2009.03.14 Geraldo - Dr. Baden, Slip or Not on Chloroform In Caylee's hair test?

[mitzi]

The defense did their own 'autospy' back in Dec, if they didn't test the hair and bones they are truly incompetent.

This may have already been noted, as I am still catching up in this thread, but didn't we read that Cindy gave JB, Caylee's actual hairbrush? That could be a source of hair to be tested too.

 

[amethyst221]

There was a lot of discussion by the defense, a lot of which came as a surprise at the time, about defense experts examining the remains, at the hearing where they discussed photos of the remains, and how they would be shared with all the defense experts all over the country. JB stated that Dr. Lee had examined the body. Someone on the defense team took all the photographs at issue. The defense had possession of the remains up until the time Casey turned them over to the A's. All the experts conceded that without tissue remaining, the "second autopsy" wouldn't really be an autopsy. I don't know why the hair found with the remains, whatever hadn't been taken for testing by the state, wouldn't be turned over to the defense for their own testing. I see a clear difference in filing motions to get part of or testing of the relatively few hairs found earlier in the car, etc. It seems there was a lot of hair later found with the remains.

I agree that Baden may have mispoken on GR -- who knows. But if he didn't, I think it's just as likely that he got his information from the defense side and tests that they may have conducted.

I also remember JB's statements about his solemn duty, having custody and control over Caylee's remains.

 

[christee]

and...candy is dandy, but liquor is quicker.:snooty:

I can vouch for that! JK

:martini: :tipsy:

 

[PattyCake]

HotDOG - I have to get to bed, don't have time for links. I posted a piece of a legitimate discussion.

But I ASSURE YOU that defense had possession of body to do with what they 'pleased'. They would have been able to retrieve as much hair as they wanted. If you haven't been in a funeral home, they have substantial equipment that would have been a good substitute for Dr. Spitz. It would not be the first time he did an autopsy at a funeral home.

NOT everything is going to be found on the internet as Caylees remains and what was done with them/to them has not been spoken about to anyone in the media.

 

[christee]

This may have already been noted, as I am still catching up in this thread, but didn't we read that Cindy gave JB, Caylee's actual hairbrush? That could be a source of hair to be tested too.

I believe her hair was tested along with KCs for mtDNA match?

I could be wrong or just way off my rocker

 

[Rumpole]

If the defence collected evidence from anywhere they would have to be able to show documented chain of custody of each item, proof of its bona fides, guaranteed no chance of contamination etc. LE has property officers, sworn officers doing searches etc. What could JB muster?
It's no good sending Joe bloggs or Dr lee to pick stuff up and put it in an old plastic bag, and pocket it.

 

[debbie0604]

I would think that the chloroform results on hair strands or any other "toxicology results" that were also performed on the tissue samples of the skeletal remains would be included in the autopsy report performed by Dr. G., who also worked in conjunction with the State and FBI Crime Labs. To my knowledge, that autopsy report has not been released.

 

[Thinaire]

If Casey was chloroforming Caylee on a reg basis, the inhalation method makes no sense since it needs to be administered every 15-20 minutes to continue "sleep".
How is chloroform used if taken orally? Will it induce a longer sleep?
How would anyone mask the strong taste and prevent mouth and throat burns?
I think if it was used, it was only used one fatal time.
She could have been using Benadryl or other drugs to put Caylee to sleep on party nights....I can't buy the chloroforming her on a reg basis.

Just a random thought...I recall a book on Child Behavior with the chapter on "tantrums" marked in KC's room.

Could KC have used chloroform to silence Caylee's tantrums?

I still believe in the possibility that KC was drugging her friends, perhaps family, to steal from them.

 

[BondJamesBond]

It's no good sending Joe bloggs or Dr lee to pick stuff up and put it in an old plastic bag, and pocket it.

*snip*

Ahhh...the ole "Humphrey Hop" lives on in modern forensic science...

 

[Hot Dogs]

I'm finding bits and pieces in the media archives...

Caylee Remains Released To Funeral Home

12/23

Judge Stan Strickland granted the request, and Casey Anthony's attorney, Jose Baez, said those and other items, such as microscopic slides and autopsy reports, are needed so defense experts can conduct their own autopsy. Last week, the chief medical examiner in Orlando ruled the death a homicide, but said no actual cause could not be determined.

Baez, and a team of defense experts, went to the area where Caylee's remains were found last week but were not granted access to the site by the Orange County Sheriff's Office.

The judge ordered that the state hand over photographs and X-rays of the remains to the defense within 14 days.

"Time is of the essence in that there is a grieving family that merely wants closure, and as long as the second autopsy cannot be conducted properly, that can not happen," Baez wrote in the motion.

A testy e-mail exchange between Baez and the state attorney's office was also released.

"The items you speak of will be provided in discovery in due course. Why do you believe that 'time is of the essence?'" prosecutor Jeff Ashton wrote. "I am not aware of any exigent circumstances in this case."

"These items are needed for the second autopsy. Now Jeff, it's close to Christmas, be nice," Baez replied.

Link.

Breaking: Caylee's 2nd Autopsy Now Complete
January 7, 2008

"Just moments ago the skeletonized remains of little Caylee have reportedly gone through a second autopsy. Nancy Grace has the latest tonight at 8 & 10 p.m. ET"

 

[shgrbkr]

IMO, there can't be any postmortem absorption of any drug, chemical, food, etc...because the body is no longer functioning. If Caylee was only given chloro right around or at the time of death, then I seriously doubt if it would have shown up at all in the hair because of the slow rate of growth. I have wondered if bone marrow would show anything as it's turnover rate is much faster in comparison. Pulp in teeth has also been shown to be useful at least in retrieving DNA. I'm also pretty sure that hair does not absorb things externally. Hair color, for example, is only on the surface of the hair. It is not absorbed into the hair shaft. That's why those of us with some gray strands have to re-color every few weeks. If chloro was found, it was IN the hair, and it doesn't evaporate from the hair shaft.
I also see no reason why the defense wouldn't have done their own hair tests. Hair is a part of the remains and after the ME was done with the remains, they were turned over to the defense. Why would they just turn over the bones without the hair? IMO, the person doing the second autopsy went into the funeral home and came out with whatever samples he/she needed to perform extended tests. Those tests couldn't have been done right there at the funeral home. So..I suspect Dr. Baden's inside info came to him from his wife, after she shared test results with him.
If chloro was found in Caylee's hair, then that must mean that Caylee had undergone previous exposures to the chemical.
This brings me, slightly off topic, to the duct tape. Why would KC have wrapped the duct tape at least once around Caylee's entire head just to administer chloro? I doubt if she had done it previously using that method. That's why THIS TIME shows KC knew it was also the LAST TIME.
One of my possible theories is that KC trussed poor Caylee up in the trunk with an open container of chloro and left her in there to die of heat stroke while she was anesthetized. A true passive-aggressive way to kill her child. She checked a few hours later, and Caylee was dead.
JMO, of course.

 

[Bobbisangel]

If I am not mistaken, RM deleted the advertisment for chloroform off of his computer the day that KC was arrested. I thought it was odd at the time and now I wonder why. Anyone else?

If he has watched any of these shows or any news he would know that LE was looking at chloroform as a cause of Caylee's death. Because he had that little statement on his puter he probably figured that LE would be knocking on his door if they ever saw it or someone told them....so he erased it.

 

[SeekingJana]

I'm going to respectfully ask for proof that the defense had physical possession of Caylee's remains. I did a bunch of forum sleuthing this morning and came up with info on their autopsy. It was done quickly at the funeral home by Dr. Spitz. The remains were inside the funeral home when he did his autopsy examination. They were not at a lab of their (defense) choice.

This sounds quite more reasonable to me because the legal chain of custody has to be maintained for every single tiny fragmnt of the remains ( Sorry it's so sad) until the testing by the State lab is completed. The remains are changed to a " release" status and are released to the crematory or funeral home of the next of kin's choice.

 

[mitzi]

I think this is true.




If you back up a page or so, I posted a link to a motion asking for hair (from vehicle) to test. I want to know if the defense was ever actually given any hair for testing.

Even if we cannot find "proof" that the defense was given hair for testing, I think we can assume that if Baez didn't get the hair, that he would still be whining about it.

 

[shgrbkr]

Even if we cannot find "proof" that the defense was given hair for testing, I think we can assume that if Baez didn't get the hair, that he would still be whining about it.

Agreed. It makes sense that since the remains were released to the family, it stands to reason that hair is part of the remains and was available to the defense. They did not have to be "given" hair for testing. Also, I don't know if the defense has to show chain of custody. Only the state.

 

[mitzi]

Tonight on Geraldo, GR spoke of 2 separate LE interviews of Officer Cain, each within 6 hours of each other. GR said why did LE have Cain come back 6hrs. later to change his story. Where he got the information, I'm not sure, but it's possible that he learned of this from Baez's deposition of Cain last week. Anyway, GR stated that the prosecution was covering up for a changing story from Cain regarding meeting Kronk on Suburban. He said that the first version of Cain's story puts Kronk five feet behind Cain as Cain examined a bag and found nothing. GR states that in Cain's 2nd version of that day, that Kronk remained at the side of the road. I was wanting to scream at the TV because GR was claiming that the prosecution shouldn't be doing such underhanded things to cover up Cain's story. Then K. Guilfoyle agreed with GR (which totally shocked me, since she is a prosecutor), and went on to say that she thought that the defense also had every right to be in on Dr. G's autopsy. Guess KG is drinking the koolaid too!

 

[Ripley007]

Anyone here ever seen the Dutch flim "The VANISHING"? (True it was remade in America-but not the same thing...) Chloroform was a major component of this film. Upon veiwing the origianal film years ago, I was left dazed for days...as if the film somehow subduded me. KC liked movies, yes, (but maybe not artsy fims), she just MAY have rented the US version of this film in early 2008. A great LE link would be her video store rental invoice from the past year...

 

[shgrbkr]

Anyone here ever seen the Dutch flim "The VANISHING"? (True it was remade in America-but not the same thing...) Chloroform was a major component of this film. Upon veiwing the origianal film years ago, I was left dazed for days...as if the film somehow subduded me. KC liked movies, yes, (but maybe not artsy fims), she just MAY have rented the US version of this film in early 2008. A great LE link would be her video store rental invoice from the past year...

No doubt! I'd bet that LE has looked up KC a$$ with a microscope and have that info.

 

[Ripley007]

No doubt! I'd bet that LE has looked up KC a$$ with a microscope and have that info.

I agree. It's just I wish we had LE PROOF! Much was made out of the films KC and TonE rented the evening of 6/16/08. I've seen them both. They are most definitly "guy" movies. Guessing TonE picked BOTH of them. So therefore...nothing can be made of it, other than the fact that KC was willing to watch movies featuring torture killings/bodies in trunks/ etc...mere HOURS after brutally killing her own flesh and blood daughter....! Did she wake up in a cold sweat that FIRST night TonE?

 

[Ripley007]

Even if we cannot find "proof" that the defense was given hair for testing, I think we can assume that if Baez didn't get the hair, that he would still be whining about it.

Every time there's one of these little imprompto hearings....is it my imagination or is the SA table not holding back laughter at JB"S performance?

How many times does JB start to "speak" before the prosecutors are interupting and reminding the judge what a bozo this dude is....