17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #24

[Velouria]

I just had an image of dogs in my head, and it illustrates my view of how this altercation happened.

You know when you're at the dog park, sometimes a dog goes up to another, and one is the clear aggressor and the other is trying really hard to diffuse the situation, at first get away, then posture in a very nonthreatening way.

Other times, two dogs encounter each other and both are bristling and their hackles are up and their lips are curled back and they're looking out of the sides of their eyes, a low growl begins and in an instant, both are locked in battle. Neither was making any attempt to diffuse the situation, both equally guilty, and even if you had it on videotape it would be hard to tell who started it. They both did.

That's how I picture the fight between Trayvon and GZ. I don't know if it were on videotape you could tell who "started" the physical altercation, but I think it's clear Trayvon started the verbal one.

What are you basing this<Mod Snip>on? We aren't talking about dogs. Dogs don't pursue and shoot each other for walking down the street.

 

[JeannaT]

That's where I disagree. Zimmerman did not cite any suspicious behavior to the operator on the non-emergency line. He said Trayvon was walking along, looking around, had something in his hands, appeared to be on drugs, not that he was looking in windows or trying doors or breaking into cars. Trayvon's girlfriend said that Trayvon asked "Why are you following me?" What is wrong with that? Why is that rude? What do you think he should have said to a strange man who didn't identify himself and was following him?

I think she actually said he said "Man what is your problem?" and then GZ said I don't have a problem, and then wham the dogfight began.

When I picture this, if Trayvon were afraid of GZ - that is, believed GZ intended to knife him, kidnap him, rob him, etc., and knowing that Trayvon wasn't armed, I don't think he would have verbally engaged GZ, and asked him what his problem was. If he truly feared for his safety from GZ, I think he would have broken into a run and gotten away and not forced an encounter.

I think he knew what GZ was doing, and it pissed him off so he took the first swing. i believe Trayvon knew GZ suspected him, and was following him to watch him, and so Trayvon attacked him first verbally and then physically.

That's my humble opinion only. I can't see verbally engaging someone who you are truly afraid of, if you are unarmed, if you have the chance to get away which Trayvon certainly did.

 

[octobermoon]

FYI Judge Stan Strickland is suppose to be on Nancy Grace tonight.

 

[ThoughtFox]

That's not true. You have no duty, under the SYG, to attempt to flee. That's why it's called Stand Your Ground. Any place you can legally be, and are not committing a crime, you have the right to Stand Your Ground and shoot to kill if someone is threatening you with serious bodily injuries or death.

There's no clause that you have an obligation to "get away" if you can.

Yes you may be right, which is why they need to make the law conform with common sense and some new reasonable standards. JMOO :cow:

Frankly, I think it's always better to just walk away, no matter who is holding the weapon. :twocents:

 

[JeannaT]

Could you provide a link for that please?

In looking back, it appears that was GZ's dad's statement, not in the girlfriend's statement.

Sorry.

 

[grandmaj]

Peeps remember this is the thread that is moderated and we are trying to keep things factual as this very complicated case.

No picking or poking at one another, and use your links please. Don't post things just to incite. Please and thanks.

Check your GPS we don't want you to get lost the Sound Off thread is here:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168453&page=88

 

[ThoughtFox]

On the other hand, I don't know the social rules where Trayvon comes from. Would behaving in a civil way put him in danger? Was it necessary, from his experience in life, that you lead with an aggressive tone, rather than a humble one? Would acting pleasant have put him in danger in the environment where he was raised? Maybe. Could be.

I just think this was such a complete culture clash that it was a Perfect Storm. A teenager who behaves suspiciously, an overzealous white knight crime watch volunteer, neither of them had the social skills or desire to behave in an appropriate way, and then tragedy strikes due to misunderstandings and inflexibility on both their parts.

First of all, everything I've seen makes me believe that Trayvon acted as any normal person would while being followed by a stranger. He was scared and told his girlfriend, and she urged him to run, but I guess Trayvon wasn't sure what was happening, and then it was too late. He had no idea what was about to happen to him, like many victims.

