17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #13

[stmarysmead]

The issue is that the OP stated as fact that NBC altered the recording for nefarious purposes.

It was a stupid edit to make, and it had the effect of making it look like GZ brought up race first and not as a response to a question, and some editor surely should have caught it... but we don't know if it was done with the intent of making GZ look bad, or because they needed to cut seconds from the segment to make it fit the time slot and made a bad choice, or what.

This is one very good example of why we ask that you please clearly mark your opinions with IMOs, and support your inferences with linkable facts. lease:

In my opinion, in a case as emotionally charged as this, it is unconsionable to make such an error. We should demand that the media take extra care not to inflame an already difficult situation. The fact that they did not correct their own error and make an effort to see the correct version got out is also pertinent.

IMO...Accident or ot, it affected the sense of whether this was a racist act or not. Since this is the heart of the whole tragedy for many...what a reckless mistake to make...if not deliberate. Do you think it was a "mistake" that Crystal Mangum's arrest record was on the back on the sports pages in the NEWS and OBSERVER....while the Lacrosse team was exoriated daily on the front page?

Yes, IMO, I see the possibility of a mistake...but strange how often it is in line with the media's agenda or opinion about the story in question.

 

[Hopeful One]

I do see a gash. enlarge this and you too will see.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=21353

As I've said before, I don't see a gash and I don't see how anyone can see gash unless they're desperately wanting to.

I see a possible birthmark but, more likely, a random balding pattern. It seems his head is shaved and that makes those patterns more noticeable.

:moo:

 

[OneLove]

For me JUST MY TAKE
watching Trayvons family in any tape, is a heart break.
Nobody should have to bury their child, children are supposed to bury their parents.

But I do not believe anything coming from this family’s camp.
I do not believe anything coming from GZ camp either.
Because both camps are invested to win the case, they love thier family.

I am invested in justice and to change a law that can have mad men
out just killing without a thorough investigation.
This law has to be repaired somehow, and now is the time.

I totally agree with you about the timing being right to insure that proper investigations are ALWAYS done when someone has been killed.

On believing what people say, no matter which family or side, I remain open to every possibility until a particular piece of the picture has been shown to be a lie. Then I make reasonable conclusions about only that piece of the puzzle. The puzzle slowly begins to fill in over time.

I believe that choosing to believe everything said is either a lie or not a lie without evidence to show otherwise is BIAS, plain and simple. This is why there was no investigation done in the first place; there was a BIAS towards believing what came out of one person's mouth without obtaining an evidentiary composite to back that up.

I am seeing plenty of bias slanted towards both sides in this case, so I totally agree with you in calling for an investigation.

 

[songline]

Why should GZ have "known better" to follow a stranger in his neighborhood late at night if the neighborhood has a Watch system setup? The fact that TM was just returning from the candy store, visiting someone in the complex, and innocent of conspiring to rob...was not flashing in the sky. GZ followed him to watch him. Think of all the cases of home invasion, rape, murder of young girls of all skin hues, alone in their apartments at night. HOw often have we thought..."If only someone had been watching...if only someone had asked that person why he was there!" We pray that neighbors care enough to get involved.

Now, I have read all the speculation about GZ being over zealous...and that could be the case. No matter what, this young man should not have lost his life. But I have also read TM's tweets...and the way he wanted his friends to perceive him. It's the way a lot of teenagers want to present themselves...the language is offensive but common enough at a certain age. It's not "blaming the victim" to take into account the FACTUALl way HE PRESENTED himself on social media. HIS WORDS. It does not mean that he was not a GOOD YOUNG MAN...but it shows how he wished his PEERS to perceive him.

Remembering that he was talking to his girlfriend, did he decide to be the person he posed as on the Internet...the "tough guy"...and confront this shorter. older guy who was annoying him, following him? Obviously , NOT if he knew there was a gun. But, knowing teenagers...reading those tweets...is it IMPOSSIBLE that TM was the aggressor?

Can't we wait for the facts before we demand trials, convictions...anything?

Again, without a gun...this might have been nothing more than a fistfight. Under no scenario, should this young man have ended up dead. His parents DO deserve facts. Zimmermann deserves them too. But only facts. Not media twisted "evidence." Not witnesses now changing stories because it's dangerous to defend a man who has a Life or death Bounty on his head. Not the DEMANDS for trial no matter what the evidence or the Law might be. The community demanded the Lacrosse players be indicted without evdence...and a now disbarred DA did so...to get re-elected. That is not justice...that is mob rule.

