17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #31

[Chris_Texas]

Do you think TM would have been justified in killing GZ for following him ?

For following him only? No.

In general lethal force is only justified when the preservation of life indicates that there is no other option but to immediately STOP the other person from doing whatever it is that they are doing. Trayvon, given the situation, might very well have been justified in attacking him however.

 

[CathyinTexas]

I disagree. This is going to trial whatever the SYG law might say. Or, I should say, it better go to trial or there is the potential for some real violence. It seems to me that a whole lot of folks -- particularly on the right -- are taking a perverse pleasure in defending both Zimmerman and this rather insane law, and going beyond that to outright provocation of people who have been remarkably patient thus far.

But you can only push so far. In this case, the black community has not only suffered through the death of a child and the police indifference that followed, but they have quietly tolerated a non-stop stream of attacks on the victim, attacks on the victim's family, and even outright racist hate posted on mainstream news websites and even the statements of public figures.

This case needs to go to trial. But that's only the beginning.

The people deserve and need real and complete answers as to what exactly happened within the law enforcement community. This nonsense needs to stop, the people responsible need to be in jail, and laws like this one (which, in my opinion, is good in theory) need serious clarification. As it stands, it might as well be called the "leave no living witnesses" law.

MOO etc

I have doubts that the prosecution will point fingers or blame at the police, but that is just my opinion. I do agree with others that is where some fault lies because they too quickly, without a proper investigation believed GZ. jmo

 

[BiancaS]

Unless a person has a crystal ball or a person is psychic, there is absolutely no way anyone can know that for sure. I thought surely Casey would be convicted, and look what happened in that case. We won't know anything until we go to trial and the hear the verdict. It's inflammatory to insist on outcome when the trial hasn't even started yet. I may want him convicted, and hope for it, but I cannot insist that is going to happen because there's no way to know that for sure. And after Casey's case, I learned the hard way than anything is possible.

In fact, we have not even seen the EVIDENCE yet, just bits and pieces. Until MOM requests Discovery (and provides same to the prosecution), we will not get the information that made AC file for 2nd degree murder. I suspect we are in for some surprises.

And, it seems like some here have forgotten that this case was completely DEAD, considered closed by the SPD. If not for the attorneys representing the parents of Trayvon going to the media and getting attention for the injustice, there was never any intent to investigate further or file charges. Trayvon's parents have been the driving force that made this happen. Sybrina Fulton was NOT going to let her son die in vain and I pray she finds the peace she deserves. MOO.

 

[Sensei]

I've played the scenario over and over in my head plugging different ages, races, sexes. Even with two people exactly the same age, sex and race it is a person creating a conflict where there was none. The law seems to give someone the right to hunt another human being. There appears to be no standing of ground unless it was Trayvon standing his. I'm not against guns. It is a right guaranteed by the constitution but I am for common sense. Excellent post Sensei.

I agree, I am not about changing the Constitution, and for those who are gun enthusiasts more power to them. I am offended by a law that would allow someone to terrorize another person to the point of a violent reaction and then kill them and claim unavoidable self defense. What we have here so far as we know without further evidence is that Trayvon attempted to get away, even GZ claims he RAN...and GZ was STILL out of his vehicle and NOT in position to have secured an address, or whatever story he wants to tell today...He could have been back in his car in 18 seconds but he was not, he was still following Trayvon and now Trayvon is dead and he is claiming self defense...If he was attacked, he provoked attack by scaring someone for his own personal reasons...His conclusions were not logical nor reasonable and suspicion is not a reason that someone should be killed. IMO JMHO and stuff.

 

[CathyinTexas]

He made the decision to follow a frightened kid around, in the dark, in the rain, when the kid had already run away at least once, and after police asked him to stop. The end result was a murdered innocent child, a life snuffed out. Forever.

Of COURSE he should spend the rest of his life in prison.

MOO, etc

If I were to give GZ the benefit of the doubt, and Trayvon did get violent, and did put GZ in fear of his life, I still want him to spend time in prison for the crime of killing TM. I want that because he instigated the whole thing and I believe Trayvon was standing his ground. At this time I do not believe Trayvon became so violent that GZ feared for his life. moo

 

[Chris_Texas]

So even if GZ acted within the law, you believe it has to go to trial just to appease the public?If there was a problem with law enforcement not doing their job correctly ,then it will come out and be dealt with.But IMO to say GZ even if covered under the SYG law needs to go to trial JMO is not what should happen under the law he should never have been arrested but due to outside groups and pressure he was.This is a very slippery slop for all of us IMO if the law can be disregarded just so there is no violence is blackmail to me.

