17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #24

[LinasK]

Great post and I agree 100%

Blackstone's formulation - "better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer"

Zimmerman is NOT innocent- he himself admitted he shot Trayvon. It's his motivation that's in question, not the perp.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

SYG is different than self defense used at trial. The SYG is a hearing prior to a trial. After the ruling on the SYG hearing, each party can appeal for a long time, prior to it ever seeing the courtroom. Then, if SYG doesn't work, GZ can try to use self defense at trial.

R Hornsby's blog can help explain things.

Florida Statute 776.032

This statutory enactment created what is known as “criminal prosecution immunity.” And stated that a person who lawfully defended themselves is “immune” from prosecution from arrest, detention, or prosecution.

As the procedure for making the determination of whether a person was “immune” from criminal prosecution was not defined by the legislature, the Florida Supreme Court cleared up the issue in Dennis v. State, 51 So. 3d 456 (Fla. 2010) and ruled:

A defendant may raise the question of statutory immunity [from criminal prosecution prior to trial] and, when such a claim is raised, the trial court must determine whether the defendant has shown by a preponderance of the evidence that the immunity attaches.

The result of this statute and the Florida Supreme Court’s ruling is that a defendant can now raise self defense at two stages in the criminal prosecution.

First, a defendant can file a motion to dismiss asking the court to find that they are entitled to dismissal by using the procedure outlined in by the Florida Supreme Court. If the court denies the motion, the defendant is still allowed to raise the issue with the jury.

http://blog.richardhornsby.com/

 

[LolaMoon08]

Seriously! I went in to a collegue's office to "report" the murder 2 charge. lol We were discussing it and I realized that I knew WAY too much about the details so I was like, "and, oh boy, so how 'bout those Coyotes" lmbo

Oh just wait, Karmady!! We'll be having you pull your hair out trying to determine if it shows any signs of post mortem root banding before you know it! Don't even get me started on the pizza experiments! :floorlaugh:

 

[legalmania]

jjenny, I had to remove the blog link but please read my 2nd post above.

You are missing a very, very important part here. The evidentiary hearing is everything to GZ. If the judge finds during the evidentiary hearing that GZ met the burden of proof in that hearing, there will be no trial. Game over.

All I know to tell you for sure is that it is an affirmative defense. The rules are different.

I'm done trying to explain it. Maybe gitana or AZ can help clarify better than I have been able to.

For those of you who are interested here is the legal definition of evidentiary hearing which is synonymous with preliminary hearing

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Evidentiary+hearing

Even though I dislike using Wikipedia, I used it here just to explain the similarity between evidentiary and preliminary hearing.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preliminary_hearing"]Preliminary hearing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

 

[mercuriod]

I'm not sure why your asking me all these questions. I was just curious why mercuriod feels that 17yr olds are "calloused" now a days compared to 17yr olds of the past.

I feel this way because I work with them everyday, some of the things that they discuss I wouldn't even be comfortable discussing to this day and lets just say I will admit to being over 40.

 

[LolaMoon08]

Wait... it is not about NY
On PROM night if you have a GF EVEN in movies not only in NY
they usualy go together. Am I missing something?

His mom said he was looking forward to go to the Prom

Doesn't mean he was going with her!! :floorlaugh: If Trayvon would have lived... they could have broken up the next day for all we know. High School relationships are sooooo crazy!

 

[Yoda]

Hey Yoda!!

Hey lolamoon! Spotty internet here in Florida has made me miss all the fun discussions! Luckily I'll be heading back north 2morrow where I will be back to bombarding ws with my highly intelligent views. Rest your fingers while you can.

 

[Karmady]

She didn't not do nothing, she tried to call SFD and they did not return her call, she told her mother. Why are you trying to put this terrible burden on a 15 year old girl? She was 15 years old for gods sake! Hasn't she suffered enough? She has already had to be hospitalized because of all of this, now you want to put blame on her for SFD's failings? Why don't you just go ahead and dig the grave for her next to Trayvon.

I thought this point was still up in the air. My apologies if I missed it. Would you mind pointing me in the right direction on that? TIA

 

[mercuriod]

He can still use SYG at trial, too. And that's what I'm wondering. What the SYG burden is at trial.

No he would not be able to use SYG if it goes to trial, if a judge finds against his claim of SYG then he can try to use self defense at trial but a judge before hand makes the determination if SYG can be used.

 

[beach]

I'm reading something right now that says that the burden at trial is on the prosecution to disprove self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt. I'm trying to find the case law that's the basis of the discussion :::no life::: lol

Yes, and I think that is right.

The immunity from prosecution claim per the SYG law will be ruled upon during the evidentiary hearing. There is no doubt whatsoever in my mind that the burden is on GZ to prove that he had reason to believe that his life was in imminent danger to avoid prosecution during that hearing where the judge determines if he is immune from prosecution per SYG.

If she finds that there is not a preponderance of the evidence to convince her, there will be a jury trial. During the trial, he can still claim self-defense. However, he will no longer be afforded immunity protection under SYG. The defense will have to present enough evidence to convince 12 jurors that Trayvon presented a threat to his life.


getting off the merry-go-round now. I know in my head but I suck at explaining this kind of stuff.

 

[songline]

I'm sure she did know where he lived, but he wasn't staying at his own home, remember?

