17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #36

[Donjeta]

In his vehicle, observing the suspicious person walking, he estimated "late teens." A few minutes later, on foot, being suddenly confronted with a 6'3" hooded guy in the dark, who allegedly almost immediately began to attack him, I have no problem seeing how GZ's perception of TM's age could have very easily -- instantly -- changed. JMO

In any case, the rules of logic would not require one of GZ's two statements about how old he perceived TM to be as a lie. It is possible they are both true. JMO

IMO possible and likely, since GZ and O'M are both very much aware that the whole world has heard that dispatch call, in which GZ utters the words "late teens." I don't think they would be so stupid as to try and sneak in such a blatant discrepancy with everyone's eyes on that bond hearing. JMO

It doesn't matter imo, it's one of the safest discrepancies imo. It's not going to make or break the case. No one can get inside his head and prove what GZ thought so he can always claim that he thought ten different things in a rapid sequence and TM's age isn't significant legally here. It's not like there are situations in which it would have been OK to shoot a 24 year old but not a 17 year old if everything else is equal

 

[vlpate]

Also.. what made no sense to me, is that Tracy Martin got Tray's g/f to call juvenile justice, when that is where Brandy Greene works?? Why didn't he just call himself??

:moo::moo:

I'm guessing that they would not have given him any information and that is why BG called. I think it would have been Mr. Martin's hope that TM might have been picked up walking home instead of his worst fear, that he could be dead. Young black men get stopped all the time by LE. I don't think that is "bombshell breaking news" to anyone here. jmo

Interesting about Brandy Greene working there, I didn't know that, but it makes sense why she would call for him.

I don't think his worst fear was that he was dead, at least he didn't seem to be concerned about his safety the night before when he went to bed. I interpret the first two phone calls as a natural assumption given TM's background for getting into trouble. JMO

 

[mommakk51]

Thank you for the new website, tonight, I will be comparing it to the one I had. There seems to be some discrepancies between the 2 in how the apts are numbered.

:moo::moo:

IDK, you're using the Seminole Tax Collector's site and I'm using the Seminole Property Appraiser's site. Not sure why it doesn't come up at the Tax Collector's site, but got to this link:

http://scpaweb.scpafl.org/v3/

Click on Address....then enter TWIN TREES in the search window.....click Execute Search.....when the list comes up, go down to the 10th property owner down from the top.....click on that parcel and the plat and owner's info comes up.

I learned a long time ago the value of an appraiser's site in any county in FL. Tons of info is available. You can go from plat view to aerial view with a click if you choose.

Hope this helps.

 

[flourish]

Actually, being 16 would be MORE of a reason to call 911. You ever meet a 16 year old that didn't LIVE and LOVE to be in the middle or DRAMA?

I would suppose it would depend on one's personal definition of "drama." When I was a teenager, the drama I'd be interested in had more to do with what Jeffrey said to Michelle after the football game, and how Michelle told Susie that Lisa told Amanda that Iris told her that Jeffrey wants to kiss Michelle.

Real, actual, life and death drama isn't the kind of drama most teenagers are after, IMHO.

 

[deelytful1]

You are correct, they are under NO obligation to accept one. But by TAKING that stance, that they will NOT accept an apology, they negate their ability to then complain that he did not GIVE one. You CANNOT state, "We will not accpet an apology, but why didn't one come SOONER?" (FTR, not quoting them, quoting what their ACTIONS are saying.

As far as saying sorry for his actions, he did what HE though he had to do to survive, why would he be sorry for that? He is not accepting responsibility for the shooting, because his defense is SELF DEFENSE, and that makes him NOT responsible for the death.

It appears that the only apology some of you will accept is one in which he destroys his claim of self defense and claims he murdered TM intentionally.

Do you realize how much this statement contradicts itself.. yet how TRUE it is? LMAO...
Don't you think Trayvon's parents KNEW (at that point) that George Zimmerman was NOT sorry for killing their son? How was an apology appropriate then at that point? it was NOT. It was a self serving statement by a man trying to save his own a$$!
If he was truly sorry, he would have apologized immediately! He was not and he IS not sorry! IMO

 

[suzihawk]

Teenage drama... not parent and police drama.

Not murder of your boyfriend drama.

 

[deelytful1]

Crump was an eye witness?

:floorlaugh:

 

[zenreaper]

Now we hear he felt threatened while he was in the truck. But he got out and against LE directions, he followed. Does not appear he was that worried at the time. GZ should have listened. GZ should have used his better judgment. Obviously even though there was a threat, he felt one and admits it now he still ignored LE and followed TM.....why, why would he do that if he felt threatened. Because, he had a gun and he knew TM was just a teen and there was a good chance TM did not have a gun.

