17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #31

[Elley Mae]

"Chief Lee is paying for the sins of past police officers and police chiefs," said Commissioner Patty Mahany. "He has been here in office 10 months. How do you steer a boat that big, Mr. Mayor? How do you steer a boat in 10 moths to a complete turnaround? You don't."
http://cfnews13.com/content/news/cf...icles/cfn/2012/4/23/sanford_police_chief.html

 

[Elley Mae]

His attorney said he still hasn't decided if he will use the "Stand Your Ground" law to justify the killing.

http://www.wftv.com/news/news/sanford-police-chief-will-resign/nMf7R/

O'Mara also said Zimmerman is not using social media or any other form of the internet to communicate with people.

He said a site Zimmerman set up a few weeks ago, called [link removed] will not be maintained by his client, and new sites where people claim to be Zimmerman are fakes

 

[CathyinTexas]

I wonder what kind of tattoos GZ has.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...new-life-jail-revealed-spends-night-bars.html

>A separate booking report detailed his tattoos - the tragedy and drama theatre masks on his left arm and a cross on his chest that says 'Christine'

 

[LambChop]

When I was a teen, I was walking back home from the store about a half mile away when a strange man started following me in a car, slowly. It scared me and I started to run. He parked his car on the side of the road and got out and ran after me. I knew I couldn't get home in time but fortunately I was able to run to an acquaintance's house and he ran back to his car and took off. I suppose the man had broken no laws, but no one will ever convince me he wasn't about to. If he'd overtaken me, would it have been okay for me to kick him in the groin, or would I have to have waited until he hurt me to do that? If I had kicked him, should he have shot me dead?

So many people want to see this from Zimmerman's perspective -Trayvon looked suspicious, he was unknown, he ran, there had been 'a lot' of burglaries. I look at it from Trayvon's perspective. Here's a man watching him then running after him. He's not in a police uniform, he doesn't show a badge, he doesn't have a security uniform on, he isn't in a marked security vehicle, he doesn't identify himself as a neighborhood watch volunteer. What else can he be but a bad guy?

And I believe that is why the investigators used the word "profiling" because that is what GZ did. He targeted TM in his description to LE that this person was a criminal about to or had already been involved in some type of crime. Getting out and following him was not an innocent act on GZ's behalf. He was actually trying to detain this person to keep them from getting away. That is certainly different than just following someone. GZ's intent was to stop/detain this person which he cannot legally do because he had no authority. GZ was not just innocently following him. His plan was to keep TM from getting away. This was GZ's objective or he never would have left his car. All GZ was required to do was to call it in and he would have fulfilled his obligation under the NWP. jmo

 

[HiHater]

That is not what the law is about though. You can confront anyone you feel like, that does not entitle them to attack you. As long as you are not threatening them directly.

If the scenario unfolded as GZ confronting TM, and then TM attacking him, CZ would have every right to use lethal force to defend himself according to the law. He was not required to back off or run away in that scenario.

I think what is confusing people is that a provocative act is not the same as an agressive act. According to the evidence we have so far GZ was behaving in a provocative manner, but not in an aggressive manner. What appears to have happened is that TM responded to the provocation with aggression, which is what led to him being dead.

But, in that scenario GZ would not have done anything wrong according to Florida law. Now, is the stand your ground law a wise law? That is a different question. IMO it is a foolish law, the use of deadly force should allways be subject to judical examination no matter what the circumstances. If someone really is defending themselves legitimately then it should be clear.

Based on the evidence we know so far, I would say that the prosecutor is responding to public sentiment rather than the facts of the case. Probably what will happen is that eventually the charges will be dismissed, but by dragging GZ through this process the prosecutor is trying to make a statement.

I think the moral of this story is that no matter how provocative someone may be, you should not attack them. Especially in a state like Florida, because once you do that you open the door for just about anything.

That is just not true. Provocation can be aggressive. If someone "confronts" you in a manner that causes you to fear he or she is going to do bodily harm, you have every right to preempt them.

What happened to the people who were saying "how long does GZ have to be beaten before he fears for his life" well, how long did Trayvon have to be followed or chased before he turned the tables?

This case is being prosecuted because people have the right to walk down the street without being accosted, chased, and followed by a paranoid freak with a gun...

JMO MOO IMO

 

[LambChop]

This is where I think it is a confusing thing. Once you or I see "someone" that grabs our attention to watch them because we feel they are doing something wrong to the point of calling authorities and then seeing they are a teen do you just stop. ? Do you just call off to call? idk

You call it in. That's the end of what you are required to do. It now becomes the job of LE. jmo

 

[LambChop]

Okay, I'll go with it's okay to follow to make sure a child isn't being abducted. But they shouldn't be pulling out a gun when they do it.