Yes. Nor is it much of a slippery slope. Millions of people are demanding justice for this dead child, with justice in this being a trial. The reason is transparency. Millions of very reasonable people (including the state prosecutor) believe that this SYG law, as written, does not apply in this case. They believe that the police acted at best unprofessionally, and perhaps more likely, as co-conspirators to the murder of a black kid.

Millions want real answers. It's well past time they got those answers.

And so we are clear, lots and lots of people stand trial and are judged by theor peers to have acted within the law. Why should this case be any different? No one tried to argue that we shouldn't prosecute Casey Anthony because she might be judged not-guilty. That would be silly there, and equally silly here.

 

[Chris_Texas]

No. In Sanford, the Mayor cuts ribbons and has a vote on the city commission.

It was The City Manager, Norton Bonaparte, Jr. who encouraged the Police to disclose the calls and not sure what else. Bonaparte was acting in the interests of being transparent. He had lost his last job in Topeka (I think) when there was a percieved lack of transparency, thus he didn't want to see that repeated. And, normally, it might not matter that the materials were released to the public. But, obviously, this case is out of the ordinary.

I think his heart was in the right place, he just might not have realized at the time just how deceptive the Police were being with their report. (That's my opinion.}

I would like to think that he was well aware and was pushing the release to blow the lid off things. I suspect that there are quite a few folks there, including LE, who are disgusted by this entire debacle.

 

[grandmaj]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap...Z9SyCw?docId=bc92cf41d8764b66adfafa2f9c5aabd3

A little reading for you.

 

[Chris_Texas]

One of the really ironic things about this case (MOO) is that SYG laws were actually written to protect Trayvon. Prior to this law Trayvon would have been required to retreat all the way to his home prior to defending himself.

The SYG law says he does not need to retreat at all as a prerequisite to self defense.

Anyway, I need my beauty sleep. Goodnight websleuths! :seeya:

 

[Ambrosia]

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=21773&stc=1&d=1335243875

 

[curl_in_progress]

I've said it a few times but IMO, TM was approached, possibly grabbed, touched, or shoved up against the outside wall in the space between one of the homes. IMO, the elbow of the sleeve of Trayvon's hooded sweatshirt should be tested for GZ's DNA. It is my belief that GZ laid hands on TM and Trayvon did the natural next thing and elbowed GZ causing him to loose his balance and fall backwards. Infuriated GZ probably did what he has done so many times before...he went after Trayvon and this time he happened to be armed with a 9MM semi-automatic loaded with hollow point bullets.

Witnesses say that they heard voices and then the yelling which moved toward where TM was ultimately shot.

This makes sense to me. Maybe Trayvon's elbow hit GZ in the nose before he fell backwards and he hit his head on some unknown object. That would account for all of GZ's injuries and why Trayvon had no bruises or cuts on his hands. Once GZ got up, he drew his weapon, went after Trayvon and wrestled him to the ground and the screaming ensues. I still believe Trayvon broke free from GZ for a moment when we hear the pause in the screaming on the 911 call with the gunshot and GZ went after him AGAIN and that's when the calls for help begin. And then GZ shot Trayvon out of pure rage.

MOO

 

[sherryk]

JMO... I do not know all the facts and evidence from any possible witnesses that can be accurate, forensics, just facts that are unknown at this time.

I do believe in innocent until proven quilty. The charge is a bondable offence, perhaps overcharged in this case to please the public of for good reason.. we or I do not know.

Two sides to every story especially based on opinions and rumors .. and then somewhree inbetween the truth.. I am going to follow the case and look at facts as they come out.

There seems to be some that wanted only the justice system to play their part, now that the accused has envokes his rights through the court system is it still not good enough for some.. I read or heard a comment on tv... where did he get the bond with family limited means... let me tell you if i was in jail.. my family would pawn, ask exteneded family, cash in life insurance, burial plots, and most DEFFINALTY take donations... so the money for bond does not matter where it came from.. he posted bond and that is that.. how dare those who will never be happy with the justice system make issue of how he posted bond.. does it matter.. he posted it as most people with family who cared would used every and all avenues to raise funds.

I simply want those on both sides to look at the justice system and not to try and make different rules on Zimmerman based on emotions or a witch hunt..

It is a misfourtune and possible a proven crime.. but we know vert little about what happened.. we where not there.. and the little bits of information on NON EMERGENCY police call... we can only speculate on the time and context of all that was said... we were not there.. not one single one of us.