GREAT POST :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

 

[BuzzieCat]

This article has been linked before, but I'm trying to find out if GZ was really in the criminal justice program or not.
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...munity-seminole-state-college-insurance-agent

"He re-enrolled in 2009 and was working toward an Associate in Arts degree in a general studies program, according to the college."

So he was in the general studies program?

Here's the requirements to apply in Orlando: http://www.cityoforlando.net/police/misc/recruiting.htm
U.S. Citizen - Minimum age: 21 - High school graduate or G.E.D. (they prefer 2 or 4 year college degree) - Current driver license - good physical condition - vision requirement - good moral character -
no felony convictions - no misdemeanor involving moral character, perjury, or false statements - complete rigorous hiring process - pass civil service test - reside w/i 35 miles of headquarters ETC

 

[Isabelle]

Pardon me if someone has already mentioned this, but NBC News doctored Zimmerman's 911 call in order to make him look bad.

That alteration is so insignificant, considering GZ put a bullet into Trayvon's chest and killed him. Anyone could hear all of the other 911 calls GZ made and hear the question being asked. Had the operator not asked the question, bet my life GZ would have reported color of individual, because he is a good NWC on patrol.

 

[mikeysmommom]

That alteration is so insignificant, considering GZ put a bullet into Trayvon's chest and killed him. Anyone could hear all of the other 911 calls GZ made and hear the question being asked. Had the operator not asked the question, bet my life GZ would have reported color of individual, because he is a good NWC on patrol.

IIRC One of the 911 callers at first thought GZ was black then realized he was Hispanic after he got up and was pacing.It was dark out.

 

[OneLove]

But your son did not hid anything in his locker...
<modsnip>

And how would I or anyone know that unless my son's locker was searched?

And if his locker was searched, and they found there the same jewelry my son had hanging in his room for several years, we are going to make the leap that he must be HIDING them? What if he kept them there because he gave them out a piece at a time to his girl friends? What if he simply didn't want them anymore and slowly was selling them to his friends a piece at a time for spare change? Are either of these criminal? Is the fact that this jewelry was in his locker a CRIME? No, of course not. But treating it as though it WAS a crime would be ENORMOUSLY biased.

And frankly, people of color and people in poverty have ALWAYS been treated in this country with that bias. I believe it is time to make THAT a crime.

 

[mikeysmommom]

And how would I or anyone know that unless my son's locker was searched?

And if his locker was searched, and they found there the same jewelry my son had hanging in his room for several years, we are going to make the leap that he must be HIDING them? What if he kept them there because he gave them out a piece at a time to his girl friends? What if he simply didn't want them anymore and slowly was selling them to his friends a piece at a time for spare change? Are either of these criminal? Is the fact that this jewelry was in his locker a CRIME? No, of course not. But treating it as though it WAS a crime would be ENORMOUSLY biased.

And frankly, people of color and people in poverty have ALWAYS been treated in this country with that bias. I believe it is time to make THAT a crime.

He had the jewelry in his backpack ,TM said it was not his and his mom said she knew nothing about it.If it was his why would he say it was a friend who he refused to identify?If it was his from his room his mom would know.,she would have seen it.IMO

 

[Isabelle]

Is there any evidence that they *did* canvass the neighborhood? What do they say they did?

No one has mentioned it. What has been mentioned is when LE interviewed witnesses, they attempted to sway the witness' statements.

 

[stmarysmead]

That alteration is so insignificant, considering GZ put a bullet into Trayvon's chest and killed him. Anyone could hear all of the other 911 calls GZ made and hear the question being asked. Had the operator not asked the question, bet my life GZ would have reported color of individual, because he is a good NWC on patrol.

The altercation is not insignificant in the eyes of Florida law. If GZ was defending himself, than it's possible that he cannot be charged. If we do not like this, we need to rally to change the law. Our bets and guesses are not fact either.

And yes, TM's Facebook and Twitter are relevant. If I call myself "Firebird" on Twitter and give the impression that I am fascinated with fire...my words are quite important if our house burns down and my hysband is facing a charge of arson murder. Or is that defaming me...the victim? Now, of course, I could just be talking nonsense on the Internet and he might be a homocidal maniac...but my own words..the names I choose to be known by...the picture I choose to have friends see as MY IMAGE OF ME...are extremely relevant. IMO, of course.

