17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #36

[Phoenixfla]

Maybe she did and maybe she didn't. My point was it's, imo, ridiculous to assume that if she was alarmed, she'd know exactly who to contact, how, what to say, and where to direct them. Folks have been implying that she did not "do enough" or that she wasn't "timely enough" or whatever.

I am not implying that she did not "do enough", I am implying that the contents of the conversation that Crump reports to us was not accurate. I'm implying that if she is called to the stand that she will be asked questions that may call into light that conversation.

 

[Just K]

bbm~

It makes absolute sense to me that George didn't want to shoot Trayvon until he had no choice. There is uncontroverted evidence of a physical altercation that lasted WAY longer than it would have if a person with a gun was jonesing to kill someone. There is eyewitness testimony that the dude in red, George, was on the bottom calling for help. And it is undisputed that the gunshot didn't happen before they were on the ground or even after a few seconds of a physical skirmish. Imo, it's entirely consistent with the evidence so far that George did NOT want to shoot this kid and let it go as far as he reasonably could before using deadly force. I'm open to being proven wrong about that, but, imo, it's far from a foregone conclusion.

He had a choice before he ever walked out of his front door, before he exited his vehicle, before he followed Trayvon and definitely before he cocked that semi automatic pistol (5lbs of pressure and all that.)

As to what GZ "wanted": There is evidence that suggests that he sought to detain him though and that is illegal.

 

[vlpate]

but...two different experts concluded it was NOT GZ and it WAS TM screaming for his life. He was also identified by his father and mother. So, yes, there IS evidence which you are free to ignore or disparage.

His father said it wasn't him and the two self-proclaimed experts, did not say it was TM. The investigator said, during the bond meeting, the FBI's report on the screams gave him no insight into who's voice it was.

So, since he still assumed TM is a criminal when TM resists he goes for his gun. When TM sees the gun he freaks out-that's likely when GZ slipped and fell and scratched his head or something.

Then TM takes off running, right? He's a football player and can make 70 yards in less than a minute!

Then GZ straddles him, IMO, frisking him to find his robbery loot and weapon, but alas, there isn't any evidence of crime and so then the spin begins. New story needed ASAP. Then it was Trayvon jumped him, bashed his head, tried to suffocate him...gee, all this for some guy TM had never seen before and despite TM having no history of fighting or violence or insanity.

Except GZ wasn't straddling TM, it was the other way around, there were eyewitnesses to this fact. We have no idea whether or not TM has a history of fighting or violence. I know a lot of guys who have been in fights, but have no record of it. None of the above matches what we know as fact at all.

GZ's injuries were, in the words of a fellow poster, less then what she gets from shaving her legs. He appeared unbloodied, unscathed and not even wrinkled or with his shirt out of his pants less then 25 minutes later. Not buying the injury story.

One word, wax!

Smoke and mirrors is all I see. What I know if that if GZ were legitimately just concerned about who TM was all he had to do was roll down his window and ask while he was on the phone with the dispatcher. Why wouldn't he do that? He's the adult, the neighborhood watchman. Trayvon is a teenager-ask him a question fgs. No, he'd rather follow him with a gun because that really makes the neighborhood so much safer.

It wasn't in his history to confront the people he'd reported, so this doesn't surprise me. It doesn't surprise me that he ceased to follow when he was told they didn't need him to do that. He's cooperated and he's done everything right and that has been asked of him since that night. But that is just my opinion. :moo:
.

 

[Karmady]

Well maybe it shouldn't.

Perhaps. But it does.

 

[Boytwnmom]

started it and/or WHEN it started. I think the evidence shows that GZ was determined to prevent this a%^hole from getting away. That is not a lawful action.

I think he probably grabbed TM's jacket or arm to stop him from getting away. Maybe TM did get the best of him at some point but I honestly highly doubt it as GZ simply had no appearance of being in any kind of a fight 20 minutes later. Plus, he was a bouncer and TM had likely never been in a fight-most kids haven't been but we know GZ wasn't beyond getting physically aggressive when it suited him regardless of whether it was an ATF officer or a woman so i doubt grabbing a kid would bother him much. I find it highly unlikely that TM did anything physical until GZ started it and I know he struggled once he saw the gun and no one will ever convince me that it wasn't Trayvon screaming for his life, stopping when his life ended. That was horrible and callous and cold blooded IMO. That was Trayvon screaming and that will put him away-that person screaming was not the attacker and was not doing anything BUT screaming. GZ never counted on a 911 call recording those screams-he thought he could just use it as part of his story, that HE was "calling for help"-that wasn't a call for help, that was a plea not to be shot.

