]

Why should GZ have "known better" to follow a stranger in his neighborhood late at night if the neighborhood has a Watch system setup? The fact that TM was just returning from the candy store, visiting someone in the complex, and innocent of conspiring to rob...was not flashing in the sky. GZ followed him to watch him. Think of all the cases of home invasion, rape, murder of young girls of all skin hues, alone in their apartments at night. HOw often have we thought..."If only someone had been watching...if only someone had asked that person why he was there!" We pray that neighbors care enough to get involved.

Respectfully snipped for space.
He should have known better because what he did is not what NW is supposed to do.

Chris Tutko, director of Neighborhood Watch for the National Sheriffs' Association, said Zimmerman broke some cardinal rules.

First, he approached a stranger he suspected of wrongdoing.

"If you see something suspicious, you report it, you step aside and you let law enforcement do their job," Tutko said. "This guy went way beyond the call of duty. At the least, he's overzealous."

Second, Zimmerman carried a handgun. Police departments and sheriff's offices that train volunteers advise them never to carry weapons — though Zimmerman broke no laws by doing so because he has a concealed-weapons permit.

"There's no reason to carry a gun," Tutko said.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...1_zimmerman-community-ties-neighborhood-watch

 

[Emeralgem]

Why should GZ have "known better" to follow a stranger in his neighborhood late at night if the neighborhood has a Watch system setup? The fact that TM was just returning from the candy store, visiting someone in the complex, and innocent of conspiring to rob...was not flashing in the sky. GZ followed him to watch him. Think of all the cases of home invasion, rape, murder of young girls of all skin hues, alone in their apartments at night. HOw often have we thought..."If only someone had been watching...if only someone had asked that person why he was there!" We pray that neighbors care enough to get involved.

Now, I have read all the speculation about GZ being over zealous...and that could be the case. No matter what, this young man should not have lost his life. But I have also read TM's tweets...and the way he wanted his friends to perceive him. It's the way a lot of teenagers want to present themselves...the language is offensive but common enough at a certain age. It's not "blaming the victim" to take into account the FACTUALl way HE PRESENTED himself on social media. HIS WORDS. It does not mean that he was not a GOOD YOUNG MAN...but it shows how he wished his PEERS to perceive him.

Remembering that he was talking to his girlfriend, did he decide to be the person he posed as on the Internet...the "tough guy"...and confront this shorter. older guy who was annoying him, following him? Obviously , NOT if he knew there was a gun. But, knowing teenagers...reading those tweets...is it IMPOSSIBLE that TM was the aggressor?

Can't we wait for the facts before we demand trials, convictions...anything?
Again, without a gun...this might have been nothing more than a fistfight. Under no scenario, should this young man have ended up dead. His parents DO deserve facts. Zimmermann deserves them too. But only facts. Not media twisted "evidence." Not witnesses now changing stories because it's dangerous to defend a man who has a Life or death Bounty on his head. Not the DEMANDS for trial no matter what the evidence or the Law might be. The community demanded the Lacrosse players be indicted without evdence...and a now disbarred DA did so...to get re-elected. That is not justice...that is mob rule.

BBM.. Do you really consider "sevenish" to be late at night?

 

[MarthaM]

Why should GZ have "known better" to follow a stranger in his neighborhood late at night if the neighborhood has a Watch system setup? The fact that TM was just returning from the candy store, visiting someone in the complex, and innocent of conspiring to rob...was not flashing in the sky. GZ followed him to watch him. Think of all the cases of home invasion, rape, murder of young girls of all skin hues, alone in their apartments at night. HOw often have we thought..."If only someone had been watching...if only someone had asked that person why he was there!" We pray that neighbors care enough to get involved.

Anybody with common sense should know better than to follow strangers around a neighborhood. Someone who is a Neighborhood Watch captain should know that better than anybody. That's not what NW is all about, and a captain especially should know that.

Now, I have read all the speculation about GZ being over zealous...and that could be the case. No matter what, this young man should not have lost his life. But I have also read TM's tweets...and the way he wanted his friends to perceive him. It's the way a lot of teenagers want to present themselves...the language is offensive but common enough at a certain age. It's not "blaming the victim" to take into account the FACTUALl way HE PRESENTED himself on social media. HIS WORDS. It does not mean that he was not a GOOD YOUNG MAN...but it shows how he wished his PEERS to perceive him.

I don't think there's any 'could be' about the over-zealous part. His following Trayvon that night proves that to me.

And Zimmerman did not know who Trayvon was, obviously could not have read his tweets or facebook or anything else, so there's no reason to consider those at all. To me, all of this looking into Trayvon's social media sounds like nothing more than trying to see if he 'deserved it', or 'had it coming'. I'm not saying that the poster I'm responding to is specifically saying that, just that it's disturbing to me that his tweets or pictures could be relevant at all.

 

[William N]

Pardon me if someone has already mentioned this, but NBC News doctored Zimmerman's 911 call in order to make him look bad.