 

[songline]

I forgot the whole point of this. If "sizing up" is based on bias, it is wrong and sometimes leads to wrongful death. AND if all it takes to be suspicious of someone is the way they are dressed and they "LOOK like they are on drugs" then anyone walking while singing, swinging their arms around to limber up, thinking of a memory that makes them grin or grimace, looking for shelter from a driving rain, these can ALL be MISTAKEN for being on drugs. It really doesn't take much. That is NO reason to stalk a person in the dark in the rain, rather, a sensible and REASONABLE person would NOT, imo.

Body language speaks loud in how we do size people up.

We had a client when I did a temporary job in the Bronx; he was short, walked like a
tough nasty dude with expression to on his face that he is mad and he can flatten someone.
But that was his intention.... The neighborhood did fear him but I found his sweet side &
that he is a good business man too.I also knew that he is a questionable guy.
He wanted to buy a property and I recommended one in a better area.
But I had to help prepare him - told him to change walk, and his expressions.
He was so proud to show me how he looks and walks when he is not in that area.
He admired me because I was not afraid. He listened to me and got a nice home for his family.
YES You can have a nice side, and be a . Sadly this is in jail today for murder he committed
10 year prior. I know I am lucky. One never knows what may have happened.
But you can size people up. I would never take a project up there again.

 

[gxm]

True, he looks just as bad even with the full version that's been played in the media over and over and over before that was ever shown.

I'm glad that NBC is investigating it. If it was edited purposefully then that's wrong, someone should get fired, no one ever said it's ok, but the 911 call unedited has been all over the media. To say that it was that one piece that led everyone to their conclusion is ridiculous.

And it's just as wrong as when certain high profile political pundits were so desperate to portray the victim as a that they spread a picture that wasn't even him.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...2/03/28/gIQAxaPhgS_blog.html?tid=pm_world_pop




And it's still absurd to me to say that GZ didn't know what race Trayvon was, he immediately said he looked black when asked, within 30 seconds of the 911 call, there was no no hesitation, no I'm not sure, he said he looks black. Most are intelligent enough to know that if we say someone looks black is because we saw what they looked like.

JMHO

BBM.

GZ was asked for a description, the dispatcher specifically questioned race. IMO, GZ was not sure that TM was black. He thought he might be but did not know for sure. IMO, it's clear that GZ had only glimpsed him and had not gotten a good look at TM's face. At the point he answered GZ could not say for sure. As TM had his hood pulled up to avoid the rain, he wasn't sure until TM turned to walk toward him and GZ was able to see TM's face, closer and from the front. Given that it was dark, I do not question GZ's "intelligence" because he wasn't, when answering a direct question, completely sure what race TM was.

FWIW, I am often mistaken for the wrong race/ethnicity. My mother is often mistaken for the wrong race/ethnicity and was once refused admittance to a "whites only" beach. And my daughter has been mistaken as biracial (black and white). Trust me, it happens. A lot.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

 

[gxm]

The altercation is not insignificant in the eyes of Florida law. If GZ was defending himself, than it's possible that he cannot be charged. If we do not like this, we need to rally to change the law. Our bets and guesses are not fact either.

And yes, TM's Facebook and Twitter are relevant. If I call myself "Firebird" on Twitter and give the impression that I am fascinated with fire...my words are quite important if our house burns down and my hysband is facing a charge of arson murder. Or is that defaming me...the victim? Now, of course, I could just be talking nonsense on the Internet and he might be a homocidal maniac...but my own words..the names I choose to be known by...the picture I choose to have friends see as MY IMAGE OF ME...are extremely relevant. IMO, of course.

Too true. People have lost their jobs because they posted something stupid or offensive on FB.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

 

[katydid23]

Is there any evidence that they *did* canvass the neighborhood? What do they say they did?

I was replying to someone who said, based upon the fact that the Martins were not visited that night, that it must mean they never canvassed. And I am saying that we do not know if that is true or not, just given that fact. They may well have canvassed. And there were a lot of witnesses from the immediate area who they interviewed, so they didn't just walk away without speaking to the neighbors.