As far as manners and civility, which I'm not sure that George knew anything about either, under Florida Law it makes absolutely no difference what Trayvon said or didn't say. Verbal provocation is not a test of Stand Your Ground.

From the Florida Gun Licensing Q&A

Q. What if someone uses threatening language to me so that I am afraid for my life or safety?

A. Verbal threats are not enough to justify the use of deadly force. There must be an overt act by the person which indicates that he immediately intends to carry out the threat. The person threatened must reasonably believe that he will be killed or suffer serious bodily harm if he does not immediately take the life of his adversary.

 

[Emma Peel]

I'm interested in why this case has become such a lightening rod for hate.

Just last week there were two men from Tulsa who went out at night, armed, with the intent of shooting Black people and they did - 5 of them - totally innocent people they had no beef with whatsoever.

Why are they being ignored, and George Zimmerman probably wouldn't survive outside of the jail right now?

I guess I didn't ever really understand the seething hate people have for CA either, how she's different from any other mom who kills their darling child and then lies about it.

It's baffling why the public becomes riveted on certain cases, with a blood lust for vengeance, and other cases are pretty much ignored that seem much worse to me.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/13/us-usa-crime-tulsa-idUSBRE83C19K20120413

the bad tulsa dudes have been charged with both murder, and hate crime.
and jesse jackson says TM's case has something to do with the swiftness of those charges.

"Today's hate-crime charges are a step in the right direction," Jackson said in a telephone interview. "But the FBI and the Department of Justice must be a part of this. When you have five people shot randomly and arbitrarily, for revenge, that is a gross civil rights violation."

Jackson said the state's hate crime statute was not strong enough to be a deterrent, saying 11 cases have been prosecuted in Tulsa County in a decade. He said Oklahoma had a permissive gun culture and a "Stand Your Ground" law that emboldens vigilantes and "keeps people in danger."

......snipped

The Tulsa killings followed the shooting death of Florida teenager Trayvon Martin, a case that has captured national attention largely because of race.

......snipped

Jackson credited the outcry over the delay in arresting Zimmerman in Martin's death with pushing Tulsa authorities to act decisively and quickly in this case.

just FYI

 

[Deleted member 39678]

BBM

HUH?

She absolutely did not say that.

She said Trayvon said "why are you following me" and GZ said "what are you doing here."

I do understand though, the only way to really defend GZ is just to make things up out of thin air.

JMHO

BBM
How do we know exactly what Trayvons girlfriend heard that night. I'm not saying that she's lying about what she heard but would she relate anything that may put Trayvon in a bad light?

 

[2goldfish]

By Travon's girlfriend's account, Trayvon was the first person to verbally engage, and he wasn't civil. At all.

On the other hand, I don't know the social rules where Trayvon comes from. Would behaving in a civil way put him in danger? Was it necessary, from his experience in life, that you lead with an aggressive tone, rather than a humble one? Would acting pleasant have put him in danger in the environment where he was raised? Maybe. Could be.

I just think this was such a complete culture clash that it was a Perfect Storm. A teenager who behaves suspiciously, an overzealous white knight crime watch volunteer, neither of them had the social skills or desire to behave in an appropriate way, and then tragedy strikes due to misunderstandings and inflexibility on both their parts.

I never read miss manner's Rules On Proper Behaviour & Etiquette While Being Stalked On a Dark & Rainy Night .....so maybe I'm not one to really say, but I'd say Trayvon was quite polite and I *know* he was a damn sight more polite than I would have been. he had EVERY right to be there and was being followed!

 

[Phoenixfla]

I am thinking self defense is what will be used. If it is known as we know here that in the position of "night watchman" it is illegal to carry your weapon why would the lawyer use SYG? We know that he was on his way to target from early on so I am thinking that the lawyer will probably stick with the target story. That way their story will not have changed. jmo

Can you please provide a link where it states that it is illegal for him to have his gun if he is acting as a watchman?

