17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #14

[m00c0w]

And I can't help but think of that famous experiment on which they show people a picture of a black man and a white man arguing on a subway, then ask them to remember who in the scene had a weapon, and they were more likely to say the black man, when in fact the white man had the weapon in the picture.

That experiment speaks directly to the issues in this case, and we may see witness error based on racial bias, in addition to the plain reality that eye-witness accounts are notoriously unreliable anyway. For example, one witness said he saw the black man standing and the other man on the ground after the shot was fired, which seems highly unlikely.

JMO

BBM

That would, ironically, be Mary Cutcher in her 911 call. She thought Zimmerman was black. Or maybe her roommate did and she just relayed the information. JMO

 

[Emeralgem]

He said he was told TM approached GZ's vehicle made a comment so Gz rolled up the window..Then GZ got out of the vehicle( no clue why) and TM then confronted GZand the altercation happened at GZ's vehicle....And Sabryna Fulton just said it is not a black and white thing.It ia a right and wrong thing......Thia account makes no sence to me....IMHO JHMO and all that..Sorry took so long to post have not learned how to post faster or post links..HTH

I just saw the interview with the police chief. I hope he is fired...JMHO

 

[mikeysmommom]

I suspect that they are looking at the known facts of the case (or their interpretation of them), comparing these facts to the law, and applying what they feel is a reasonable standard of decency and justice. From this they likely feel that an arrest is justified. Nor are they alone; tens or even hundreds of millions of American's share their belief. In any case, wanting an immediate arrest is wanting justice -- justice and fairness they have so far been denied.

Keep in mind: the only person or people even potentially guilty of any kind of civil rights violation here would be Zimmerman, the police, or both. This family are the victims and they want justice.

Until all the facts are known at this point both are victims until we have all the evidence and all the facts.IMO

 

[shadowraiths]

February 27, 2012 news report ( link )

NB: video is in the upper left hand side of the article.

 

[Dr.Fessel]

I just saw the interview with the police chief. I hope he is fired...JMHO

What great words of wisdom did he have?

 

[csziggy]

I'm not building anything one way or the other. Just trying to figure this deal out like the rest of you are. I didn't know TM. I know nothing about his temperament, but I know mine very well. What ever happened would have happened long before it did with Trayvon.

I wasn't a skinny little 140-150 lb kid gonna take on an ex Rave bouncer. I was full grown at 17. Big difference between that and what I believe TM to be capable of. Particularly after seeing that blemish free video 35 minutes or so later?

Please, I don't care how many of his pals, buddies, and kin talk about diapers and such, I'll NEVER believe Trayvon Martin got the best of <modsnip> George to the point of his murder being justified.

I heard that boy screaming. Two experts convinced me of it last night.

What if Trayvon DID make it back to his back door and GZ saw him getting ready to go in the door. GZ with the frame of mind he had about young black men in hoodies, would have very likely assumed that Trayvon was breaking into the residence. After all, Trayvon would have no evidence that he was legally staying at the townhouse as a guest and the resident was out for the evening. Maybe GZ attempted to do a citizen's arrest at gun point and started walking Trayvon back to the street near where GZ expected the police to show up, near the clubhouse.

Trayvon could have argued with him and resisted going along. Maybe after going part way down the path, Trayvon realized that this was not LE, just some cop wanna be and simply stopped cooperating. Maybe he pushed GZ down or even gave him a punch in the nose, but there was no evidence on Trayvon's body (according to the mortician) or GZ's body and clothing (from the SPD surveillance video) to indicate a serious life and death struggle.

I could see GZ with his temper (as described by various of his past friends) losing it, pointing his gun at Trayvon, and threatening to kill himn. Then Trayvon would be in serious fear and danger for his life. From ALL descriptions of Trayvon's family, friends, and teachers, he was not an aggressive young man. That would explain the pleading for his life, wailing for 44 seconds.

From the sounds of the wails on the 911 recording, if that is what happened I don't believe Trayvon attacked GZ. Those wails did not come from someone on the attack. They came for someone who was pleading for his life. And they went on for FORTY FOUR seconds, far too long for the shooting to be a spur of the moment event.

If this was what happened, GZ DID commit cold blooded murder. No prosecutor would ever be able to prove it, though.

All of this of course is pure speculation and my theorizing, building on what you have put together.

 

[jjenny]

And I can't help but think of that famous experiment on which they show people a picture of a black man and a white man arguing on a subway, then ask them to remember who in the scene had a weapon, and they were more likely to say the black man, when in fact the white man had the weapon in the picture.

