17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #24

[Gin]

It certainly means you can call the cops and keep an eye on someone, and if they assault you and continue to threaten your life/health, you can shoot them.

The problem here is there were no witnesses to the beginning of the physical battle.

Or I guess a person that isn't all honest and squeeky clean could just pull the trigger, and then tell a little white lie about the "assault", or "physical battle."

SYG is a mess to me, but that's just my opinion. YMMV.

 

[krkrjx]

I have a feeling before this is all over that everyone of us will know that law inside and out.:wink:

Laws are often left open to interpretation but SYG states that a person threatened is "not required to retreat" but instead may stand their ground and use whatever force they deem necessary in the situation. (A poorly written law, to be sure, but it is what it is.)

The law in all its badness does not say that if one person retreats the other is allowed to pursue. But the fact that it does not specifically state that you may not pursue does not, IMO, translate into, "you have the right to follow the person you were feeling threatened by and then do whatever you see fit."

Reality is, once the threatening or suspicious person leaves, the threat is gone.

All that is needed now is a place in our courts for common sense. (Please don't get me started on that.)

 

[Deleted member 39678]

well I just asked over on the thread for lawyers about no arrest and evidence. I'm looking forward to learning what the answer is I just can't imagine having someone shot and killed, and having the shooter making claims of abuse and no pictures, no xrays, no blood samples taken. I sure hope I'm missing something about the SYG law.

I see that you left your question on the Caylee forum. You may want to add which case your referring to so the lawyers aren't confused.

 

[Velouria]

I think so, too. I did not see it as an eye roll. jmo

JMO LambChop, but I think the eye roll is his attempt to keep from crying. I often do that when I'm watching a sad movie or listening to sad music. While he appears to feel quite justified in his actions, he must be feeling the enormity of the situation hit him like a freight train.

 

[JennyMominRI]

At 17 or even now, at 42, if I were being followed, in a car, and then on foot, by a strange man, who then approaches me, I doubt I would be pleasant and agreeable. I would scream and yell and fight. Hey, I watch Criminal Minds
My youngest child is a 17 YO boy. I have taught him never to go close to a car if they are following him or asking him a question. He is to stay far back, And if that person gets out of the car or tries to approach him he is to run, scream, fight and do anything he can to prevent being taken by that man.
It sounds like Treyvon did that.
I wonder, if Treyvon had been a 17 yo girl, if people would have thought he should be polite and nice when being followed by a strange man, or if people would have thought her partially to blame if she fought back

 

[octobermoon]

I just visited that thread, and it's not THAT scary at all. :seeya: Just beware of anything green with a gun.

:floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

Oh everybody needs to read that exchange.

kwtioihkjgu (know what I mean)

:floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

 

[Velouria]

And thanks to Zimmerman not only is a child dead, but crime has increased in Sanford since this happened. The police have been busy with other things rather than their normal patrols..that IMO weren't that great to begin with.
This from my mother who had spoke to a couple of officers when her neighbor called them about someone possibly attempting to break into her garage.

I wonder what FT was doing when it happened?

Seriously though, justplainmetal, I'm sorry to hear that and hope your mom is okay.

 

[Cher352]

I agree. And she is such a new judge. I would really like to see a very experienced judge take on this case. There is no room for missteps here.

Exactly what I said yesterday. I think it is going to take a judge well versed in self-defense and the SYG law. She has only been on the bench since Jan 2011 so I doubt she has that much experience yet.

I do wonder though if AC's office or Gov Scott will have any say as to who replaces her. I know.... they shouldn't have any say but we all know how that goes.

 

[krkrjx]

GZ wasn't feeling threatened to begin with. That's the thing.

I agree, if someone threatens you and then you chase them around while they're running off, it would be outrageous to think you could shoot them and get away with it.

That's not what happened.

GZ was trying to keep Trayvon in his line of sight so he could tell the cops where this young man was, who GZ believed was probably there to commit property crimes.

I know what GZ is claiming.

I'm just not buying it.

 

[JeannaT]

At 17 or even now, at 42, if I were being followed, in a car, and then on foot, by a strange man, who then approaches me, I doubt I would be pleasant and agreeable. I would scream and yell and fight. Hey, I watch Criminal Minds
My youngest child is a 17 YO boy. I have taught him never to go close to a car if they are following him or asking him a question. He is to stay far back, And if that person gets out of the car or tries to approach him he is to run, scream, fight and do anything he can to prevent being taken by that man.
It sounds like Treyvon did that.
I wonder, if Treyvon had been a 17 yo girl, if people would have thought he should be polite and nice when being followed by a strange man, or if people would have thought her partially to blame if she fought back

I think this is where we disagree. I don't think Trayvon did anything like what you are describing you've taught your son to do. If he had, he'd be alive today, IMHO.

What he did was get irritated that GZ was following him, and approached him and verbally engaged him in a yelling match and then punched him.

I believe that's what happened.

 

[frenchvixen]

It certainly means you can call the cops and keep an eye on someone, and if they assault you and continue to threaten your life/health, you can shoot them.

The problem here is there were no witnesses to the beginning of the physical battle.

Why would TM assault him? He had no idea who he was?