bbm~

It makes absolute sense to me that George didn't want to shoot Trayvon until he had no choice. There is uncontroverted evidence of a physical altercation that lasted WAY longer than it would have if a person with a gun was jonesing to kill someone. There is eyewitness testimony that the dude in red, George, was on the bottom calling for help. And it is undisputed that the gunshot didn't happen before they were on the ground or even after a few seconds of a physical skirmish. Imo, it's entirely consistent with the evidence so far that George did NOT want to shoot this kid and let it go as far as he reasonably could before using deadly force. I'm open to being proven wrong about that, but, imo, it's far from a foregone conclusion.

 

[Phoenixfla]

Is George Zimmerman's wife pregnant?

What? Where did that come from? Link?

 

[Phoenixfla]

I think we would have heard that was a lie by now, don't you??? jmo

No, I don't, but I suspect we will. IMO

 

[deelytful1]

WE NEED A DOCUMENT DUMP!! Come on sunshine laws! Work your magic!

 

[Karmady]

started it and/or WHEN it started. I think the evidence shows that GZ was determined to prevent this a%^hole from getting away. That is not a lawful action.

I think he probably grabbed TM's jacket or arm to stop him from getting away. Maybe TM did get the best of him at some point but I honestly highly doubt it as GZ simply had no appearance of being in any kind of a fight 20 minutes later. Plus, he was a bouncer and TM had likely never been in a fight-most kids haven't been but we know GZ wasn't beyond getting physically aggressive when it suited him regardless of whether it was an ATF officer or a woman so i doubt grabbing a kid would bother him much. I find it highly unlikely that TM did anything physical until GZ started it and I know he struggled once he saw the gun and no one will ever convince me that it wasn't Trayvon screaming for his life, stopping when his life ended. That was horrible and callous and cold blooded IMO. That was Trayvon screaming and that will put him away-that person screaming was not the attacker and was not doing anything BUT screaming. GZ never counted on a 911 call recording those screams-he thought he could just use it as part of his story, that HE was "calling for help"-that wasn't a call for help, that was a plea not to be shot.

Depending on how he went about it, I disagree. And we don't know how he went about it. One thing we do know, though, is that there was a physical altercation that went on much longer than it would have if we were dealing with a person who just wanted to shoot someone. jmo

 

[Just K]

And GZ and his group of supporters didn't know, when they first told their story, that Trayvon was on the phone and someone heard the questions and the no ID from GZ before someone grabbed someone and TM's phone went dead. Trayvon was shot dead in under a minute so it seems like GZ didn't even consider fighting fair. From the sounds on his call to LE (NON-EMERGENCY DISPATCHER) it is very likely that he displayed the gun before Trayvon tried to defend himself.

 

[Aedrys]

Depending on how he went about it, I disagree. And we don't know how he went about it. One thing we do know, though, is that there was a physical altercation that went on much longer than it would have if we were dealing with a person who just wanted to shoot someone. jmo

And how long would a person who just wanted to shoot someone wait to shoot them? I don't think there's any hard and fast rule about that. Besides, GZ was all about controlling situations. He was trying to get control, and when that didn't work, he took the ultimate control and killed TM. It doesn't matter how long he decided to wait or not. He knew from the moment he saw TM that he was going to get control of this criminal alive or dead. Plus, I think he's far too smart to just walk up and shoot TM. He knew he would get into trouble for that.

 

[Just K]

Here's a scenario: What if George had TM at gunpoint, brandishing a firearm, Trayvon tried to push off of him and GZ slipped in the wet grass, grabbing onto TM with his free hand and as Trayvon was about to fight back GZ shot him-point blank.

That seems a very likely scenario, in my book. Taking Gz's word for anything might not be a wise bet, IMO.

 

[Karmady]

And how long would a person who just wanted to shoot someone wait to shoot them? I don't think there's any hard and fast rule about that. Besides, GZ was all about controlling situations. He was trying to get control, and when that didn't work, he took the ultimate control and killed TM. It doesn't matter how long he decided to wait or not. He knew from the moment he saw TM that he was going to get control of this criminal alive or dead. Plus, I think he's far too smart to just walk up and shoot TM. He knew he would get into trouble for that.

