2007 Church Yearbook Ranks Largest Denominations

[southcitymom]

Whether they are strict new rules or the confirmation of old ones, do they reflect the beliefs of members of the Catholic church? I was just wondering if stressing a strict continuation of rules about sacraments, annulments, and return to a more Latin mass will be appealing or not appealing to Catholics and prospective Catholics.

This is a good question. As with any denomination, there are parishoners who are strict adherents to Church teachings and parishioners who take what works for them and leave the rest. For example, I highly doubt that the vast majority of Catholic women (couples) only practice the rhythm method of birth control.

I personally love the Latin Mass - some Episcopal Churches still have that as well.

 

[Maral]

"Sacrament not to be given to remarried Catholics unless they remain celibate with their new partners"

That's not a new rule?? Not that I've followed all that closely, but I've never heard of that one!

If a Catholic has been divorced and has not gotten an annulment, he/she is considered still married in the eyes of the Church. So a remarriage is not considered a valid marriage. The Church has always taught that one must remain celibate outside of marriage.

 

[Nova]

This is a good question. As with any denomination, there are parishoners who are strict adherents to Church teachings and parishioners who take what works for them and leave the rest. For example, I highly doubt that the vast majority of Catholic women (couples) only practice the rhythm method of birth control.

I personally love the Latin Mass - some Episcopal Churches still have that as well.

I'm an outsider, of course, but it is my understanding that many American Catholics, at least, ignore some of those restrictions. The last priest with whom I discussed the matter told me he informs parishioners of the Church's position on birth control and marriage, and then leaves those matters to the individual conscience. He had a similar position in re homosexuality. While he wasn't going to announce these things were "okay," nor was he going to refuse to give communion to those who disagreed with the Church's teaching.

I love the Latin Mass, too, but you do need people who know how to sing the chants. Latin is a perfect solution to churches comprised of people speaking many, different languages.

 

[Peter Hamilton]

I'm married, I drink, have children, and accept people no matter what their sexual orientation.

However, to join my particular "tribe" you would have to be/get circumcised. Oh, if you are male, that is.

--lol--Well,Jewish people were way ahead of others when it came to circumcision--All western countries have circumcision and have for decades...and these days its especially important because of AIDS,etc.

 

[Nova]

--lol--Well,Jewish people were way ahead of others when it came to circumcision--All western countries have circumcision and have for decades...and these days its especially important because of AIDS,etc.

Um, Peter, actually the trend is in the obvious direction. The supposed health benefits of circumcision are highly debatable (and I'm not at all sure how it helps with AIDS), and even those supposed benefits can also be accomplished with regular, basic hygiene. As I understand the recent studies, anyway.

And for what it's worth, circumcision never caught on in Europe. I've heard jokes on British TV to the effect of "that's how you can tell a guy's American."

 

[Maral]

I'm an outsider, of course, but it is my understanding that many American Catholics, at least, ignore some of those restrictions. The last priest with whom I discussed the matter told me he informs parishioners of the Church's position on birth control and marriage, and then leaves those matters to the individual conscience. He had a similar position in re homosexuality. While he wasn't going to announce these things were "okay," nor was he going to refuse to give communion to those who disagreed with the Church's teaching.

I love the Latin Mass, too, but you do need people who know how to sing the chants. Latin is a perfect solution to churches comprised of people speaking many, different languages.

That's exactly right, Nova. All the Church can do is inform its members of the teachings. But it is up to the individual people whether or not to strictly follow the teachings. When a Catholic walks up to receive Communion, the priest doesn't ask first if you take birth control pills, if you you've been divorced and remarried, if you are in the state of sin, etc. All of that is between the individual and God.

 

[IrishMist]

This has always been my understanding - though of course it doesn't count if the former marriage was annulled by the Catholic Church.

You know what? Maybe I did know that. It's just that everyone I know that's Catholic and divorced/remarried just gets it annulled, so I never considered what happens without that annullment.

Annulments are one of those Catholic concepts that don't make sense to me.

 

[Nova]

That's exactly right, Nova. All the Church can do is inform its members of the teachings. But it is up to the individual people whether or not to strictly follow the teachings. When a Catholic walks up to receive Communion, the priest doesn't ask first if you take birth control pills, if you you've been divorced and remarried, if you are in the state of sin, etc. All of that is between the individual and God.

But, as I'm sure you know, there are some priests who are more aggressive than the one I mentioned. Some feel it their duty to investigate and uncover disobedience to the Church's teachings. I have no opinion on how common such priests are today.

 

[southcitymom]

You know what? Maybe I did know that. It's just that everyone I know that's Catholic and divorced/remarried just gets it annulled, so I never considered what happens without that annullment.

Annulments are one of those Catholic concepts that don't make sense to me.

It makes sense to me - it's a gigantic loophole! I agree that it doesn't make much theological sense to me...

 

[Nova]

It makes sense to me - it's a gigantic loophole! I agree that it doesn't make much theological sense to me...

Maral or somebody will explain it better to us, but as I understand the grounds for annulment, they do make sense. If a marriage was never consummated, if the individual seeking the annulment did not enter the marriage with a full understanding of the commitment being made, if a marriage was made under false pretenses (such as the husband and wife later discover they are siblings).

That's not to say that historically, politics haven't influenced the process at times, but I think we'd have to agree that politics have influenced all religions at some time or another.

 

[southcitymom]

I'm an outsider, of course, but it is my understanding that many American Catholics, at least, ignore some of those restrictions. The last priest with whom I discussed the matter told me he informs parishioners of the Church's position on birth control and marriage, and then leaves those matters to the individual conscience. He had a similar position in re homosexuality. While he wasn't going to announce these things were "okay," nor was he going to refuse to give communion to those who disagreed with the Church's teaching.

