2009.03.14 Geraldo - Dr. Baden, Slip or Not on Chloroform In Caylee's hair test?

[RR0004]

I want the media to run with this already! Surely there's some reporter out there that has already watched all the movies on HBO on Demand and could blog this instead.

The Badens will immediately claim it was a hypothetical. But even if they are planting a seed for an involuntary manslaughter charge defense, this went from planting a seed to potentially planting an orchard. Out of season.

I would still like to know GR's take on this. Why even mention Caylee? Just a bit out of place, unless he already knew the answer...there was a test and ----fill in the blanks...whether you believe it came back positive or negative for drugs. All the public knew was that (initially) Caylee's hair was tested for decomp. We all wondered about how the other tests (toxicology) would come back. I remember getting the impression, though, that very little would be gleaned from the results.

 

[debbie0604]

---
Episode on CSI Miami last Mondy covered teenagers using pool cleaner and acetone to make chloroform.

Really? I never watch that show. Well I don't feel so bad about my computer research now.

While I know that Casey would have access to pool shock and bleach, I wondered where she might get acetone (not the kind that you use for nail polish). I guess one may buy it online. I know labs get it from medical suppliers/vendors. I can't remember specifically what type of medical facility CA worked in. Acetone is usually kept in laboratories.

 

[MomofBoys]

All the public knew was that (initially) Caylee's hair was tested for decomp. We all wondered about how the other tests (toxicology) would come back. I remember getting the impression, though, that very little would be gleaned from the results.

I know I had given up all hope of knowing a COD based on the pundits' speculation about chloroform dissipating through the air, yadda.

I'm not a scientist. CAN chloroform or any of its components stay in hair that long in that environment (triple-bagged/underwater) if the concentration is high enough? I know that it's unlikely, but have there been documented cases of chloroform being detected in similar circumstances? I know this question has been asked, but what was the consensus? Could hair that was sealed by duct tape, for all intents and purposes, preserve toxicological evidence?

 

[RR0004]

I know I had given up all hope of knowing a COD based on the pundits' speculation about chloroform dissipating through the air, yadda.

I'm not a scientist. CAN chloroform or any of its components stay in hair that long in that environment (triple-bagged/underwater) if the concentration is high enough? I know that it's unlikely, but have there been documented cases of chloroform being detected in similar circumstances? I know this question has been asked, but what was the consensus? Could hair that was sealed by duct tape, for all intents and purposes, preserve toxicological evidence?

That most definitely is the question that needs to be answered. And, if the answer is NO, why the heck have that exchange on GR? I don't trust that man as far as I could throw him.

BTW- awesome post!

 

[amethyst221]

I know I had given up all hope of knowing a COD based on the pundits' speculation about chloroform dissipating through the air, yadda.

I'm not a scientist. CAN chloroform or any of its components stay in hair that long in that environment (triple-bagged/underwater) if the concentration is high enough? I know that it's unlikely, but have there been documented cases of chloroform being detected in similar circumstances? I know this question has been asked, but what was the consensus? Could hair that was sealed by duct tape, for all intents and purposes, preserve toxicological evidence?

I have said yes, as to hair residue, based on my memory of what Dr. G said at the presser when the remains were identified as Caylee's, then have corrected myself because I no longer remember for sure if she mentioned chloroform specifically or just substances generally. I'm going looking for video of that now. I found a couple of scientific articles about the metabolism of chloroform, the different pathways in the presence or absence of oxygen, etc. But they don't address residues in the hair post-mortem and are too scientific for me. I wish someone would address in detail under what circumstances it could be found.

I always have trouble with the whole issue of chloroform and what it really means. With a small child, I think of it as a killing mechanism rather than a routine drugging method. It would take too much repetition or readministration, and most likely would have caused obvious physical damage. I need my own expert!

 

[Hot Dogs]

Deleted because I can't fix the format.

You did have an interesting link in there.

Evidence of Polydrug Use Using Hair Analysis: A Fatal Case Involving Heroin, Cocaine, Cannabis, Chloroform, Thiopental and Ketamine

This abstract seems to show a woman who had taken in chloroform - but it seems not to show up in her hair. Like just about everything is found except the chloroform. Though, maybe I'm not qualified to interpret that abstract.

 

[RR0004]

I have said yes, as to hair residue, based on my memory of what Dr. G said at the presser when the remains were identified as Caylee's, then have corrected myself because I no longer remember for sure if she mentioned chloroform specifically or just substances generally. I'm going looking for video of that now. I found a couple of scientific articles about the metabolism of chloroform, the different pathways in the presence or absence of oxygen, etc. But they don't address residues in the hair post-mortem and are too scientific for me. I wish someone would address in detail under what circumstances it could be found.

I always have trouble with the whole issue of chloroform and what it really means. With a small child, I think of it as a killing mechanism rather than a routine drugging method. It would take too much repetition or readministration, and most likely would have caused obvious physical damage. I need my own expert!