I just want a fair trial.. not to put an innocent man in prison, however I do support putting a quilty verdict person in jail..

just my opinion.. just want people to look at this from a LEGAL standpoint.. however freedom of speech and expession of feelings for support or non support of Zimmerman are heartfelt and we are entitiled to that vs countries who do not have that right.

Not meant offend anyone.. not at all... i want justice as much as anyone else.

God Bless the Martin Family for the loss of their child, God Bless the Zimmerman family for threts and a possible sentence that and situation that possibly will destroy that family also.. God Bless the potesters and hate, God Bless all of us in America.

I am scared to post this due to probally a thread with much opinion againt Zimmerman. Please respect my opinion as I do respect anyone on this forum.. due to the fact that anyone on this forum CARES enough to post their opinion or theory.

Thank you if you read this and understand just the legal side and emotions on both sides...

 

[CathyinTexas]

I've said it a few times but IMO, TM was approached, possibly grabbed, touched, or shoved up against the outside wall in the space between one of the homes. IMO, the elbow of the sleeve of Trayvon's hooded sweatshirt should be tested for GZ's DNA. It is my belief that GZ laid hands on TM and Trayvon did the natural next thing and elbowed GZ causing him to loose his balance and fall backwards. Infuriated GZ probably did what he has done so many times before...he went after Trayvon and this time he happened to be armed with a 9MM semi-automatic loaded with hollow point bullets.

Witnesses say that they heard voices and then the yelling which moved toward where TM was ultimately shot.

One of the ear witnesses said they heard voices but one authoritative voice that was distinguishable. That must have been GZ. So that should prove he was illegally detaining Trayvon and must have, at some point, pulled his gun, and that is when Trayvon may have started screaming in terror. I hope that witness will be pivotal, because how could GZ go from authoritative voice to a young voice screaming in terror? I hope that made sense. jmo

 

[jjenny]

Authoritative voice? What does it even mean? Who says GZ had an authoritative voice?

 

[lauriej]

No. In Sanford, the Mayor cuts ribbons and has a vote on the city commission.

It was The City Manager, Norton Bonaparte, Jr. who encouraged the Police to disclose the calls and not sure what else. Bonaparte was acting in the interests of being transparent. He had lost his last job in Topeka (I think) when there was a percieved lack of transparency, thus he didn't want to see that repeated. And, normally, it might not matter that the materials were released to the public. But, obviously, this case is out of the ordinary.

I think his heart was in the right place, he just might not have realized at the time just how deceptive the Police were being with their report. (That's my opinion.}

--it was the mayor, jeff triplett.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2...yor-says-police-resisted-release-of-911-tapes
Trayvon Martin case: Mayor says police resisted release of 911 tapes

The mayor of the city where Trayvon Martin was killed says he overruled police and prosecutors who opposed the release of tapes of 911 calls, telling them: “We're not here to hide anything.”

Jeff Triplett, who is a senior vice president at United Legacy Bank and part-time mayor of Sanford, said he took the decision after Martin’s family asked for the release of recordings of a call that shooter George Zimmerman made to police and 911 calls from neighbors who heard the confrontation.

Police, prosecutors and the city attorney opposed releasing the calls because of the ongoing investigation, Triplett told Reuters.

“Everyone was saying to me, no, no, no, don't turn them over," he said. "I just continually asked, 'Why wouldn't we do this?'"

"I made that call to try to settle everything down a little bit, to let the family hear what transpired. We were being accused of a lot of things, or the police department was, so we can take the step to say, 'We're not here to hide anything,'" Triplett added.

 

[Ambrosia]

Zimmerman was at the end of his call. And when he quietly says: "yeah, you got it" to the dispatch, he is in position where he can see and hear Martin. Yet cannot be seen by Martin. Martin has ended his short run and is on phone with GF talking about the guy watching him. He did not notice that Zimmerman had left his vehicle to go to the CUT-THROUGH (where he now is, as he quietly says: "yeah, you got it"). Because this happened when Zimmerman said "HE'S RUNNING" and Martin was looking forward with his back to Zimm'S truck. Martin stops, he is on phone with GF. But most of all and to Zimmerman's advantage, he is now looking back at the truck, (perhaps with it's lights still on and facing him) telling GF "HE'S just WATCHING me". In the present tense he thinks he knows where Zimmerman is. He was wrong. where I think Zimmerman was at this point? Watching from that screen porch in the background at the cut through. Sh** no! (door locked?) Tap tap tap. (not anymore.) Enters. (out of site - watching and listening) Last words quietly "Yeah, you got it" (he hangs up) DISCLAIMER: The above is my OPINION only.