It may be a recommendation by the police neighborhood watch coordinator, but that does not make it illegal.

 

[AngelWings444]

Deleted post. Already cleared up.

 

[beach]

In looking back, it appears that was GZ's dad's statement, not in the girlfriend's statement.

Sorry.

Thanks for clarifying!

Just to be even clearer, GZ's dad and his brother have made several statements but as we know neither has any firsthand knowledge. However, the girlfriend does have some firsthand knowledge of what she heard since she was on the phone.


Again, thanks for clearing it up because I thought I had missed something big!

 

[LinasK]

In looking back, it appears that was GZ's dad's statement, not in the girlfriend's statement.

Sorry.

Which means it's hearsay and not evidence, unless RZ is called to testify as Cindy Anthony was. Still doesn't mean I believe him!

 

[flourish]

Wow, again...incredulous that folks are still continuing to essentially criticize TM for not being polite enough to suit some people's expected level of manners?

Yeah, next time I feel threatened by someone following me in the dark, I'm just gonna turn around and say, "Well, hello there! Can I offer you some tea?"

:what:

 

[Gin]

Can you please provide a link where it states that it is illegal for him to have his gun if he is acting as a watchman?

It may be a recommendation by the police neighborhood watch coordinator, but that does not make it illegal.

JMO/IMO, etc...

It's not illegal for a volunteer armed patrolman to carry a gun. It's just really stupid of the condo board and the condo association to let it happen. He's not an employee, he's not insured, he's not bonded, he's just doing what he wants.

What Zimmerman did was not in any way neighborhood watch.

 

[JeannaT]

Wow, again...incredulous that folks are still continuing to essentially criticize TM for not being polite enough to suit some people's expected level of manners?

Yeah, next time I feel threatened by someone following me in the dark, I'm just gonna turn around and say, "Well, hello there! Can I offer you some tea?"

:what:

Would you turn around and challenge them verbally if it's highly reasonable you could outrun them and safety was 70 yards away?

 

[krkrjx]

BBM
How do we know exactly what Trayvons girlfriend heard that night. I'm not saying that she's lying about what she heard but would she relate anything that may put Trayvon in a bad light?

If this goes to trial and it comes out that Trayvon instigated the fight, so be it. But for now, we just do not know what went down, yet it is stated over and over that Trayvon punched and/or jumped GZ. That may or may not be true but until we know for sure it is irritating to see statements to that affect that are not followed by IMO, JMO, MOO, or what-have-you.

That's all JMO.

 

[LinasK]

Can you please provide a link where it states that it is illegal for him to have his gun if he is acting as a watchman?

It may be a recommendation by the police neighborhood watch coordinator, but that does not make it illegal.

He was NOT a watchman- paid or unpaid, nor should he have been patrolling, although he was. He was a volunteer Neighborhood Watch, who is not supposed to patrol, nor carry a weapon. GZ also had a Concealed Weapon Permit, which is in conflict with his role...

 

[mercuriod]

I think she actually said he said "Man what is your problem?" and then GZ said I don't have a problem, and then wham the dogfight began.

When I picture this, if Trayvon were afraid of GZ - that is, believed GZ intended to knife him, kidnap him, rob him, etc., and knowing that Trayvon wasn't armed, I don't think he would have verbally engaged GZ, and asked him what his problem was. If he truly feared for his safety from GZ, I think he would have broken into a run and gotten away and not forced an encounter.

I think he knew what GZ was doing, and it pissed him off so he took the first swing. i believe Trayvon knew GZ suspected him, and was following him to watch him, and so Trayvon attacked him first verbally and then physically.

That's my humble opinion only. I can't see verbally engaging someone who you are truly afraid of, if you are unarmed, if you have the chance to get away which Trayvon certainly did.

Nooooo, that is NOT what TM's girlfriend said, that is what GZ's DAD, who was not there, not on the phone w/ GZ and has NO personal knowledge of what went on said. It is just ONE of the many different versions of what GZ's dad, brother and BFF Taaffe have tried to bs the public with.