I think there is a big difference between knowing a crime has been committed compared to suspecting someone when you have no proof. Big difference. You also can't tell LE I think someone may have stolen something you must pat this person down to make sure they did not steal anything. You have to have some proof, such as you saw them take it, etc. jmo

 

[LynnM]

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/news/local/charges-dropped-against-couple-arrested-after-tryi/nMgQq/ - "Neighborhood watchmen charged in arrest mixup."

After someone posted it here, I've been following the case of the couple who were arrested changing the locks on the home they had just purchased. Neighbors thought they were breaking in and held them at gunpoint until the police arrived. The police did not believe the couple and even after taking them into custody, locked them up over night without calling the couple's son who had the settlement papers, as the couple had requested.

At the scene the police praised the neighbors, now the neighbors have been arrested for false imprisonment, aggravated assault and criminal trespass.

So what determines outcome when a neighborhood watchman detains a suspected criminal? Is it okay if he turns out to be right but illegal detention if he's wrong? The police thought it was okay when they thought a crime had been committed - were they right or does the prosecutor's office think it's wrong either way. Georgia is a stand your ground state.

Did GZ attempt to detain Trayvon?

 

[CathyinTexas]

And I cannot stop thinking if only he'd prefaced his question with "I'm with the Neighborhood Watch.....", we probably wouldn't be here.

I wonder what GZ's response was to the question - Did you identify yourself?

LinasK - Have you ever been in a position where you identified yourself with your Neighborhood Watch? TIA.

The term state of mind has been mentioned in discussion and will play an important role in the prosecution's case. It seemed that GZ's state of mind wasn't I should let him know who I am and find out what he is doing here. It was more like, I'm tired of these a...holes and punks getting away. So that would put him in a determined, and maybe aggressive state of mind, imoo.

 

[Concerned Papa]

"Chief Lee is paying for the sins of past police officers and police chiefs," said Commissioner Patty Mahany. "He has been here in office 10 months. How do you steer a boat that big, Mr. Mayor? How do you steer a boat in 10 moths to a complete turnaround? You don't."
http://cfnews13.com/content/news/cf...icles/cfn/2012/4/23/sanford_police_chief.html

Thanks for this link, Elley.

A big boat? Really? In a town of only 53,000? With only 140 police officers?

Wonder what she calls a "boat" that's a town of over 8 million? With over 34,500 police officers?

"How do you steer a boat in 10 months to a complete turnaround?" Simple, Commissioner Patty, you fire 140 employees if they're not doing their jobs and hire 140 new ones.

A "big boat" probably does that much every month. Ask New York City, NY.

 

[HiHater]

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/news/local/charges-dropped-against-couple-arrested-after-tryi/nMgQq/ - "Neighborhood watchmen charged in arrest mixup."

After someone posted it here, I've been following the case of the couple who were arrested changing the locks on the home they had just purchased. Neighbors thought they were breaking in and held them at gunpoint until the police arrived. The police did not believe the couple and even after taking them into custody, locked them up over night without calling the couple's son who had the settlement papers, as the couple had requested.

At the scene the police praised the neighbors, now the neighbors have been arrested for false imprisonment, aggravated assault and criminal trespass.

So what determines outcome when a neighborhood watchman detains a suspected criminal? Is it okay if he turns out to be right but illegal detention if he's wrong? The police thought it was okay when they thought a crime had been committed - were they right or does the prosecutor's office think it's wrong either way. Georgia is a stand your ground state.

Did GZ attempt to detain Trayvon?

BBM

IMO, yes. There's no doubt in my mind about it...

 

[CathyinTexas]

If I see someone breaking into the neighbors house, yes, I continue watching and call the law...but in this instance what George Zimmerman saw was a young man walking. Even HE didn't claim that he saw Trayvon looking into cars, or trying the doors, or looking into windows...he may have felt this kid was suspicious and up to no good, but he did not have a single thing to base that on except a gut feeling and the fact that he didn't recognize him. The fact that MOST people don't arbitrarily follow people that they feel might be suspicious is an excellent indication that what he was doing was not a rational thing for anyone to do.

That is right, the investigator in the bond hearing testimony said that GZ called in a suspicious person with NO FACTS.

 

[Elley Mae]

Thanks for this link, Elley.

A big boat? Really? In a town of only 53,000? With only 140 police officers?

Wonder what she calls a "boat" that's a town of over 8 million? With over 34,500 police officers?

"How do you steer a boat in 10 months to a complete turnaround?" Simple, Commissioner Patty, you fire 140 employees if they're not doing their jobs and hire 140 new ones.

A "big boat" probably does that much every month. Ask New York City, NY.

I believe the point was/is that sanford has had problems way longer then this past chief who had been in office for 10 months.
http://mysanfordherald.com/view/full_story/12863351/article-Sanford-names-Lee-as-new-police-chief
To facilitate the hiring process, the city hired The Waters Consulting Group of Dallas to conduct a nationwide search and narrow down the candidates. The final interview process included a panel of Sanford residents appointed by the city commission and a panel of outside law enforcement experts.

looks like they did a thorough job. jmo

 

[cityslick]

BBM

IMO, yes. There's no doubt in my mind about it...

