17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #16

[lauriej]

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57403716/friend-of-martin-shooter-id-do-the-same-thing/

Friend of Martin shooter: I'd do the same thing

Frank Taaffe is his neighbor. Over the last year, they both guarded their subdivision as crime-watch volunteers.

"I more or less patrolled this sector right here (holds up arms), whereas George took care of the entire complex," he said.

He added: "I would see him in the evening doing his patrol and we would wave, and he would walk his Rottweiler through the complex."

"Both looking for the same thing, you and he?" Strassmann asked.

"Yes. And George went above and beyond the call of duty. He was diligent and had a real passion and concern for the safety of all the residents here at Twin Lakes."

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Possibly one of our verified Lawyer's could weigh in here?
Is self-defense applicable when you are stalking someone? Is this in accordance with any applicable law?

:truce:

GZ wasn't stalking TM.

(2) Any person who willfully, maliciously, and repeatedly follows, harasses, or cyberstalks another person commits the offense of stalking, a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

He wasn't repeatedly following him.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes...ing&URL=0700-0799/0784/Sections/0784.048.html

 

[Sensei]

Well, then there's the "malicious intent" component. GZ had no malicious intent, he was trying to keep an eye on Trayvon until LE could get there.

That's not malicious. If he were trailing Trayvon hoping to jump him and rob him, or beat him up for thrills, that's malicious.

I think that a reasonable case could be made that there was in fact malicious intent simply because GZ was following TM. He had already called LE, and on that call he is recorded as saying, "These a##holes always get away" and that could be construed as malicious intent.

IMO he was following Trayvon with every intent to stop him and hold him until LE got there for thrills and atta boy pats on the back from his heros and the neighbors. IMO JMHO and stuff.

 

[Boytwnmom]

persue that type of interaction. While looking at this 911 history I was thinking about how no one in my neighborhood has ever called 911 except for medical issues. But we have all talked to each other and worked together, for example, to keep kids safe. My husband is always a nervous wreck about kids and cars and we're in a fairly quiet area but he has no problem telling anyone's kids to "look both ways" don't chase the ball into the street, don't play in the street etc. Anyway, did GZ always immdiately need to involve authority figures in neighborhood issues? Was he uncomfortable or just disinclined to interact with his neighbors and their kids?

Why wouldn't your first inclination be to talk to a stranger rather than call 911 and sic the police on them? It's not as though Trayvon was doing anything objectively suspicious or threatening which should have made GZ fear just talking to him. Even if he felt he needed to call 911 he could have asked while on the phone with them-called to Trayvon, "Hey, can I help you find a unit", "You look like you're getting wet, are you...lost...looking for someone.... visiting someone here"? Just a simple, non-threatening inquiry could have elicted the information that would have alleviated any need to continue thinking Trayvon was a dangerous criminal. You just want to scream,"Talk to each other people!".

As I've been saying ad nauseum - it is (was) all about choices. Our lives are just a series of choices - everyday, all day.

I have a DOJJ school about half a block from my house. It is where all juveniles that are progressing through the court system here attend. In the past few years - the number of students has grown expotentially.

Every day - around 3-ish, this school dismisses. While most take busses (I've counted at least 15 a day) which pass in front of my house, there are a number of students that walk my block down to a public bus stop.

These kids walk in groups and some are, IMO very scary looking individuals. However, there have been days when I'm out working in my front yard when school lets out. While they may look "scary" - I've found if I look up and smile and say "how ya doin'?" Very frequently they smile back at me and say "hi". Some even trade "small talk" with me.

It is all in how we perceive people. First impressions. I'm quite sure that if I had scowled at them or whatever that THAT first impression they now have of me - would have resulted in possibly some nasty remarks. But, as it is, I've lived here now for a few years and even recognize some of them and they always nod, or wave or say "hi".