 

[songline]

Not a gun person here either but respectful of those that are and their rights~though I think we need to make some changes in the current laws but that's a tome I will spare you from

As to having no choice in the way we handle the unexpected....Maybe. But it NEVER had to reach that point. Had Mr. Zimmerman simply let LE respond and handle the "suspicious" teen, the obvious call IMO; we wouldn't be here today. He made a choice to engage. MOO

I agree with parts of your post.
But while he is legally allowed to get out of his car he did not have a crystal ball.
I think the huge case is a result of POLICE not creating a case n the first place
just to verify the account of events that actually did transpire.

 

[Etilema]

Anybody with common sense should know better than to follow strangers around a neighborhood. Someone who is a Neighborhood Watch captain should know that better than anybody. That's not what NW is all about, and a captain especially should know that.



I don't think there's any 'could be' about the over-zealous part. His following Trayvon that night proves that to me.

And Zimmerman did not know who Trayvon was, obviously could not have read his tweets or facebook or anything else, so there's no reason to consider those at all. To me, all of this looking into Trayvon's social media sounds like nothing more than trying to see if he 'deserved it', or 'had it coming'. I'm not saying that the poster I'm responding to is specifically saying that, just that it's disturbing to me that his tweets or pictures could be relevant at all.

BBM

I am also disturbed by apparent attempts to blame the victim. However, I think there is one way that this information can be relevant in Trayvon's case. That is in determining whether it is likely that Trayvon *did* deliberately and proactively attack GZ, in which case GZ would legally be within his rights to shoot to defend himself.

In other words, if Trayvon was the type of kid to attack someone who was bugging him, then GZ's story would be supported. Looking at his tweets, his background, etc., are methods of forming an opinion about whether or not he was likely to do such a thing.

This morning I watched the interview with Trayvon's mother for the first time. They posed the question to her about whether she was surprised to find out he had been in an altercation, or whether it was something he would commonly be involved with. Her reaction was strongly that it was *not* something she would have expected, "especially with an adult". ([ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71Ytt7zTB6A"]Miami Herald Interviews Trayvon Martin Family - Does NOT Ask About Chicken - YouTube[/ame])

 

[beach]

Pardon me if someone has already mentioned this, but NBC News doctored Zimmerman's 911 call in order to make him look bad.

I'm SURE you have a link to back up this accusation, right?

Provide a link or please retract this (what is considered a vicious rumor) immediately.

 

[stmarysmead]

Well what I want is an honest police force and states attorney office that does not treat cases based on the color of skin which there appears to be plenty of evidence in this circumstance and past ones. A police force that does this might make some people feel safe but it is best to remember the minority and majority is a changin.

Anybody with common sense should know better than to follow strangers around a neighborhood. Someone who is a Neighborhood Watch captain should know that better than anybody. That's not what NW is all about, and a captain especially should know that.



I don't think there's any 'could be' about the over-zealous part. His following Trayvon that night proves that to me.

And Zimmerman did not know who Trayvon was, obviously could not have read his tweets or facebook or anything else, so there's no reason to consider those at all. To me, all of this looking into Trayvon's social media sounds like nothing more than trying to see if he 'deserved it', or 'had it coming'. I'm not saying that the poster I'm responding to is specifically saying that, just that it's disturbing to me that his tweets or pictures could be relevant at all.

In a matter like this, everything is relevant. Not just things about Zimmermann. And yes, in Duke Lacrosse, many thought the nothng about Mangum was "relevant"...because they wanted a PERFECT victim vs. evil perpetrator. Tell the man she murdered last year about her perfection!

Why does the victim need to be "perfect"anyway? TM did not deserve to die for being the person who sent those tweets. But that is how he wished his friends to perceive him...and that could have bearing on how he reacted to GZ...while on the phone with a girlfriend.

His pictures are relevant...just as Casey Anthony's were relevant. We need to know both these people , and not from people who have agendas....or are loving family members on either side.

 

[songline]

Anybody with common sense should know better than to follow strangers around a neighborhood. Someone who is a Neighborhood Watch captain should know that better than anybody. That's not what NW is all about, and a captain especially should know that.

It was around 7 PM not late. but with the many criminal cases on this site, we o often read and why didn’t one of the neighbors notice this, or follow the stranger to see, or don’t people care anymore???
GZ was a citizen who did care, and believed in if you see something say something.

I don't think there's any 'could be' about the over-zealous part. His following Trayvon that night proves that to me.
It does not prove anything

And Zimmerman did not know who Trayvon was, obviously could not have read his tweets or facebook or anything else, so there's no reason to consider those at all. To me, all of this looking into Trayvon's social media sounds like nothing more than trying to see if he 'deserved it', or 'had it coming'. I'm not saying that the poster I'm responding to is specifically saying that, just that it's disturbing to me that his tweets or pictures could be relevant at all.

Watchmen do size people up, and should...

Sadly this ended in a tragedy [
But so far I have not seen anything that proves anything except that the police was not doing an investigation.
This does infuriate me. There is nothing fair about not investigating, to get an accurate account of the events.[/B][/COLOR]