That experiment speaks directly to the issues in this case, and we may see witness error based on racial bias, in addition to the plain reality that eye-witness accounts are notoriously unreliable anyway. For example, one witness said he saw the black man standing and the other man on the ground after the shot was fired, which seems highly unlikely.

JMO

I don't think any of the witnesses in this case knew races of the people on the ground. None of the 911 calls mention what races the people fighting were. One the says that black man is standing after the shot apparently got the race wrong (Zimmerman would be the one standing), unless another person showed up at the scene.

 

[deelytful1]

I didn't make myself very clear in my post. I don't know if there was an ongoing investigation or not since the prosecutor swept in and put a halt to detaining GZ against the better judgment of the detective.

I think TM's family felt dismissed. And rightfully so, IMO. They didn't make much of an effort to determine who this child was that was laying in the morgue or to attempt to contact his next of kin. I don't blame them one bit for wanting to have this DA questioned/investigated.

I understand all too well how long it takes for the wheels of justice to turn. It's painfully slow. I had to fight like a rabid dog to get the DA to charge my daughter's killer. I was told he had bigger cases to worry about. I'm convinced the only reason he did is when he realized I wasn't going to shut up and go away. So I can totally appreciate the situation the Martin family is in. They must feel their child was disposable just as I felt. When it comes to losing a loved one, no case is more important than another.

I'm very sorry for the loss of your loved one.

Justice for Trayvon.

SO sorry Suzi.. that's a battle the parent of a murdered child should NEVER have to fight... The Martins must be going through HELL just trying to get justice for their son. I can't and never want to be able to empathize with this situation...
Thanks for your post.

 

[Dr.Fessel]

What if Trayvon DID make it back to his back door and GZ saw him getting ready to go in the door. GZ with the frame of mind he had about young black men in hoodies, would have very likely assumed that Trayvon was breaking into the residence. After all, Trayvon would have no evidence that he was legally staying at the townhouse as a guest and the resident was out for the evening. Maybe GZ attempted to do a citizen's arrest at gun point and started walking Trayvon back to the street near where GZ expected the police to show up, near the clubhouse.

Trayvon could have argued with him and resisted going along. Maybe after going part way down the path, Trayvon realized that this was not LE, just some cop wanna be and simply stopped cooperating. Maybe he pushed GZ down or even gave him a punch in the nose, but there was no evidence on Trayvon's body (according to the mortician) or GZ's body and clothing (from the SPD surveillance video) to indicate a serious life and death struggle.

I could see GZ with his temper (as described by various of his past friends) losing it, pointing his gun at Trayvon, and threatening to kill himn. Then Trayvon would be in serious fear and danger for his life. From ALL descriptions of Trayvon's family, friends, and teachers, he was not an aggressive young man. That would explain the pleading for his life, wailing for 44 seconds.

From the sounds of the wails on the 911 recording, if that is what happened I don't believe Trayvon attacked GZ. Those wails did not come from someone on the attack. They came for someone who was pleading for his life. And they went on for FORTY FOUR seconds, far too long for the shooting to be a spur of the moment event.

If this was what happened, GZ DID commit cold blooded murder. No prosecutor would ever be able to prove it, though.

All of this of course is pure speculation and my theorizing, building on what you have put together.

I think it happened right along those lines and I think that lead detective has some evidence to go along with that.

 

[iluvmua]

He said he was told TM approached GZ's vehicle made a comment so Gz rolled up the window..Then GZ got out of the vehicle( no clue why) and TM then confronted GZand the altercation happened at GZ's vehicle....And Sabryna Fulton just said it is not a black and white thing.It ia a right and wrong thing......Thia account makes no sence to me....IMHO JHMO and all that..Sorry took so long to post have not learned how to post faster or post links..HTH

Police said TM started two confrontations. What he is saying is the first encounter.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...ayvons-death/2012/03/28/gIQA6MKhhS_story.html

According to Tracy Martin, the Sanford, Fla., detective recounted this sequence of events: Trayvon Martin walked up to Zimmerman&#8217;s vehicle and asked why he was following him. Zimmerman denied following the youth and rolled up the car window. Minutes after Trayvon walked away, Zimmerman got out of his vehicle. (1st encounter)


Then came the second encounter, according to Tracy Martin&#8217;s recollection of the detective&#8217;s account. Trayvon Martin appeared from behind a building in Zimmerman&#8217;s gated community, approached him and demanded, &#8220;What&#8217;s your problem, homie?&#8221;


Why was Trayvon behind a building?

When Zimmerman replied that he didn&#8217;t have a problem, Martin said, &#8220;You do now.&#8221; The unarmed teenager hit Zimmerman, knocked him to the ground, pinned him down and told him to &#8220;shut the [expletive] up.&#8221;

During the beating, Zimmerman pulled his gun and fired one shot at close range into Martin&#8217;s chest. &#8220;You got me,&#8221; the teenager said, falling backward.

