2009.03.14 Geraldo - Dr. Baden, Slip or Not on Chloroform In Caylee's hair test?

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  • #241
Duct tape usually rips right across the strip doesn't it? You can tear it with your hands. Right?

Good luck to you Issi! Maybe if one has really long, sharp fingernails... Personally, I find duct tape quite "uncooperative". Often times NOT ripping right across. Often times having it's own ideas and ripping off in a "not-so-funny" diagonal or ripped up fashion. Bad duct tape!!!
 
  • #242
ITA agree. I've never understood why people think Casey went to all the trouble of chloroform. It is not easy at all to make or even that easy to buy already made. It has been said a million times that Casey was/is lazy, so why would she use chloroform when there are so many other, much easier, things she could use to put Caylee to sleep?

I think chloroform MAY have been used in an attempt to clean the trunk, it is a powerful cleaning agent/solvent, something George probably knew, but I really don't believe KC used it on Caylee.

Where would George have gotten chloroform? If he had it that means Casey had access to it too, don't ya think?
 
  • #243
Nobody has provided evidence that the defense was given any hairs to test in the first place. If this happened, it would either be the State providing them voluntarily, or by force via a defense motion.

Can anyone find a defense motion asking for physical evidence (hairs) that was approved in court? Can we find a motion like this that was denied?

Do you not think that her hair remained with her body? The state cut the duct tape out of her hair and I can't seem them keeping all her hair.
 
  • #244
He very clearly says Yeah, where they found chloroform in her hair...

I don't know how that could be interpreted except exactly as it is...

Considering his wifey is on the defense team, there could be some info that they have seen or heard of that we have not-OR it is possible when the defense did their autopsy and testing of the remains THEY found chloroform so they KNOW it was there?
 
  • #245
I posted this earlier on the Rumor thread. I was asked to re-post it out here.. I had no clue there were 10 pages devoted to this.
All thoughts are based upon the premise that Michael Baden knows something about Caylee's hair testing that we don't know. Otherwise, there is no reason for a discussion of this at all. :)

First, since probably none of us are Forensic Chemists, and since we definitely do NOT have the chemical composition of any of Caylee's hair remains, we have to consider what COULD be possibly meant by his statement. Also, there's the fact that while intact Chloroform as a chemical compound may not have been found within the hair shaft as it grew, indicating long term exposure, the metabolites of Chloroform, if found in larger amounts not usually found in the same concentrations in a small child's hair WOULD be significant.
With that disclaimer out of the way, these are my thoughts as posted on the Casey Rumor thread:

Obviously there are different things he could have meant. These are what I could come up with.. While we are dscussing Chloroform in her hair, I think it's relative to the discussion to mention the possible presence of Xanax ( a prescription sedative believed to have been given to Caylee on a continuing basis by Casey) also. As to which scenario is more likely, I lean towards the first scenario, because I believe it is the most likely one:

1) Caylee's hair found in the trunk had Chloroform liquid coating part of it, ( much like hair spray coats hair) meaning that her body was placed in an area of the trunk where Chloroform was spilled, or that she vomited Chloroform and it got on her hair. She could also have already been deceased and been placed on an area of carpeting or other material soaked with Chloroform.

2) Caylee's loose hair ( like the one with the death band) in the trunk was tested and was found to be positive for the systemic presence of chloroform metabolites in the hair shaft.This would prove long-term dosing.
Addressing the issue of additional Xanax dosing for a moment- We might also find that other sedating drugs were present upon chemical analysis of the hair, such as a benzodiazapine like Xanax. ( I think Caylee's "Zannys" in Casey-speak was Xanax) . I hope DEA records from pharmacies and all family info pertaining to Xanax quantities in the home for the last year of Caylee's life have been obtained and reviewed. I hope records are released at trial if any discrepency or duplication of prescrbing at multiple Pharmacies was found. I want to know whose Xanax Casey was stealing (if it wasn't Casey's prescription), and if someone in the family knew they had doses missing from their prescription bottle or bottles and silently complied with Casey. Depending upon the dosage prescribed for an adult, as little as 1/8th of a single pill probably would have caused altered consciousness in a baby.

3) Caylee's decomposed remains with hair attached were tested and the long-term presence of Chloroform in her system was detected in her hair. Casey's Internet searches on making Chloroform point directly to intent to harm by illegal drugging. Any searches in the home which turned up chemicals used to make the Chloroform and which are not usually found in a home would also be significant. As we know, hair does often retain certain metabolites of drugs and other chemicals which our bodies processed. Again, it's possible that Chloroform + a Rx sedative would be found.

One interesting thing that I just realized when thinking about the possibility of determining length of ingestion of drugs is that there is video and photographic evidence of the total length of Caylee'e hair days before most people beleive she was killed. The videos and photos of her with her great-grandfather at the nursing home. IF Dr. G was correct in being as excited about the hair as she seemed to be at the time of Caylee's remains discovery, it's possible that some hair was fully intact in length despite the months of exposure to the elements. That would be a best- case scenario and Caylee's own body would speak as a witness to what was done to her over a period of time.