 

[OneLove]

He had the jewelry in his backpack ,TM said it was not his and his mom said she knew nothing about it.If it was his why would he say it was a friend who he refused to identify?If it was his from his room his mom would know.,she would have seen it.IMO

So maybe his friend had Trayvon hold the jewelry for him so he didn't get in trouble with a girlfriend for having other girls' jewelry as 'tokens of affection' so to speak. I don't know. You don't know. Maybe girls "traded" their jewelry for some commodity. Maybe boys collected it as 'totems'. Having girl's jewelry in your backpack is not a crime. it was also Trayvon's right to protect a friend. He was questioned. He was let go.

I do not know. You do not know. It is a non issue in Trayvon's murder. That it is immediately ASSUMED by anyone that he must be a criminal because he had girls jewelry is egregious BIAS, imo.

Trayvon could be my son. If we go back far enough in time, we realize we truly are ALL one family. Some just have their barriers up too high to feel it.

 

[Donjeta]

The altercation is not insignificant in the eyes of Florida law. If GZ was defending himself, than it's possible that he cannot be charged. If we do not like this, we need to rally to change the law. Our bets and guesses are not fact either.

And yes, TM's Facebook and Twitter are relevant. If I call myself "Firebird" on Twitter and give the impression that I am fascinated with fire...my words are quite important if our house burns down and my hysband is facing a charge of arson murder. Or is that defaming me...the victim? Now, of course, I could just be talking nonsense on the Internet and he might be a homocidal maniac...but my own words..the names I choose to be known by...the picture I choose to have friends see as MY IMAGE OF ME...are extremely relevant. IMO, of course.

If there is something on FB that proves that TM was the aggressor here it is extremely relevant but unless GZ was his friend on FB or a psychic detective the image TM's FB friends saw would not imo have been much of a factor here.

The friends I have heard from seem to have liked TM and not thought he was violent and unstable.

 

[MarthaM]

The altercation is not insignificant in the eyes of Florida law. If GZ was defending himself, than it's possible that he cannot be charged. If we do not like this, we need to rally to change the law. Our bets and guesses are not fact either.

I don't see anything in the descriptions of that night's events, even Zimmerman's version, that indicate that Zimmerman was defending himself against anything that legally allowed him to shoot and kill Trayvon Martin.

And yes, TM's Facebook and Twitter are relevant. If I call myself "Firebird" on Twitter and give the impression that I am fascinated with fire...my words are quite important if our house burns down and my hysband is facing a charge of arson murder. Or is that defaming me...the victim? Now, of course, I could just be talking nonsense on the Internet and he might be a homocidal maniac...but my own words..the names I choose to be known by...the picture I choose to have friends see as MY IMAGE OF ME...are extremely relevant. IMO, of course.

I'm sure tweets and selected photos and other things on the internet are relevant to some people. They're just not relevant to me. When I look at these cases I'm always thinking... how would this play out in a trial? Would it tell anything about guilt or innocence? Does this give me any insight into what happened on a specific night? In this case, the contents of a Twitter account that are being tossed about for discussion aren't relevant at all. They don't tell me anything helpful.

 

[Footwarrior]

That alteration is so insignificant, considering GZ put a bullet into Trayvon's chest and killed him. Anyone could hear all of the other 911 calls GZ made and hear the question being asked. Had the operator not asked the question, bet my life GZ would have reported color of individual, because he is a good NWC on patrol.

The real question is why did GZ find TM suspicious? GZ didn't see TM commit a crime. Nor did he see TM carrying a crowbar, or testing doors to see if they were locked or any other behavior associated with burglars. All he saw was a pedestrian walking slow, something people often do while talking on the phone. The kicker for GZ appears to be that the person walking was young, male and black. In GZ's view, anyone matching that description was a criminal.

 

[Etilema]

This is my opinion about what you are saying.
His mom wants more then anything to believ in her child, so she thinks of all the things that
LOVE brings out of her. And she means what she says.
I also believe that GZ's family want to do the same.

I know however that enabling people looks just like this too.
It is love that makes us enable people.
I knew a family with a drug addicted son, they can bring out of his room all his trophies,
all his accomplishments, all his volunteer work…
The son used to steal for heroin… but all they can come up with is we give him plenty of money
there is no way he would steal… Yes they were wealthy, yes he used to steal.

Yep, I understand and don't disagree with what you are saying. On the other hand, some people give signs that they are covering for their kids when they know their real character. Like when the Anthonys covered for Casey, it was usually pretty obvious.