Imo, a person who just wanted to shoot someone wouldn't wait a heartbeat to do it. We see people like that all day everyday. George called the police. He spent several minutes on the phone and keeping an eye on the person he perceived as suspicious. He engaged in a relatively innocuous verbal exchange with that person, then spent another signficant amount of time engaged in a physical altercation with him, with eyewitnesses saying that George was on the bottom and calling for help. Plenty of opportunity to shoot the dude in cold blood, none of the opportunity taken. jmo

 

[Emeralgem]

George was a hefty adult male, he worked out and he was once a bouncer...so one would think he might have found a better way to resolve any physical altercation. He outweighed Trayvon, at that time, by at least 30 lbs. From the way GZ makes it sound Trayvon was friggin Superman...

This argument does not hold water with this Southern born citizen. If there even was an elbow or a fist thrown, it sounds like GZ should have fought back but not with a gun and hollow point bullets...that is just ovekill, IMO and all that.

BBM... We do know he was a bouncer and I do know bouncers are known for working out with weights but do we know he worked out to be a fact? Since the beginning I have wondered IF he worked out on a regular basis and was on steroids or perhaps had taken steroids in the past?JMHO

 

[suzihawk]

bbm~

It makes absolute sense to me that George didn't want to shoot Trayvon until he had no choice. There is uncontroverted evidence of a physical altercation that lasted WAY longer than it would have if a person with a gun was jonesing to kill someone. There is eyewitness testimony that the dude in red, George, was on the bottom calling for help. And it is undisputed that the gunshot didn't happen before they were on the ground or even after a few seconds of a physical skirmish. Imo, it's entirely consistent with the evidence so far that George did NOT want to shoot this kid and let it go as far as he reasonably could before using deadly force. I'm open to being proven wrong about that, but, imo, it's far from a foregone conclusion.

What if... I know, I know... but what if all that you speculate is true except that Zimmerman had caught up to Trayvon after following him and grabbed hold of him in order to detain him (because all those a$$holes get away) and scared the living crap out of him and Trayvon was struggling to get away from this stranger he didn't know from Adam. The more he struggled to get away, the tighter Zimmerman held on and it was on. Wrestling and the physical altercation escalated and... well, we pretty much agree what happened from there. In that case it would be Trayvon defending himself.

Personal note: I was mugged (strong arm robbed). I had my purse on my shoulder pretty close to my body and the guy was walking toward me. As he got close, there was an unmistakable look in his eye and in a split second I knew what he was going to do. He hooked his arm through the strap on my purse. By instinct I pulled my arms in toward my body in protection mode which automatically made me clutch my purse closer. He slung me around like a yo yo. I was holding on to that purse for dear life. Not because of the belongings but because my adrenalin was flowing to the max. The cops asked me later why I held on to that purse and didn't just give it up. It wasn't a conscious thought, I just did. Adrenalin.

The point of the personal story is I think once Zimmerman grabbed onto Trayvon and he tried to get away, George was holding on for dear life because 1) his adrenalin was maxing out and 2) he wasn't going to let this a$$hole get away.

 

[Nore]

WE NEED A DOCUMENT DUMP!! Come on sunshine laws! Work your magic!

----------
Not until after Defense has them.

 

[Boytwnmom]

and I have asked you repeatedly for the quotes where his father said it wasn't Trayvon-you keep repeating it without any evidence to back it up. As I've said before in regard to this unsubstantiated statement:

Link? I have posted quotes from the
father that directly refute this so please tell us where you get your information. I think it's horrible to lie about what this father said about his son while he was being murdered. It's not right.

Quote:
Tracy Martin said the calls paint a stark picture of what were his son's final moments.
"He was yelling for help, and no one could help him. He saw his life being taken away from him," Tracy Martin said.

Read more here: http://www.heraldonline.com/2012/03/...#storylink=cpy
Quote:
"My son was crying for help, and he still shot him," said Tracy Martin, Trayvon's father, upon listening to the tapes and hearing a voice believed to be his son terrifyingly muttering "No, no" as a gun-toting Zimmerman apparently approached.
Not to mention what his mother said:

Quote:
On the night of the shooting there were several 911 calls played by neighbors reporting a fight. In one of the calls, there is a voice in the background calling for help.