The first liklihood of what Michael Baden may have meant is not that alarming or earth-shattering, because we know Chloroform was found in the trunk in greater concentration than those of the metabolites which are found in a decomposing corpse without a history of exposure or ingestion of Chloroform drugging. It would confirm that Caylee contacted Chloroform which backs up the forensic analysis of the trunk gasses. It's still sad, very sad.

The second liklihood of concentrations of any drug in Caylee's hair shaft structure, whether found in the car trunk, on the remains months later, or both would be huge. Neither one could be explained in any measure by the defense, and it would totally blow any " accidental overdose" theory out of the water. This may be one reason Baez is already questioning evidence collection in the car.

In any case, if true, I believe the evidence , if present, will benefit the prosecution at trial, IMO.

Maria
 
  • #246
HOLY CANOLI is all I can say...I think it's a total defense ploy..why did Geraldo even bring Caylee up in the first place? HINKY, double-triple HINKY..IMO it was on purpose and for a purpose. JMO.
 
  • #247
:clap::clap::clap::clap:
I really hope someone else watched Geraldo last night and saw this too. It's driving me crazy. I think we may have a "true" bombshell. Or else I am crazy and everyone else has heard about this and I missed it. But I know if it has come out before or is not new, here is the place to post and find out.

Did anyone watch Geraldo last night, where he did the special on Anna Nicole Smith? He had on Dr. Baden and Dr. Perper to discuss the autopsy and the toxicology examination of Anna Nicole. Geraldo had asked Dr. Perper if he had done hair screening of Anna Nicole to get her drug history, as it stays in the hair and you can get a lot of information from the hair. Dr. Perper said no, because it's totally irrelevant.
When Geraldo heard him say it was irrelevant, he was stunned and told Perper to hold on. He then asked Dr. Baden, Is it totally irrelevant, if a drug overdose is in play, is it totally irrelevant to test her hair, in the way they tested, uh, poor Caylee Anthony's, the baby's hair? And Dr. Baden says, Uh, yea where they found chloroform in the baby's hair.
He then went on and answered the questions about Anna. I had taped this and rewound at least five times to get the exact words he said to get it right.

Ok, here's my question, did we see anywhere yet in discovery that they found chloroform in Caylee's hair? I don't think that has been released anywhere I've read. So, Me's thinking, Old, Dr. B, may have just opened foot and inserted directly yo mouth. What do you think? I even rewound it like 5 times, just to make sure I got it in context. It certainly sounds to me like he knew, as fact, there was chloroform in Caylee's hair. If that is true, that means, Caylee had ingested Chloroform at some time. I don't think just being in the trunk with it would show up in her hair follicles.

Can anyone tell me what can all me told from the hair testing, IF it was in fact in her hair test? Will it show if it was more than one time or how much? Or will it just show as in her system?

I thought this was big enough to make a thread and also quite a "bombshell" IMO, if this is true and hasn't been out yet.

Feel free to tell me I'm an idiot as this came out a long time ago and I didn't hear it.


Video added: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fZsd--Y2Hk

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::crazy:
 
  • #248
Do you not think that her hair remained with her body? The state cut the duct tape out of her hair and I can't seem them keeping all her hair.

I'm not sure what your point is here. I'm begging anyone to provide evidence that the State has given any hairs (from vehicle or body) to the defense for testing.
 
  • #249
Duct tape usually rips right across the strip doesn't it? You can tear it with your hands. Right?

That's what I've always done too. Once you get it started it tears pretty easily.
 
  • #250
You beat me to it! GMTA :)
I bet it's true and the defense knows it.

They..baez and company are looking for someone to blame for Caylee's death, maybe they found the guy they will prove really did it....RM

He may be their target and they will spin a web for him.:Banane10: jb maybe be doing a happy dance, but, he might be celebrating too soon...he wants so badly to get his girl off, and, they can enjoy life with the spoils from the poor baby's death.
 
  • #251
Personally, it makes sense that the defense knows about chloroform. This explains how they are now trying to go after Ricardo M with the "Woo her with chloroform" picture that was on his computer. It seems as if they are having to account for the presence of the choloroform by creating reasonable doubt that someone other than the PERP could have been the source of the chloroform. I don't doubt that LKB would discuss little tidbits of the case with her hubby. Although I refuse to say pillow talk, because if I allow that image to come into my mind I may have to go wash my eyes out with clorox. :D
 
  • #252
I'm not sure what your point is here. I'm begging anyone to provide evidence that the State has given any hairs (from vehicle or body) to the defense for testing.


First, from the person you quoted who asked if they ( meaning either Forensic Pathologist at autopsy or other Forensic team, I would think) kept her hair intact- Yes, they would have kept the hair found on the scalp or skull intact as best as possible. This doesn't mean they wouldn't remove SOME hairs for testing but the length is important for testing for metabolites, as stated in my post above.

Hot Dogs, under the rules of Discovery, doesn't the defense have access to all test results performed by the State or Federal Pathologist/ Labs?
I don't think any hairs have been " given" to the defense. I believe they would have to file legal motions for their own independent testing to be valid in court, wouldn't they?
 