...and didn't I read somewhere that chloroform is a natural by-product of decomposition?

 

[amethyst221]

You did have an interesting link in there.

Evidence of Polydrug Use Using Hair Analysis: A Fatal Case Involving Heroin, Cocaine, Cannabis, Chloroform, Thiopental and Ketamine

This abstract seems to show a woman who had taken in chloroform - but it seems not to show up in her hair. Like just about everything is found except the chloroform. Though, maybe I'm not qualified to interpret that abstract.

I read that, too, thought the same, but have no idea if that can be concluded. I figured buying the whole article would leave me just as in the dark, so I didn't.

 

[amethyst221]

Here's a maybe ridiculous question. Would there be a distinction between residue in the hair post-mortem caused by administration at or prior to death (like by inhalation), and then metabolism of the chloroform, versus simple external, physical contact with/absorption by the hair? Would any residue from the second possibllity just wash away? Way beyond my expertise.

 

[natsound]

So what do y'all think... the defense tested hairs, came back positive for chloroform, Baden let it slip? If so, do y'all think they've turned over that bit of discovery to SA yet?

 

[Hot Dogs]

So what do y'all think... the defense tested hairs...

Nobody has provided evidence that the defense was given any hairs to test in the first place. If this happened, it would either be the State providing them voluntarily, or by force via a defense motion.

Can anyone find a defense motion asking for physical evidence (hairs) that was approved in court? Can we find a motion like this that was denied?

 

[Storm]

I watched last night and caught that immediately, too. It played out so fast that your first reaction was that it wasn't "news"...but it is. I've never heard of toxicology reports released. ^i^

I really hope someone else watched Geraldo last night and saw this too. It's driving me crazy. I think we may have a "true" bombshell. Or else I am crazy and everyone else has heard about this and I missed it. But I know if it has come out before or is not new, here is the place to post and find out.

Did anyone watch Geraldo last night, where he did the special on Anna Nicole Smith? He had on Dr. Baden and Dr. Perper to discuss the autopsy and the toxicology examination of Anna Nicole. Geraldo had asked Dr. Perper if he had done hair screening of Anna Nicole to get her drug history, as it stays in the hair and you can get a lot of information from the hair. Dr. Perper said no, because it's totally irrelevant.
When Geraldo heard him say it was irrelevant, he was stunned and told Perper to hold on. He then asked Dr. Baden, Is it totally irrelevant, if a drug overdose is in play, is it totally irrelevant to test her hair, in the way they tested, uh, poor Caylee Anthony's, the baby's hair? And Dr. Baden says, Uh, yea where they found chloroform in the baby's hair.
He then went on and answered the questions about Anna. I had taped this and rewound at least five times to get the exact words he said to get it right.

Ok, here's my question, did we see anywhere yet in discovery that they found chloroform in Caylee's hair? I don't think that has been released anywhere I've read. So, Me's thinking, Old, Dr. B, may have just opened foot and inserted directly yo mouth. What do you think? I even rewound it like 5 times, just to make sure I got it in context. It certainly sounds to me like he knew, as fact, there was chloroform in Caylee's hair. If that is true, that means, Caylee had ingested Chloroform at some time. I don't think just being in the trunk with it would show up in her hair follicles.

Can anyone tell me what can all me told from the hair testing, IF it was in fact in her hair test? Will it show if it was more than one time or how much? Or will it just show as in her system?

I thought this was big enough to make a thread and also quite a "bombshell" IMO, if this is true and hasn't been out yet.

Feel free to tell me I'm an idiot as this came out a long time ago and I didn't hear it.


Video added: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fZsd--Y2Hk

 

[BondJamesBond]

Soo....could the following be distinguished...one from the other: :waitasec:

a) hair on an alive Caylee that underwent uptake of chloroform if given to her over peri-mortem on at least one occassion, if not more

vs.

b) hair on a post-mortem Caylee that was enclosed in a trash bag that was saturated with chloroform resulting from anaerobic decomposition​

I expect the peri-mortem updtake is 'banded' based on the growth rate of the hair whilst post-mortem absorption would be uniform along the length of the hair.

If Casey were dosing Caylee peri-mortem, then, the post-mortem absorption would certainly cloud the results...wouldn't it? :waitasec:

 

[Tiki]

Nobody has provided evidence that the defense was given any hairs to test in the first place. If this happened, it would either be the State providing them voluntarily, or by force via a defense motion.

Can anyone find a defense motion asking for physical evidence (hairs) that was approved in court? Can we find a motion like this that was denied?

Wouldn't the hair be part of the remains handed over to the Defence to do their own autopsy? NG and others keep saying "covered with light-colored hair . . ."

 

[Hot Dogs]

Wouldn't the hair be part of the remains handed over to the Defence to do their own autopsy?