Could you expand on your opinion on how you think he tried to do this? Do you believe that he pulled his gun out and told TM to stay put, TM said no and the fight ensued? Thanks.

 

[Sensei]

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/news/local/charges-dropped-against-couple-arrested-after-tryi/nMgQq/ - "Neighborhood watchmen charged in arrest mixup."

After someone posted it here, I've been following the case of the couple who were arrested changing the locks on the home they had just purchased. Neighbors thought they were breaking in and held them at gunpoint until the police arrived. The police did not believe the couple and even after taking them into custody, locked them up over night without calling the couple's son who had the settlement papers, as the couple had requested.

At the scene the police praised the neighbors, now the neighbors have been arrested for false imprisonment, aggravated assault and criminal trespass.

So what determines outcome when a neighborhood watchman detains a suspected criminal? Is it okay if he turns out to be right but illegal detention if he's wrong? The police thought it was okay when they thought a crime had been committed - were they right or does the prosecutor's office think it's wrong either way. Georgia is a stand your ground state.

Did GZ attempt to detain Trayvon?

Even if they KNOW a crime has been committed...neighborhood watch does NOT have Police powers to detain anyone the guideline clearly state that Neighborhood watch is not a vigilante force, nor are they an arm of legal law enforcement. They should NOT be armed, and their entire mandate is to WATCH and report to LE any suspicious activity. They don't patrol, there is a group, I dont remember the name, who get specialized training and do patrol in specially marked cars armed with nothing more lethal than a radio...and they wear special vests that identify them as a neighborhood patrol and this group is organized and set up by LE, but the neighborhood watch that GZ claims to be captain of was not even registered.

 

[Gin]

That is right, the investigator in the bond hearing testimony said that GZ called in a suspicious person with NO FACTS.

JMO/IMO

GZ called in a suspicious person. The question is, what was it about Trayvon that made the armed volunteer patrolman suspicious?

Iced tea? Skittles? No, I think we can agree that would be absurd.

Hooded sweatshirt? Travon's race? Bingo....and here's where GZ paints himself into a corner with profiling.

 

[ScubaTwinn]

"Chief Lee is paying for the sins of past police officers and police chiefs," said Commissioner Patty Mahany. "He has been here in office 10 months. How do you steer a boat that big, Mr. Mayor? How do you steer a boat in 10 moths to a complete turnaround? You don't."
http://cfnews13.com/content/news/cf...icles/cfn/2012/4/23/sanford_police_chief.html

Is she saying he wasn't in control of his office that night when they failed to drug or blood test GZ? He wasn't in control when one of his officers touched something on GZ without gloves and wiped it on himself? He wasn't in control of his officers that questioned witnesses? Even though he had been in office "only" 10 months, why wouldn't proper procedures be followed as soon as he stepped into that position if the intent was for him to clean up the Department?

 

[Dr.Fessel]

Thanks for this link, Elley.

A big boat? Really? In a town of only 53,000? With only 140 police officers?

Wonder what she calls a "boat" that's a town of over 8 million? With over 34,500 police officers?

"How do you steer a boat in 10 months to a complete turnaround?" Simple, Commissioner Patty, you fire 140 employees if they're not doing their jobs and hire 140 new ones.

A "big boat" probably does that much every month. Ask New York City, NY.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooPBXfnIpYI"]Pace Picante Commercial (1994) - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Dr.Fessel]

This is where I think it is a confusing thing. Once you or I see "someone" that grabs our attention to watch them because we feel they are doing something wrong to the point of calling authorities and then seeing they are a teen do you just stop. ? Do you just call off to call? idk

No, if someone was kidnapping a child under this law you can shoot them in the back period.

 

[cityslick]

Is she saying he wasn't in control of his office that night when they failed to drug or blood test GZ? He wasn't in control when one of his officers touched something on GZ without gloves and wiped it on himself? He wasn't in control of his officers that questioned witnesses? Even though he had been in office "only" 10 months, why wouldn't proper procedures be followed as soon as he stepped into that position if the intent was for him to clean up the Department?

IMO I think what's going on is you have a number of folks in that town, high ranking folks, who truly do not believe that the police department did anything wrong that night. They are trying to divorce themselves from the incident (which to me is hilarious). They are also probably going to fall back on AC's own comments during the presser when she credited SPD, saying the investigation never stopped from day one.

And that is the problem with this case. Yes, you have someone that committed the act, GZ, and he will have his day in court, but the issue are far reaching beyond GZ. It reminds me a little (although there is no comparison of the cases) of the Penn State scandal. Yes, Sandusky is the one that committed the horrible acts, but the reach of the crime go so far beyond the perp, from Paterno on up.