If TM was found face down, then Why would he fall backwards?
(second Encounter)

 

[Chris_Texas]

Knock on wood.

If something happened to one of my children I would not give an outdated photo to the media, for release of any kind to represent my child. Why? It would be a betrayal to them. A photo of them from two, three, five years back is insulting; they were completely different children/people then. That would be saying 'this is when I liked John the best' or 'this is when I thought John was the cutest'. And then his passing would become about what i thought and not him!!! It wouldnt be about who he was and grew to be at the time of his death. Birth through early twenties, every year they are soooo different. With a tragedy like this I think it would be even more important to make sure that everyone knew who my wonderful child was. That is why I think this family was deceptive in the release of the photo. But I think they might have been coached by their attorney to do this. Jmo

Respectfully, if you believed that your son was suspected, stalked, killed, and the crime covered up because he was black (and it is not unreasonable for this family to believe these things) you might feel differently.

Look at what we know already happened, look at all the people desperately saying anything they can dream up in an effort to make this victim into the bad guy. They aren't doing it because they think Zimmerman is this fantastic heroic savior of the community.

 

[IzzyBlanche]

BBM
http://articles.cnn.com/2012-03-27/...tment-gated-community-account/3?_s=PM:JUSTICE


BBM
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1203/20/acd.02.html

Thank you.

I guess the contradiction, then, is whether GZ was on his knees or standing?

Logic says that unless GZ was vertically challenged, he couldn't have been standing and still had his hands on TM's back.

Yet the straddle and the hands on the back are the consistencies in the two versions.

 

[Isabelle]

BBM

That would, ironically, be Mary Cutcher in her 911 call. She thought Zimmerman was black. Or maybe her roommate did and she just relayed the information. JMO

Wonder how much the dark had to do with what the two men looked like. If it is not pitch black, and it probably wasn't due to lighting from apartment windows, it would take a few seconds for the eyes to adjust.

 

[suzihawk]

NOBODY is blaming Trayvon that he is dead. I am suggesting that he may not have
been scared enough to walk fast because he had long legs and get do distance quick.
NOW WHERE IS THE BLAME?

It is how you transelate it.

Oh, I think there are some here that are doing just that. Very disturbing, IMO

I hate superlatives. JMO

 

[Emeralgem]

What great words of wisdom did he have?

None.... For the most part he ignored the questions asked...Quite indignant.
JMHO

 

[m00c0w]

Thank you.

I guess the contradiction, then, is whether GZ was on his knees or standing?

Logic says that unless GZ was vertically challenged, he couldn't have been standing and still had his hands on TM's back.

Yet the straddle and the hands on the back are the consistencies in the two versions.

Mary Cutcher has said that he was standing in that position in the majority of her interviews. Her story just doesn't add up to me.

 

[Isabelle]

He sounded sober I am sure officers talked to him that night,same could be said about Mary maybe she was drinking and that is why she is denying her sworn statement.JMO

Mary is denying her sworn statement? In what way? Thanks.

 

[mikeysmommom]

Thank you.

I guess the contradiction, then, is whether GZ was on his knees or standing?

Logic says that unless GZ was vertically challenged, he couldn't have been standing and still had his hands on TM's back.

Yet the straddle and the hands on the back are the consistencies in the two versions.

IMO he might have bend down to check for a pulse or to see if he was breathing.Might also have been checking to see if he was armed.JMO

 

[Wise Old Owl]

Not necessarily. Responding officers did move the body around because they were administering CPR. It doesn't look like his feet are more than 4-5 feet away from the concrete, which would be consistent with him falling backwards from off of Zimmerman. JMO

At first, I thought the same thing - but then,

wouldn't they have just rolled him over? Or, if anything else, wouldn't they have moved him TO the sidewalk - I was thinking - kinda like Michael Jackson and all that stuff about doing CPR on the bed didn't make sense because its too soft - but then again, the ground is the ground so why move him anywhere - just roll him over. That's kinda what the police report said when the second officer got there he checked for a pulse and then they rolled him over and starting doing chest compressions. Which I also thought was weird - he was shot in the chest - wouldn't that be real messy and they would have had to have gotten their gloves out and on ................

Oh, this new footage - what I would give to see all that they filmed. Did they catch GZ? In the back of the cruiser? With the EMT's giving him aid? And did they scan the area - where we could see the evidence flags? Like where the casing was found?

I'm so glad this exists.



JMHO

 

[Dr.Fessel]

None, for the most part, he ignored the questions asked...Quite indignant.
JMHO

He is still on vacation I hope?