TM's ice tea was in the front pocket of his shirt. What if GZ tried to grab TM and saw the bulge and thought it was a gun and the fight started because GZ was afraid he was about to get shot? If only GZ had listened, TM would still be alive today. jmo

The "danger" he felt TM presented at first was to his neighbors. He did not feel danger to himself until TM attacked him, per GZ.

The second part I find interesting, mainly because some on here have used the idea that TM SAW GZ's gun, and thus was justified in attacking GZ to "defend" himself. So using the SAME standard, if GZ thought the can of tea was a gun, shouldn't he have the SAME expectations that TM was armed and dangerous?

 

[LambChop]

In his vehicle, observing the suspicious person walking, he estimated "late teens." A few minutes later, on foot, being suddenly confronted with a 6'3" hooded guy in the dark, who allegedly almost immediately began to attack him, I have no problem seeing how GZ's perception of TM's age could have very easily -- instantly -- changed. JMO

In any case, the rules of logic would not require one of GZ's two statements about how old he perceived TM to be as a lie. It is possible they are both true. JMO

IMO possible and likely, since GZ and O'M are both very much aware that the whole world has heard that dispatch call, in which GZ utters the words "late teens." I don't think they would be so stupid as to try and sneak in such a blatant discrepancy with everyone's eyes on that bond hearing. JMO

I don't think GZ is very good recognizing what is a discrepancy and what isn't. His answers were defensive which is to be expected. But the truth is so much easier to remember. jmo

 

[Desdemona]

IMO, if that's what the poster was saying, they would have said that.
Perhaps asking for clarification without presumption would be more effective.

My interpretation was that the girl was miles and miles away and may or may not have known the exact location of TM in order to TRY to give ANY helpful information. I don't know many teenagers who know which police departments cover which areas in their entire state.

What about less than 24 hours later, upon learning that he'd been shot? She surely knew where he was then, right? Why did it take three weeks for her boyfriend's dad (who did not even know who she was) to make the connection and contact her? Did she tell her mom/dad about the dropped phone call and the overheard altercation the night before? If so, why did they not come forward sooner? No matter how it's framed, IMO the fact that she reportedly became a witness so late in the game is in need of a reasonable explanation. JMO

/bbm

 

[vlpate]

Now we hear he felt threatened while he was in the truck. But he got out and against LE directions, he followed. Does not appear he was that worried at the time. GZ should have listened. GZ should have used his better judgment. Obviously even though there was a threat, he felt one and admits it now he still ignored LE and followed TM.....why, why would he do that if he felt threatened. Because, he had a gun and he knew TM was just a teen and there was a good chance TM did not have a gun.

TM's ice tea was in the front pocket of his shirt. What if GZ tried to grab TM and saw the bulge and thought it was a gun and the fight started because GZ was afraid he was about to get shot? If only GZ had listened, TM would still be alive today. jmo

By the same token, why didn't TM run after knocking GZ to the ground? Why did he continue the altercation?

 

[deelytful1]

In his vehicle, observing the suspicious person walking, he estimated "late teens." A few minutes later, on foot, being suddenly confronted with a 6'3" hooded guy in the dark, who allegedly almost immediately began to attack him, I have no problem seeing how GZ's perception of TM's age could have very easily -- instantly -- changed. JMO

In any case, the rules of logic would not require one of GZ's two statements about how old he perceived TM to be as a lie. It is possible they are both true. JMO

IMO possible and likely, since GZ and O'M are both very much aware that the whole world has heard that dispatch call, in which GZ utters the words "late teens." I don't think they would be so stupid as to try and sneak in such a blatant discrepancy with everyone's eyes on that bond hearing. JMO

But I thought trayvon was "circling his SUV" and being intimidating. When did THAT happen? Couldn't he have seen Trayvon then??

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...secutor-angela-corey-source-police-department <--- LINK to support what I'm saying

 

[highflyer]

But GZ TRIED to apologize sooner. They REJECTED the offer. You CANNOT reject an offer of an apology, then complain that the same offer DIDN'T COME SOON ENOUGH. You just can't do it.

i think the whole, "Sorry for your loss" was a very diplomatic compromise. He believed this kid was going to KILL him, how can we expect him to show SYMPATHY about STOPPING that?

It was insensitive, self serving and maddening. Nasty piece of work he is.

 

[flourish]

I find the more likely conclusion is that she did not hear anything that alarmed her.