Regardless of how GZ perceived TM - if he would have given just a little more contemplation on what the possible scenerios could have been at why TM was walking in the complex - this horrible crime would have never happened. A simple "Hi, how ya doin'?" or "Is everything ok - why you out walking in the rain?" would have gone a long way in defusing the quickly escalating situation.


JMHO

 

[ThoughtFox]

But if a person is following you - not touching you or yelling at you - but just following you...what are you defending yourself from? Is it justifiable to make a preemptive strike because you think a person shouldn't be following you? TM was the one who challenged GZ by asking why he was following him.

There are people in jail all over this country for doing exactly that. It's not legal to keep following someone around. No one has a right to make someone else feel threatened.

Following is considered a predatory act.

< mod snip > :twocents:

 

[tlcya]

http://www.defensegroup.com/general.php?category=Attorneys&headline=Hal+Uhrig

GZ's attorney, Mr. Ulrich appears to have extensive criminal defense experience.

 

[Sensei]

But if a person is following you - not touching you or yelling at you - but just following you...what are you defending yourself from? Is it justifiable to make a preemptive strike because you think a person shouldn't be following you? TM was the one who challenged GZ by asking why he was following him.

I am a female, and I can promise that if I am being followed at night when I am alone, and I make an attempt to get away from the person, and they continue to follow, then they would in fact be in severe danger of having a kneecap busted. If they make me afraid, I am going to do what I must because I would far rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6

You can expect nothing less if you make someone afraid in that manner IMO.

 

[ThoughtFox]

And if someone is afraid due to being followed, you can't say that they don't have a right to ask WHY someone is following them.

That is not "instigating" anything. In fact, it would have been well within Trayvon's rights to call 911 and report Zimmerman at that point, and most adults would have done so.

And I tell you what, I would have been running for the back porch myself.

If Zimmerman chose to chase down a stranger, that is NOT "stand your ground" or "castle doctrine." What Trayvon did to defend himself probably would be, though.

 

[Adrienne37]

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57403716/friend-of-martin-shooter-id-do-the-same-thing/

Friend of Martin shooter: I'd do the same thing

:sick:

(from the article)
"I more or less patrolled this sector right here (holds up arms), whereas George took care of the entire complex," he said.

He added: "I would see him in the evening doing his patrol and we would wave, and he would walk his Rottweiler through the complex."


Nice to know that he too has a problem following the law. I would love to know if Zimmerman was packing during his "patrolling." I would also love to know if Taaffe has a weapon on his person when he is doing his patrolling?

~jmo~

 

[Horace Finklestein]

There are people in jail all over this country for doing exactly that. It's not legal to keep following someone around. No one has a right to make someone else feel threatened.

Following is considered a predatory act.

< mod snip >. :twocents:

It wasn't repeated or malicious. It wasn't stalking. We don't know if TM felt threatened or scared or intimidated.

 

[Horace Finklestein]

I am a female, and I can promise that if I am being followed at night when I am alone, and I make an attempt to get away from the person, and they continue to follow, then they would in fact be in severe danger of having a kneecap busted. If they make me afraid, I am going to do what I must because I would far rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6

You can expect nothing less if you make someone afraid in that manner IMO.

Well don't be surprised if the person you attack defends themselves. You can't hold other people responsible for how you feel, much less attack them for it imo.

 

[ThoughtFox]

< mod snip >

But it was never going to turn out well because Zimmerman was projecting negative intent onto an innocent person. He was jumping to conclusions in the worst possible way from the first 911 call.

The fact that this guy had police on speed dial and felt that they existed to do his bidding as Neighborhood Watch "Captain" is part of the problem.

Of course George had a right to call 911, but he also didn't follow instructions. He also didn't tell the dispatcher he was armed with a gun while following an innocent person.

The injustice of all this makes me jump out of my skin sometimes. :banghead:

 

[Isabelle]

If it's card and someone is following me, or I even think they are following me, I am gonna start screaming and act like a crazy person!