 

[Gin]

At 17 or even now, at 42, if I were being followed, in a car, and then on foot, by a strange man, who then approaches me, I doubt I would be pleasant and agreeable. I would scream and yell and fight. Hey, I watch Criminal Minds
My youngest child is a 17 YO boy. I have taught him never to go close to a car if they are following him or asking him a question. He is to stay far back, And if that person gets out of the car or tries to approach him he is to run, scream, fight and do anything he can to prevent being taken by that man.
It sounds like Treyvon did that.
I wonder, if Treyvon had been a 17 yo girl, if people would have thought he should be polite and nice when being followed by a strange man, or if people would have thought her partially to blame if she fought back

ITA!
I don't believe for a second that children, teens or adults should be meek, pleasant and humble when being followed by a stranger.

 

[LinasK]

I am thinking self defense is what will be used. If it is known as we know here that in the position of "night watchman" it is illegal to carry your weapon why would the lawyer use SYG? We know that he was on his way to target from early on so I am thinking that the lawyer will probably stick with the target story. That way their story will not have changed. jmo

But... he was NOT a paid night watchman. He was only the volunteer Neighborhood Watch, which does not patrol. He however, did patrol according to his friend Frank.

 

[Velouria]

By Travon's girlfriend's account, Trayvon was the first person to verbally engage, and he wasn't civil. At all.

On the other hand, I don't know the social rules where Trayvon comes from. Would behaving in a civil way put him in danger? Was it necessary, from his experience in life, that you lead with an aggressive tone, rather than a humble one? Would acting pleasant have put him in danger in the environment where he was raised? Maybe. Could be.

I just think this was such a complete culture clash that it was a Perfect Storm. A teenager who behaves suspiciously, an overzealous white knight crime watch volunteer, neither of them had the social skills or desire to behave in an appropriate way, and then tragedy strikes due to misunderstandings and inflexibility on both their parts.

BBM

Where on earth are you getting this? Could you please link to the source that states his girlfriend described him as uncivil, rude, aggressive, threatening, or any facsimile thereof?

 

[JeannaT]

I just had an image of dogs in my head, and it illustrates my view of how this altercation happened.

You know when you're at the dog park, sometimes a dog goes up to another, and one is the clear aggressor and the other is trying really hard to diffuse the situation, at first get away, then posture in a very nonthreatening way.

Other times, two dogs encounter each other and both are bristling and their hackles are up and their lips are curled back and they're looking out of the sides of their eyes, a low growl begins and in an instant, both are locked in battle. Neither was making any attempt to diffuse the situation, both equally guilty, and even if you had it on videotape it would be hard to tell who started it. They both did.

That's how I picture the fight between Trayvon and GZ. I don't know if it were on videotape you could tell who "started" the physical altercation, but I think it's clear Trayvon started the verbal one.

 

[frenchvixen]

I don't disagree with that, really. Trayvon also had a right to stand his ground, although at the age of 17 he wouldn't have a right to carry a gun, I don't believe.

But he does have a right to defend himself if he is in real fear for his life or health.

And so does GZ. So the one with the best weapon wins.

This wouldn't have happened if either of them had behaved in a humble, agreeable way. But neither did.

No, this would not have happened if GZ stayed in his car.

 

[JeannaT]

BBM

Where on earth are you getting this? Could you please link to the source that states his girlfriend described him as uncivil, rude, aggressive, threatening, or any facsimile thereof?

I am referencing her description, and it wasn't civil. Or anyway, not in my neck of the woods.

 

[JeannaT]

No, this would not have happened if GZ stayed in his car.

No. Or if GZ hadn't gone to Target, or if Trayvon had gone to the store later or earlier.

If frogs had pockets they'd carry watches.

 

[LynnM]

On the other hand, I don't know the social rules where Trayvon comes from. Would behaving in a civil way put him in danger? Was it necessary, from his experience in life, that you lead with an aggressive tone, rather than a humble one? Would acting pleasant have put him in danger in the environment where he was raised? Maybe. Could be.

I just think this was such a complete culture clash that it was a Perfect Storm. A teenager who behaves suspiciously, an overzealous white knight crime watch volunteer, neither of them had the social skills or desire to behave in an appropriate way, and then tragedy strikes due to misunderstandings and inflexibility on both their parts.

That's where I disagree. Zimmerman did not cite any suspicious behavior to the operator on the non-emergency line. He said Trayvon was walking along, looking around, had something in his hands, appeared to be on drugs, not that he was looking in windows or trying doors or breaking into cars. Trayvon's girlfriend said that Trayvon asked "Why are you following me?" What is wrong with that? Why is that rude? What do you think he should have said to a strange man who didn't identify himself and was following him?

 

[rbrnmw2]

I hate all mother's who kill their children?

I hate all mother's that sit by and watch their "boyfriends" abuse and murder their children.

I hate all father's that kill their children.

I hate father's who kill their children to get back at the mother.

I hate all father's who allow their "girlfriends" to abuse and murder their children.

I'm not ignoring what is going on in Tulsa? I know full well what is going on in Tulsa. There was a case just yesterday where a father went and shot the mother of his children and his two children in a Cracker Barrell. The coward then killed himself.

I don't ignore anything. All these people get the same hate from me.

MOO

This post deserves a written thank you MOO