Maybe she did and maybe she didn't. My point was it's, imo, ridiculous to assume that if she was alarmed, she'd know exactly who to contact, how, what to say, and where to direct them. Folks have been implying that she did not "do enough" or that she wasn't "timely enough" or whatever.

 

[suzihawk]

She didn't quite receive the subpoena - but a "source close to the situation" said one was being prepared. This article also states, probably the same "situation source", that the girl's parents called SPD, but they never interviewed her. And still, neither she, nor her mother, ever called the Martins.

"The 17-year-old was on the phone with his girlfriend as Zimmerman began to follow him, and because she is a minor, RadarOnline.com isn't disclosing her name. The Sanford Police Department never questioned Trayvon's girlfriend, even though her parents contacted the cops to tell them she wanted to come in for a sit down interview.

"Trayvon's girlfriend has been told that the Florida State Attorney's Office has prepared a subpoena for her to appear in front of the grand jury. She has hired a lawyer to advise her and make sure that her rights are protected. Her attorney has told prosecutors that she is ready to appear and is looking forward to telling the grand jury what really happened on February 26," a source close to the situation tells RadarOnline.com."

Is RadarOnline considered MSM? It's a tabloid, IMO.

They never have anything more substantial than 'a source close to the situation'.

 

[Desdemona]

I would hope they knew who she was, who TM's was dating. Surely.

Crump: "This was her really, really close personal friend. They were dating."

Crump also used the words "puppy love" IIRC. JMO

 

[Donjeta]

But GZ TRIED to apologize sooner. They REJECTED the offer. You CANNOT reject an offer of an apology, then complain that the same offer DIDN'T COME SOON ENOUGH. You just can't do it.

i think the whole, "Sorry for your loss" was a very diplomatic compromise. He believed this kid was going to KILL him, how can we expect him to show SYMPATHY about STOPPING that?

It's not true logically. If there is some date that would be "soon enough", there are dates after that which are "too late". If you attempt to apologize on a date that is "too late" I don't see any reason why one couldn't say it wasn't "soon enough".

GZ said he didn't try to contact the parents because he was told not to.

A person may not be sorry that he isn't dead but he may still be sorry that he had to shoot.

JMO but I think the whole apology thing wasn't really diplomatic and heartfelt as much as it was a strategic defense move.

One can't expect the victim's family to be overly excited to receive a strategic defense move to soften the shooter's image.

 

[LambChop]

The "danger" he felt TM presented at first was to his neighbors. He did not feel danger to himself until TM attacked him, per GZ.

The second part I find interesting, mainly because some on here have used the idea that TM SAW GZ's gun, and thus was justified in attacking GZ to "defend" himself. So using the SAME standard, if GZ thought the can of tea was a gun, shouldn't he have the SAME expectations that TM was armed and dangerous?

Which is the very reason LE directed him not to follow. It's not safe ever when you do not know what is going on with the other person. He called LE his duty was to wait. He decided his judgment was better than a dispatcher and we all see where that got him. If GZ approached TM thinking he had a gun, GZ would have already had his gun out. Imagine one person on top of another one with a gun, one with a metal can of ice tea, both hidden. What do you think GZ thought? Someone has to start it. It started when GZ called 911. It should have ended with GZ staying in his car and no one would have died. jmo

 

[LinasK]

What about less than 24 hours later, upon learning that he'd been shot? She surely knew where he was then, right? Why did it take three weeks for her boyfriend's dad (who did not even know who she was) to make the connection and contact her? Did she tell her mom/dad about the dropped phone call and the overheard altercation the night before? If so, why did they not come forward sooner? No matter how it's framed, IMO the fact that she reportedly became a witness so late in the game is in need of a reasonable explanation. JMO

/bbm

Yes, by the same token, George had weeks before he lawyered up with Mark O'Mara to sincerely apologize. Since he only apologized once MO'M started trying to rehab his image, I feel it was insincere...

It was insensitive, self serving and maddening. Nasty piece of work he is.

 

[Phoenixfla]

She said she tried to call him back. Her parents may have been out for the evening. He was suppose to be in a safe environment, a gated community. I doubt he told her his exact location other than he was in Sanford. I'm sure she was concerned but never expected he was dead. Obviously she ended up in the hospital when she heard she had talked with him right before he died. It's really not fair to speculate about what a 15/16 year old should have done when we are adults putting our expectations on her. Kids do not always think about dying, or someone dying and in particular someone their age dying. It's not the first thing they think will happened to someone. jmo

Are you positive about that? I'm pretty convinced she never went to the hospital.