 

[katydid23]

Great questions!

This is what I SUSPECT happened (in my opinion, my opinion only)...

I believe TM was the person primarily screaming and begging during most of the recordings. I believe he likely had a gun in his chest and was begging for his life. Neither of them were actually fighting at that point (nor seriously fighting even prior to this). When the witnesses came out and they both saw them, TM stopped screaming thinking he was safe, and his feelings were probably reinforced when GZ started calling for these guys to call the police. The police were exactly who TM wanted to see at that point.

When the witnesses went back inside, GZ yelled for help and pulled the trigger.

As for how he ended up face down, one easy answer is that GZ had his hand on the kid's sweatshirt and he jerked him forward and off of him.

AGAIN.. MY OPINION ONLY ABOUT ONE POSSIBLE SCENARIO! I am not accusing anyone of anything, just speculating.

BBM

But why the heck would GZ pull the trigger in cold blood like that? First of all, he knew there were people all over looking through their windows at them. And he knew LE was going to arrive any second. Why kill a teen for no reason? That does not make any sense. imo

 

[ThoughtFox]

Well don't be surprised if the person you attack defends themselves. You can't hold other people responsible for how you feel, much less attack them for it imo.

Right - I'm glad we agree that Trayvon had a right to defend himself.

 

[Sensei]

It wasn't repeated or malicious. It wasn't stalking. We don't know if TM felt threatened or scared or intimidated.

He had already classified TM as one of the A@@@## that always get away so we know that it was in fact malicious...he continued even after he told LE dispatch that Trayvon was running away toward the back gate. He continued on foot after that, While I don't know for certain what was in anyone's head, a reasonable inferrence of TM's behavior would lead a rational person to believe that he was intimidated and apprehensive...just as a rational person is unlikely to believe that he was planning to engage in a physical confrontation with GZ while still talking on the phone to his GF. IMO JMHO and stuff.

 

[ThoughtFox]

It wasn't repeated or malicious. It wasn't stalking. We don't know if TM felt threatened or scared or intimidated.

Yes we do - he told his girlfriend he felt threatened and she told him to run.

 

[marlame]

http://www.esia.net/State_Stalking_Laws.htm

The Florida law say that you are wrong.

Thank you for the LINK!

"Any person who willfully, maliciously, and repeatedly follows or harasses another person commits the offense of stalking, a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083."

Yep...Trayvon was repeatedly followed. (Even after 911 dispatch told GZ not to follow).

"..."Harass" means to engage in a course of conduct directed at a specific person that causes substantial emotional distress in such person and serves no legitimate purpose."

Per Trayvon's girlfriend who was on the phone with him, we know Trayvon was caused substantial emotional distress and was afraid (rightly so, given he was shot and killed for innocently walking in the neighborhood.) Add that...GZ had NO legitimate purpose, it appears GZ's actions meet the definition of Harassment.

Based upon FL Code...GZ was "stalking" Trayvon. :what:
JMHO~

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Two people are walking to the store. Person number one is 20 feet ahead of person number two. Can person number one call the police and have person number two arrested for stalking? I don't think so. Person number two was simply following person number one.

 

[Gin]

Oh, exactly! And I think that's what escalated things.

But it was never going to turn out well because Zimmerman was projecting negative intent onto an innocent person. He was jumping to conclusions in the worst possible way from the first 911 call.

The fact that this guy had police on speed dial and felt that they existed to do his bidding as Neighborhood Watch "Captain" is part of the problem.

Of course George had a right to call 911, but he also didn't follow instructions. He also didn't tell the dispatcher he was armed with a gun while following an innocent person.

The injustice of all this makes me jump out of my skin sometimes. :banghead:

BBM, ThoughtFox, that is exactly how I feel. Thank you for saying that. Justice seems slow, but I believe it will happen. It shouldn't even need to be pointed out that we should be able to walk about in a neighborhood without fear of being followed/stalked and shot to death.