This may be a myth that has been overlooked. Lots of people are thinking the defense was given the remains for autopsy and testing. Apparently, the remains were not "handed over" for an autopsy by the defense. They were allowed to inspect her remains at the funeral home, and it was over quickly.

Look.

 

[PattyCake]

Wouldn't the hair be part of the remains handed over to the Defence to do their own autopsy? NG and others keep saying "covered with light-colored hair . . ."

They do keep saying that and I find that strange a bit. However when I go to get hair colour to cover my 'gray', I think I'm a medium brown but the charts show I'm light brown to dark blonde. I wouldn't consider my hair a dark blonde.

So I think Caylee's hair is a lot like my colour, medium brown... you catch my drift.

 

[amethyst221]

Soo....could the following be distinguished...one from the other: :waitasec:

a) hair on an alive Caylee that underwent uptake of chloroform if given to her over peri-mortem on at least one occassion, if not more

vs.

b) hair on a post-mortem Caylee that was enclosed in a trash bag that was saturated with chloroform resulting from anaerobic decomposition​

I expect the peri-mortem updtake is 'banded' based on the growth rate of the hair whilst post-mortem absorption would be uniform along the length of the hair.

If Casey were dosing Caylee peri-mortem, then, the post-mortem absorption would certainly cloud the results...wouldn't it? :waitasec:

That's what I was thinking -- two different methods of "exposure" and what difference that would make. For (b) I'd add possible saturation from liquid chloroform used for cleaning or other purpose to the chloroform from decomp mechanism. I just have no answers, only questions.

 

[MAMABEAR]

You are more than likely correct that she did it once and it resulted in Caylee's death. But I'm reminded of way back when, before people knew better, some parents would put alcohol into an infant's bottle to get them to sleep, which I wouldn't put past KC either. I also recall being told that as an infant, my dear dad would sometimes hold my eyes closed* to get me to go to sleep. Given this, I think it's possible that KC may have given Caylee just a bit to get her over the edge to sleep so that KC could then leave or so that Caylee would go to sleep in strange places so KC could party. It's also possible that with the intent to leave her in the trunk or whatever, KC gave a larger dose so it would last longer and/or as is more likely, imo, as a permanent resolution.

*NOTE: Despite the picture that may form in one's mind, it was not in any type of frustrated or cruel way. I am told that I didn't cry or get upset but would be comforted and go to sleep. He was very gentle, kind and always a comforting presence to me, as far back as I can remember.

I really lost here. I don't understand what ur dad did to you in comparison to KC using clo. When I read about your dad-----I used to do the same thang to my babies. He didn't put pressure on ur eyes. If you barely touch a baby's i-lids---they shut. I would rub my finger tip over baby's eyes and sing to them and ----->poof----asleep.

There are many ways to calm a child or put a child to sleep. Maybe this is what gits me about this case. A mother, needing something like drugs to put a baby to sleep. I have put many a baby to sleep without any ANY DRUGS. NO DRUGS. My youngest had to have his head rubbed----really slow. If I stopped before he was fully asleep he would reach up and grab my hand.

I hate KC for not doing this to Baby Caylee---oh Hell no---she had to "USE" something.

Gonna stop rat here, before I get banned.

WHEW!! All better now.

Back to Lin. Please put this in your mind when you think of your dad------Holdin the baby--maybe swayin--you in the crook of his arm. Awwwwww! Laying his finger tips over your tiny lil eyes---awwwww---so you could grab that tiny "touch" and gently ease off to sleep. Awwwwwwww. Thank You for making me see that pic. Awwwwww. I lub you. But I hate KC. LOL

 

[Storm]

I heard Badin and Greta say that..in fact, Greta came in late on the case because of the election, I think, and started out the first couple of days saying she didn't understand something or other because the bones were in the bag.
I thought she didn't realize that they were scattered. ^i^....and then I swore off Greta..

bold,me

He said "since all of the bones were contained in the bag."
I heard him say that twice in different interviews.
He was implying that someone had placed Caylee's remains in the woods recently when he was saying that.

 

[MomofBoys]

To me, use of chloroform + child = homicide.

How many here have kidded about using baby Benedryl, but would never use it to induce sleep? There is no one out there that could use chloroform and not know that there was a potential for death. Chemicals and toddlers don't mix. Especially when you're most likely brewing the stuff in an amateur at-home lab. If she did those searches, then she'd know the dangers. You can follow the same paths she did and see the warnings on the pages.

I guess I can't fathom anyone using chloroform in a [asinine] "innocent" way because there's no such thing. Even in mystery novels the stuff is used to incapacitate, and I've never seen a fictionalized account of it being used on a child.

If this is true, I think it can both be the nail in Casey's coffin (combined with the searches and the lack of proof that the car was ever used by anyone other than KC) and an opening, because I am afraid that there will be at least one person on that jury that will think "Oh, it was an accident, then." ARGH!

Then I will promptly shove my TV and my computer out the window and take my family to live in the woods somewhere, as I would never want to communicate with humans again.