  • #253
Personally, it makes sense that the defense knows about chloroform. This explains how they are now trying to go after Ricardo M with the "Woo her with chloroform" picture that was on his computer. It seems as if they are having to account for the presence of the choloroform by creating reasonable doubt that someone other than the PERP could have been the source of the chloroform. I don't doubt that LKB would discuss little tidbits of the case with her hubby. Although I refuse to say pillow talk, because if I allow that image to come into my mind I may have to go wash my eyes out with clorox. :D

The thing that really ticks me off about this "coincedence" is the fact that the "cloroform" searches where done on tha A's home computer, NOT KC"S personal laptop. RM got inside the A's home and did computer searchers to FRAME her? Me thinks not...
 
  • #254
I'm sure LE tested the hair or hairs of Caylee's found in the car and also the hair's on the duct tape and if indeed they tested for cholorform, this is the reason LE stated a while back that they think Caylee's death was intentional.

The autopsy didn't give us COD so I have been wondering what evidence LE has to claim they know it was intentional.

IMO, proof of chloroform in Caylee's system proves it.

I had thought I had read somewhere that chloroform dissipates over time. Maybe that would be intissues, but not hair...did I hear wrong, someone please set me straight on this...OKAY????
 
  • #255
I agree that it's PROBABLY part of a desperate ploy. IMO, Michael Baden should not be allowed to open his mouth about this case considering his wife's position as legal counsel, or co-counsel or whatever she is. ( Linda Tripp look- alike?)
 
  • #256
I really hope someone else watched Geraldo last night and saw this too. It's driving me crazy. I think we may have a "true" bombshell. Or else I am crazy and everyone else has heard about this and I missed it. But I know if it has come out before or is not new, here is the place to post and find out.

Did anyone watch Geraldo last night, where he did the special on Anna Nicole Smith? He had on Dr. Baden and Dr. Perper to discuss the autopsy and the toxicology examination of Anna Nicole. Geraldo had asked Dr. Perper if he had done hair screening of Anna Nicole to get her drug history, as it stays in the hair and you can get a lot of information from the hair. Dr. Perper said no, because it's totally irrelevant.
When Geraldo heard him say it was irrelevant, he was stunned and told Perper to hold on. He then asked Dr. Baden, Is it totally irrelevant, if a drug overdose is in play, is it totally irrelevant to test her hair, in the way they tested, uh, poor Caylee Anthony's, the baby's hair? And Dr. Baden says, Uh, yea where they found chloroform in the baby's hair.
He then went on and answered the questions about Anna. I had taped this and rewound at least five times to get the exact words he said to get it right.

Ok, here's my question, did we see anywhere yet in discovery that they found chloroform in Caylee's hair? I don't think that has been released anywhere I've read. So, Me's thinking, Old, Dr. B, may have just opened foot and inserted directly yo mouth. What do you think? I even rewound it like 5 times, just to make sure I got it in context. It certainly sounds to me like he knew, as fact, there was chloroform in Caylee's hair. If that is true, that means, Caylee had ingested Chloroform at some time. I don't think just being in the trunk with it would show up in her hair follicles.

Can anyone tell me what can all me told from the hair testing, IF it was in fact in her hair test? Will it show if it was more than one time or how much? Or will it just show as in her system?

I thought this was big enough to make a thread and also quite a "bombshell" IMO, if this is true and hasn't been out yet.

Feel free to tell me I'm an idiot as this came out a long time ago and I didn't hear it.


Video added: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fZsd--Y2Hk
----------
Hi, I read an article on the BodyFarm site that went into this.It was through the Wikpedia pages.They can pick up chloroform up to I believe 6 mos. after it was ingested.Yes it shows up in the hair.I heard that too on Geraldo.I think what they meant is in Anna N.'s case they knew what she was taking so hair test wouldn't be necessary.On Caylee they were going to do the test. This was way before the body was found,they had only the one hair with death band. P.S.You are not crazy LOL! I can see them saying they picked it up on her hair,after all~Kc.didnt do it~ Zanni did!
 
  • #257
Hot Dogs, under the rules of Discovery, doesn't the defense have access to all test results performed by the State or Federal Pathologist/ Labs?

I think this is true.


I don't think any hairs have been " given" to the defense. I believe they would have to file legal motions for their own independent testing to be valid in court, wouldn't they?

If you back up a page or so, I posted a link to a motion asking for hair (from vehicle) to test. I want to know if the defense was ever actually given any hair for testing.
 
  • #258
  • #259
Cain is giving the defense a plea for 15 years, with a changing story.

I can't figure out what this statement is saying. The Deputy that blew off Kronk is telling the defense that they can plea bargain? This came from the Baez deposition of Cain?
 
  • #260
IIRC, he stated in his interview with LE that he was receiving alot of flack and rude comments on his myspace account over it, and that's why he removed it.

Win her over with Chloroform is a new take on the old joke, Win her over with booze.

and...candy is dandy, but liquor is quicker.:snooty:
 
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