 

[CathyinTexas]

Authoritative voice? What does it even mean? Who says GZ had an authoritative voice?

The witness who said he heard the "arguing". He couldn't make out what they said but one had an authoritative tone.

 

[Tugela]

If I were to give GZ the benefit of the doubt, and Trayvon did get violent, and did put GZ in fear of his life, I still want him to spend time in prison for the crime of killing TM. I want that because he instigated the whole thing and I believe Trayvon was standing his ground. At this time I do not believe Trayvon became so violent that GZ feared for his life. moo

That is not what the law is about though. You can confront anyone you feel like, that does not entitle them to attack you. As long as you are not threatening them directly.

If the scenario unfolded as GZ confronting TM, and then TM attacking him, CZ would have every right to use lethal force to defend himself according to the law. He was not required to back off or run away in that scenario.

I think what is confusing people is that a provocative act is not the same as an agressive act. According to the evidence we have so far GZ was behaving in a provocative manner, but not in an aggressive manner. What appears to have happened is that TM responded to the provocation with aggression, which is what led to him being dead.

But, in that scenario GZ would not have done anything wrong according to Florida law. Now, is the stand your ground law a wise law? That is a different question. IMO it is a foolish law, the use of deadly force should allways be subject to judical examination no matter what the circumstances. If someone really is defending themselves legitimately then it should be clear.

Based on the evidence we know so far, I would say that the prosecutor is responding to public sentiment rather than the facts of the case. Probably what will happen is that eventually the charges will be dismissed, but by dragging GZ through this process the prosecutor is trying to make a statement.

I think the moral of this story is that no matter how provocative someone may be, you should not attack them. Especially in a state like Florida, because once you do that you open the door for just about anything.

 

[chefmom]

JMO... I do not know all the facts and evidence from any possible witnesses that can be accurate, forensics, just facts that are unknown at this time.

I do believe in innocent until proven quilty. The charge is a bondable offence, perhaps overcharged in this case to please the public of for good reason.. we or I do not know.

Two sides to every story especially based on opinions and rumors .. and then somewhree inbetween the truth.. I am going to follow the case and look at facts as they come out.

There seems to be some that wanted only the justice system to play their part, now that the accused has envokes his rights through the court system is it still not good enough for some.. I read or heard a comment on tv... where did he get the bond with family limited means... let me tell you if i was in jail.. my family would pawn, ask exteneded family, cash in life insurance, burial plots, and most DEFFINALTY take donations... so the money for bond does not matter where it came from.. he posted bond and that is that.. how dare those who will never be happy with the justice system make issue of how he posted bond.. does it matter.. he posted it as most people with family who cared would used every and all avenues to raise funds.

I simply want those on both sides to look at the justice system and not to try and make different rules on Zimmerman based on emotions or a witch hunt..

It is a misfourtune and possible a proven crime.. but we know vert little about what happened.. we where not there.. and the little bits of information on NON EMERGENCY police call... we can only speculate on the time and context of all that was said... we were not there.. not one single one of us.

I just want a fair trial.. not to put an innocent man in prison, however I do support putting a quilty verdict person in jail..

just my opinion.. just want people to look at this from a LEGAL standpoint.. however freedom of speech and expession of feelings for support or non support of Zimmerman are heartfelt and we are entitiled to that vs countries who do not have that right.

Not meant offend anyone.. not at all... i want justice as much as anyone else.

God Bless the Martin Family for the loss of their child, God Bless the Zimmerman family for threts and a possible sentence that and situation that possibly will destroy that family also.. God Bless the potesters and hate, God Bless all of us in America.

I am scared to post this due to probally a thread with much opinion againt Zimmerman. Please respect my opinion as I do respect anyone on this forum.. due to the fact that anyone on this forum CARES enough to post their opinion or theory.

Thank you if you read this and understand just the legal side and emotions on both sides...

Please don't ever be afraid to post here, sherryk! Though we all have our own opinions, it is the sharing, comparing, and dissecting of those opinions that hopefully leads us to learn what happened in any given case. Though you may see some back and forth, a little bickering, and some complete and total differences of opinion, we actually are all quite friendly here, no matter which side of the fence we are sitting on. For me, I respect all posters and opinions, whether they are similiar to mine or not. :blushing:

 

[Reader]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap...Z9SyCw?docId=bc92cf41d8764b66adfafa2f9c5aabd3

A little reading for you.

From this link an answer to one question:

O'Mara said on CNN's Anderson Cooper 360 that his client is not under police protection and that his family is paying for the security measures.

"He's sort of on his own with his own protection at this point," O'Mara said.