I love the Latin Mass, too, but you do need people who know how to sing the chants. Latin is a perfect solution to churches comprised of people speaking many, different languages.

A very dear friend of my husband's family is a Catholic priest - he spoke at our wedding but did not officiate (my great uncle, a Presbytarian minister, did that!). He has a similar stance and style of dealing with parishioners as the priest you reference. He's a neat man - I appreciate many of his insights.

 

[Maral]

But, as I'm sure you know, there are some priests who are more aggressive than the one I mentioned. Some feel it their duty to investigate and uncover disobedience to the Church's teachings. I have no opinion on how common such priests are today.

Oh, I'm sure there are some priests who feel it is their duty to uncover disobedience. But every priest I've ever know personally is more like the one you mentioned.

 

[Nova]

Oh, I'm sure there are some priests who feel it is their duty to uncover disobedience. But every priest I've ever know personally is more like the one you mentioned.

That's good to hear. The few horror stories I've heard (such as one friend whose priest broke the confessional seal and outed him to a prospective employer) all came from decades ago.

 

[southcitymom]

That's good to hear. The few horror stories I've heard (such as one friend whose priest broke the confessional seal and outed him to a prospective employer) all came from decades ago.

 

[Maral]

Maral or somebody will explain it better to us, but as I understand the grounds for annulment, they do make sense. If a marriage was never consummated, if the individual seeking the annulment did not enter the marriage with a full understanding of the commitment being made, if a marriage was made under false pretenses (such as the husband and wife later discover they are siblings).

That's not to say that historically, politics haven't influenced the process at times, but I think we'd have to agree that politics have influenced all religions at some time or another.

For an outsider, Nova, you are right on about most Catholic teachings. That's a good explaination of the grounds for annulment.

 

[southcitymom]

Maral or somebody will explain it better to us, but as I understand the grounds for annulment, they do make sense. If a marriage was never consummated, if the individual seeking the annulment did not enter the marriage with a full understanding of the commitment being made, if a marriage was made under false pretenses (such as the husband and wife later discover they are siblings).

That's not to say that historically, politics haven't influenced the process at times, but I think we'd have to agree that politics have influenced all religions at some time or another.

Yes, I do think I understand the grounds...I personally remain averse to the Catholic concept of annulment because I have seen some very valid (by most people's standards) marriages annuled.

My best friend is in the process of filling out a lengthy questionnaire about her 10-year, child-producing marriage to her ex-husband. This husband started having an affair and the young woman he is having an affair with is Catholic. He has to get his marriage to my friend (as well as another marriage) annuled so he can marry this Catholic woman. I'm sure the annulment will be granted and I think it's a sham.

 

[Nova]

For an outsider, Nova, you are right on about most Catholic teachings. That's a good explaination of the grounds for annulment.

Well, I love theater and I love law. Naturally, I find the Catholic Church fascinating! (Sorry. That's sounds snide. I don't mean to say the Church is only rules and show biz. I mean that relative to most Christian denominations, the Catholic Church offers an approach to spirituality that privileges ritual and tradition.)

 

[Nova]

Yes, I do think I understand the grounds...I personally remain averse to the Catholic concept of annulment because I have seen some very valid (by most people's standards) marriages annuled.

My best friend is in the process of filling out a lengthy questionnaire about her 10-year, child-producing marriage to her ex-husband. This husband started having an affair and the young woman he is having an affair with is Catholic. He has to get his marriage to my friend (as well as another marriage) annuled so he can marry this Catholic woman. I'm sure the annulment will be granted and I think it's a sham.

I only know about the famous cases such as Henry VIII and that Kennedy whose first wife went public in contesting the annulment. So I do understand the problem you are talking about: it's one thing to have your parents get divorced; I can only imagine what it's like to have your church rule your parents were never "really" married in the first place.

My point was just that, at least in theory, the grounds for annulment make logical sense, even if one disagrees with the way those rules are often interpreted.

 

[IrishMist]

Yes, I do think I understand the grounds...I personally remain averse to the Catholic concept of annulment because I have seen some very valid (by most people's standards) marriages annuled.

My best friend is in the process of filling out a lengthy questionnaire about her 10-year, child-producing marriage to her ex-husband. This husband started having an affair and the young woman he is having an affair with is Catholic. He has to get his marriage to my friend (as well as another marriage) annuled so he can marry this Catholic woman. I'm sure the annulment will be granted and I think it's a sham.

I guess that's my problem with it, too. My ex is another good example. He got his first two annulled (one produced 3 children), and probably would have done the same with ours except that I REFUSED to get married in a Catholic church. (With his cousin being a priest, that didn't go over too well )

 

[southcitymom]

I only know about the famous cases such as Henry VIII and that Kennedy whose first wife went public in contesting the annulment. So I do understand the problem you are talking about: it's one thing to have your parents get divorced; I can only imagine what it's like to have your church rule your parents were never "really" married in the first place.

My point was just that, at least in theory, the grounds for annulment make logical sense, even if one disagrees with the way those rules are often interpreted.

Exactly. I do get "logically" what the church says, but "emotionally", I rebel!

ETA: I, in a sense, lived through my friend's exhausting and painful marriage to that man with her and I am the godmother of their child. The thought that some spiritual body is going to come along and say "there never was a marriage" galls me.

It gets to me much more than my friend, by the way. She's happy to fill out the paperwork and wish him well with his annulment.