How do you know she said nothing to anyone for 3 weeks?

This case took off like wildfire, and we had not heard anything bout her, dont you think that if you call and say I am trayvons GF anyone & everyone would talk to you? it was on the news... He may not have been staying at home, but that is how she can find someone to listen to her. If you all say that nobody will listen to her surly if you cant be heard you go till you can be.
I would be mortifyied if my BF with whom I speak 3-5 times a day is being followed and I could not find him. THEIS IS NOT SMALL IN MY OPINION.
ther is something here that we do not know. BESIDE TIME TABELSE.

:moo:

 

[katydid23]

Just a minor point of interest. The Judge who is hearing the case is married to a lawyer in Nejame's firm...did we know that?

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-04-13/trayvon-martin-judge-may-step-down-over-husband-s-boss

Yes. Some people have said she may recuse herself because of that awkward connection. I hope she does because she is a brand new judge. I think they need a more experienced judge to take this high profile case on.

 

[Phoenixfla]

She didn't not do nothing, she tried to call SFD and they did not return her call, she told her mother. Why are you trying to put this terrible burden on a 15 year old girl? She was 15 years old for gods sake! Hasn't she suffered enough? She has already had to be hospitalized because of all of this, now you want to put blame on her for SFD's failings? Why don't you just go ahead and dig the grave for her next to Trayvon.

I don't think it is out of line for songline to ask those questions. I know if I was a defense attorney I would want her phone records to back up her claim that she attempted to call the police.

Why don't you just go ahead and dig the grave for her next to Trayvon.

I really don't think this was necessary.

Everyone wants justice. Sometimes that requires people answer some questions that they don't want to answer. A tragedy has occurred, but it would be another tragedy to jail an innocent man. (If that turns out to be the case)

 

[suzihawk]

OT - Why do people on WS keep referring to Trayvon Martin as "Tray?" I don't believe his own family refers to him, in the media, using that name. I prefer to call him by his full name, Trayvon Martin, Trayvon, or abbreviate using TM. Maybe it's just me.. :waitasec:

I'm not so bothered by someone referring to him as "Tray". I prefer his given name, personally. But I get annoyed when I see it blatanatly misspelled (Trevon, Treyvan, etc.). Here, in the media, and other places. It's not just Trayvon's name either. Caylee's name has been butchered as well as Stephany Flores and others. It's just a pet peeve of mine. It's such a simple and respectful thing and one of the only things the family has left to hold on to.

/soapbox

 

[mercuriod]

BBM :floorlaugh:Yes I can imagine...
she had to know where he lives, I would go wherever, who ever I can reach out to.
.. I would not stop till I can find out - After a LAST call like the she describes.

But what if it was not exactly like that? Just a little different.
Then I can see how 3 weeks go by and she is just saying to herself
OH GOD he got grounded real bad.

No actually now a days she may not have known where he lived, their "romance" could have been totally "school based" and she would only know that he lived somewhere in the area that served that school. Also now a days most people do not have land line phones, it is very likely that Trayvon had his own cell phone with his own phone #, Sybrina has her own cell phone with her own separate phone # and his brother has his own cell phone with his own #. She may have only ever known Trayvon's # and you can't call the operator to get cell phone #'s and without paying a service you can't even go online and look up those #'s.

 

[LynnM]

BBM :floorlaugh:Yes I can imagine...
she had to know where he lives, I would go wherever, who ever I can reach out to.
.. I would not stop till I can find out - After a LAST call like the she describes.

But what if it was not exactly like that? Just a little different.
Then I can see how 3 weeks go by and she is just saying to herself
OH GOD he got grounded real bad.

But that is not what happened. She went to his wake, collapsed, was hospitalized, and couldn't attend his funeral.

 

[songline]

She DID do things, including call LE. Please don't make it sound like she heard someone get shot and sat at home doing nothing. She is a 15 year old little girl who just lost her boyfriend. From reports, she had to seek medical treatment from this situation. She is a victim, as well.

She sure is.
there is still 3 weeks before a report.
IMO a lot can happen in 3 weeks.
I am not decided yet if everything her report
was or was not influenced, tipped.

 

[Karmady]

No he would not be able to use SYG if it goes to trial, if a judge finds against his claim of SYG then he can try to use self defense at trial but a judge before hand makes the determination if SYG can be used.

respectfully, mercuriod, I believe that is incorrect.

 

[legalmania]

jjenny, I had to remove the blog link but please read my 2nd post above.

You are missing a very, very important part here. The evidentiary hearing is everything to GZ. If the judge finds during the evidentiary hearing that GZ met the burden of proof in that hearing, there will be no trial. Game over.

All I know to tell you for sure is that it is an affirmative defense. The rules are different.

I'm done trying to explain it. Maybe gitana or AZ can help clarify better than I have been able to.

For those of you who are interested here is the legal definition of evidentiary hearing which is synonymous with preliminary hearing

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Evidentiary+hearing

I don't like using Wikipedia but in this case did to explain the similarity between evidentiary and preliminary. BBM

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preliminary_hearing"]Preliminary hearing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

 

[songline]

But that is not what happened. She went to his wake, collapsed, was hospitalized, and couldn't attend his funeral.

That is true.
I am not suggesting she did not love her boy friend.
I am suggesting that maybe she was not that worried.
that means that maybe that report was influenced.