Sybrina says he believes that voice on the line is her son, telling Anderson, “I believe that's Trayvon Martin, that's my baby's voice. Every mother knows their child, and that's his voice. “

“He was afraid for his life,” says his father, “He saw his death coming. He saw his death coming. The screams got more frantic.”

I can hear the 911 tapes in my head. I can hear him yelling,” says Sybrina. “It's just very difficult as a mother to know that I had to bury my child

Read more: http://www.andersoncooper.com/2012/0...#ixzz1pzxgNo8e

Read more: http://www.andersoncooper.com/2012/0...#ixzz1pzxYhexL

He WAS a football player at some point when he was younger. So, GZ was a bouncer and known physical aggressor.

You have your opinion but I have my own and there are plenty of facts and evidence to support GZ being the aggressor. The eyewitnesses didn't all say the same thing and I think we all know the credibility problem with them and being led by the Sanford PD.

Are you joking? He couldn't ASK Trayvon a question because it wasn't in his history to confront someone but he had no problem disregarding the dispatcher and going after Trayvon with a gun, that is less confrontational than rolling down the window and speaking to another human being instead of just shooting them...

Oh, the experts, not true-ONE said it WAS Trayvon and one said it WASN'T GZ. As I posted before about this:

So that method focused on GZ. The other method did not exclude GZ it instead concluded it was Trayvon so essentially one test was a negative for GZ and the other was a positive for Trayvon.

The two experts here actually used different methods to do the voice match. The 48% one was by Tom Owen who used voice identification software, Easy Voice Biometrics" to
Quote:
say with reasonable scientific certainty that it's not Zimmerman.
The other person, Ed Primeau, used
Quote:
audio enhancement and human analysis based on forensic experience
to conclude:
Quote:
I believe that's Trayvon Martin in the background, without a doubt," Primeau says, stressing that the tone of the voice is a giveaway. "That's a young man screaming.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/n...0,250481.story

As far as the investigators testimony it was not responsive to the issue of whose voice it was or wasn't, it was about whether the investigator got any "insight" into it-the investigator would NOT be the one identifying the voice or conducting the test. He never said testing didn't indicate whose voice it was so I find the two testers who actually addressed that issue a little more relevant.

His father said it wasn't him and the two self-proclaimed experts, did not say it was TM. The investigator said, during the bond meeting, the FBI's report on the screams gave him no insight into who's voice it was.

Then TM takes off running, right? He's a football player and can make 70 yards in less than a minute!

Except GZ wasn't straddling TM, it was the other way around, there were eyewitnesses to this fact. We have no idea whether or not TM has a history of fighting or violence. I know a lot of guys who have been in fights, but have no record of it. None of the above matches what we know as fact at all.

One word, wax!

It wasn't in his history to confront the people he'd reported, so this doesn't surprise me. It doesn't surprise me that he ceased to follow when he was told they didn't need him to do that. He's cooperated and he's done everything right and that has been asked of him since that night. But that is just my opinion. :moo:
.

 

[Aedrys]

Imo, a person who just wanted to shoot someone wouldn't wait a heartbeat to do it. We see people like that all day everyday. George called the police. He spent several minutes on the phone and keeping an eye on the person he perceived as suspicious. He engaged in a relatively innocuous verbal exchange with that person, then spent another signficant amount of time engaged in a physical altercation with him, with eyewitnesses saying that George was on the bottom and calling for help. Plenty of opportunity to shoot the dude in cold blood, none of the opportunity taken. jmo

Maybe on television...come on. Shooting people is not as easy as it looks on television. There is no rule that says if someone is out to shoot someone they need to do it in a heartbeat, or it's too long. There is no study that says that either. GZ wanted control. He got mad that he couldn't get it, so the trigger got pulled and TM died. He waited to pull the trigger only when the situation wasn't going his way and he thought TM was either going to escape or get the better of him. GZ can't stand to be the loser. He made sure he didn't lose that night.

 

[Just K]

Why is it so hard to believe that GZ wanted to show the cops that he could do there job better.

Like I said before, if LE had walked up on a physical altercation they would not have shot whoever was on top at that moment. If they were going to use deadly force it would have been on the guy with the gun. But, even then, they probably would have ordered GZ to drop the gun.

 

[flourish]

I am not implying that she did not "do enough", I am implying that the contents of the conversation that Crump reports to us was not accurate. I'm implying that if she is called to the stand that she will be asked questions that may call into light that conversation.

Then you weren't one of the folks I was referring to. ...:waitasec: