2009.06.19 FBI Decomposition Report

[Virtual Truth]

I agree that it was an odd way to phrase it. I think what it shows is that whether or not KC made chloroform LE was looking hard for evidence that she did. Personally, it seems like way too much work on KC's part when a few pieces of duct tape will do the trick.

Now that I think about it, though, I could see the sequence: chloroform + duct tape + heart sticker (because she wanted to kill her even she loved her and didn't want her to suffer ). The chloroform would knock her out and she wouldn't struggle as she suffocated :cry:

Who says KC was the one who made the chloroform? It could be that KC knew someone who made this substance....let's say perhaps she had experienced the use of it with this someone and knew just where to get it when she needed it...say around June 9 or 10......isn't that when she last stayed overnight with RM? I am certainly not saying that he used chloroform, or that he would have any idea that KC took it from him if he did....BUT, he did have the photo of the ad on his computer. She hooked up with TonE about that time, so maybe she used him, too. This is just a thought that has been running through my head and has no basis of evidence...it is just a question.

 

[NocturnalLady]

It just seems unlikely to me that anyone would use pure acetone and chlorine to clean.I would think that they would use a cleaning product that would have other chemicals or additives that could be found through testing.
I'm just guessing,though. I think LE and SA will have that covered if they go with suspected chloroform used on Caylee.

She may not have been trying to clean per se - just create a stronger odor to over power what was in her car. Maybe even trying to use anything she thought was a harsh chemical to eat away the stained area in the carpet.

 

[NocturnalLady]

Maybe BJB is too modest. All I know is BJB is pretty darn smart. Would love it if BJB just posted a theory (from soup to nuts so to speak)....here kitty kitty.

Yeah me too! How about it BJB?

 

[Whisperer]

Chemicals used for dry cleaniing contains chloroform...carbon tetrachloride. GA like to detail cars, perhaps he had dry cleaning type products in the garage and attempted to clean the stain.

 

[Jolynna]

Or, was her intent to "frame" TonE or one of his friends by putting the paper towels into his trash????

Since she put the trash bag in her car and then abandoned the car, if she was trying to frame somebody, she did a really bad job.

Especially since Tony's/Tony's roommate's name would lead straight to where KC was hiding (without Caylee & with no reasonable account of where Caylee was).

 

[BondJamesBond]

Maybe BJB is too modest. All I know is BJB is pretty darn smart. Would love it if BJB just posted a theory (from soup to nuts so to speak)....here kitty kitty.

Yeah me too! How about it BJB?

...tally of people fooled thus far = 2

Clearly you all aren't paying attention...I've gotta be approaching triple-digits in terms of the # of theories posted :bang:

I'm kinda playin' the laws of probability. IOW...if you spin the wheel enough times you're gonna land the 'right' one eventually

Seriously...I appreciate the kind words, if even just trying to goad me into yet another ridiculous theory. I wish I had something better to offer. Shifting sands of how to interpret the results right now kinda make it hard to stand solidly on any one spot.

Keep an eye on JWG. He'll have this figured out shortly.

OT: I'm trying to get up to speed on the potential for Kesse, Ocasio & George to be the result of a Hataway serial killing @ the moment. Ocasio not found after TES searches. Cell pings yet to be released. Many commonalities...incl. similarities w/the Kesse security video and some areas she frequented. Feel confident for Caylee that they have the killer...and justice will be served. "Let not your heart be troubled."

 

[sumbunny]

This may be slightly O/T as it relates to the chloroform. But Acetone is also found in nail polish remover, chlorine for the pool.

Casey had access to both of these items. Could it have been an attempt to "de-stain" the trunk (using the acetone) And then Cover the smell using the chlorine.

We used to have a pool, and chlorine is very very strong, and covers most smells effectively.

Seeing as there were paper towels showing decomp fluids on them. It's a likely possibility that she was doing everything in her power to get rid of that smell and stain.

I agree with another poster who suggested that the water from the wet-vac was dumped in the backyard, causing the dogs to hit on areas.

Moo..

 

[Devon]

The paper towels had fatty acids on them which are what makes adipocere (grave wax). It doesn't appear to me that the towels were used to attempt a clean up of the trunk carpet, as I think that was stained with decomp. fluid (purge). This suggests to me that the towels were in contact with the body at some point, so did KC use them to handle the body, or to wipe her hands after doing so? If so, then it must have been at least a day or two into the decomp. process, because adipocere does not start to form straight after death. So was the body bagged on day one but handled again later, or was the bagging not done until a later date?

My guess is that the body was initially only wrapped in the blanket, but that when KC next looked at it, the decomp. changes were obvious, and that she then had to manoeuvre it into a plastic bag. This may also have been when she applied the tape, either to stop fluids escaping, or to cover the visual horrors of grave wax starting to form on the cheeks, or maybe Caylee's eyes or mouth were open and she couldn't handle dealing with the body without covering her face. The placement of the heart sticker may have been a sort of apology for the use of the tape.

 

[MaedchenX]

The paper towels had fatty acids on them which are what makes adipocere (grave wax). It doesn't appear to me that the towels were used to attempt a clean up of the trunk carpet, as I think that was stained with decomp. fluid (purge). This suggests to me that the towels were in contact with the body at some point, so did KC use them to handle the body, or to wipe her hands after doing so? If so, then it must have been at least a day or two into the decomp. process, because adipocere does not start to form straight after death. So was the body bagged on day one but handled again later, or was the bagging not done until a later date?

My guess is that the body was initially only wrapped in the blanket, but that when KC next looked at it, the decomp. changes were obvious, and that she then had to manoeuvre it into a plastic bag. This may also have been when she applied the tape, either to stop fluids escaping, or to cover the visual horrors of grave wax starting to form on the cheeks, or maybe Caylee's eyes or mouth were open and she couldn't handle dealing with the body without covering her face. The placement of the heart sticker may have been a sort of apology for the use of the tape.

I don't know, I find it very hard to believe that Casey (or anyone really) could stomach placing duct tape over the mouth of a body so far along in the decomposition process. Never mind this being the body of her deceased child. I don't think that the placement of several layers of duct tape can be spun as some sort of necessary evil to prevent further fluids from escaping or to mask the physical horrors of decomposition (really?) both which it seems would have been profound by this time.

 

[KenoshaKid]

She may not have been trying to clean per se - just create a stronger odor to over power what was in her car. Maybe even trying to use anything she thought was a harsh chemical to eat away the stained area in the carpet.

If it had been me, I'd have poured straight bleach on it. There's the chlorine.

 

[treeseeker]

Just a theory here.

If you've ever fried bacon, laid it on paper towels, then stuck the whole plate in the fridge, I think you've probably seen something similar to adipocere. The grease on the paper towels solidified, and there are little bubbles of solid fat on the bacon.

If the decomp on the paper towels remained in a moist, somewhat fluid state, due to the heat in the trunk and the presence of VFAs, they could've contributed to the stench.

Now the question is, was the trash bag was in a climate-controlled environment after taken into evidence, even perhaps refrigerated to stop bio activity, and would those conditions and that length of time be enough to solidify the VFAs on the paper towels?

 

[Shear22]

I don't know, I find it very hard to believe that Casey (or anyone really) could stomach placing duct tape over the mouth of a body so far along in the decomposition process. Never mind this being the body of her deceased child. I don't think that the placement of several layers of duct tape can be spun as some sort of necessary evil to prevent further fluids from escaping or to mask the physical horrors of decomposition (really?) both which it seems would have been profound by this time.

I've never found it believable that KC would use duct tape to stem decomp. That's what the bags were for after all. Why put duct tape over the mouth if you're putting the whole body in a bag? I certainly don't buy it as a preventive measure because if KC had that type of foresight about the decomposition process she never would have ended up with a stinky trunk. Just imagine how different this case would be if she had dumped the body immediately: No squirrels, no pizza, no amscot, no gas cans (ok maybe gas cans, but no preventing GA from getting near her trunk), no tow yard, no 911 call from cindy about "It smells like there's been a dead body...". Yep, KC's probably kicking herself for not dumping the body right away.

 

[Friday]

snipped:

yes I have spilled bleach and it will pull the color out of a carpet.

I'm not sure, but I think that may depend upon the fibers and dyes used for the carpet. I once resorted to using bleach on an off-white carpet to try to remove a bright red stain. The bleach had no effect on the stain or the surrounding carpet. (FWIW, I switched to Ritt Dye Remover which removed the stain completely and very slightly lightened the carpet, too)

 

[impatientredhead]

snipped:



I'm not sure, but I think that may depend upon the fibers and dyes used for the carpet. I once resorted to using bleach on an off-white carpet to try to remove a bright red stain. The bleach had no effect on the stain or the surrounding carpet. (FWIW, I switched to Ritt Dye Remover which removed the stain completely and very slightly lightened the carpet, too)

It also depends entirely on the concentration of the bleach. I use a ten percent bleach to 90% water ratio pretty much all over my house including on my light colored carpet with no color change. I did spray down my laundry baskets with the same mixture forgot I had done it and tossed a burgundy colored robe in the basket, completely ruined. So it really varies.

If she had poured bleach straight of a jug into the trunk I cannot imagine they wouldn't know that for a fact after all the forensics they have done. Bleach is a well documented chemical and has been used in an attempt to clean up many a crime scene.

 

[Marina2]

snipped:



I'm not sure, but I think that may depend upon the fibers and dyes used for the carpet. I once resorted to using bleach on an off-white carpet to try to remove a bright red stain. The bleach had no effect on the stain or the surrounding carpet. (FWIW, I switched to Ritt Dye Remover which removed the stain completely and very slightly lightened the carpet, too)

I spilled bleach on a dark brown carpet once (a lot!) and, to my surprise, it didn't take a bit of the color away. I was lucky for that. The light beige carpet in my car didn't fare so well when I tried to remove a cappuccino stain with bleach. It turned a very light pink color.
It must be as you said, dependant upon the fibers or dyes used.

 

[JWG]

I know I will probably never be able to completely lay to rest the theory that the chloroform came from a combination of cleaning supplies, but since we are nearly in our 40th day of rain up here in CT, I thought I'd give it a shot before I hopped on the ark.
:fish:
Let's talk about bleach. :talker: The odor analysis done by the FBI was pretty thorough in identifying every compound found in the trunk's air. :thumb: Setting aside for now the question as to whether or not bleach would alter the carpet or stain coloration ... if KC used bleach on the trunk stain, one would expect that the constituent compounds of bleach would be detected in the trunk air sample.

The compounds are (from Wikipedia):
sodium hypochlorite ... plus ...
hydrogen peroxide or a peroxide-releasing compound such as:

sodium perborate
sodium percarbonate
sodium persulfate
sodium perphosphate
urea peroxide ... plus ...
​

catalysts and activators, e.g. tetraacetylethylenediamine and/or sodium nonanoyloxybenzenesulfonate.

Looking through the list of chemicals found in the trunk air sample on pages 6570 and 6571, not one of the constituent compounds that make household bleach were found.

Acetone and Toluene. Both are common constituents of nail polish remover. They are also both byproducts of human decomposition and were found in the trunk, so their presence does not prove KC tried to use nail polish remover or some other similar solvent on the stain. Less common ingredients, such as Isopropyl Alcohol and Dibutyl Adipate were not found in the trunk air sample.

IMHO, it would not occur to KC to even think :waitasec: of using a solvent on the stain. Bleach made more sense to me ... as does laundry detergent or even Febreeze, neither of which contain the chemicals necessary to create chloroform.

The paper towels. LE's chemical analysis found VFA's consistent with human and pig decomposition, as well as compounds consistent with marijuana. They did not note any compounds consistent with cleaning fluids. The fact that none were mentioned strongly implies to me none were used.

My personal opinion is that KC first got wind of a trunk odor problem when a facefull of decomp smell surprised her as she opened the trunk to put the empty gas cans in it on the 23rd. :sick: She did nothing about it at that time, and on the 24th had to race George to the car to keep him from noticing.

Sometime between the 24th and the 27th, KC decides she needs an odor alibi :idea: and throws a bag of trash from Tony's in the trunk - just in case. She stops by mom & dad's on the 27th to pick up a few things and ... while she's there decided maybe to see if she can do something about that smelly stain.

Now remember, this is KC we are talking about - the grown woman who left smelly slacks in her car and did not bother washing them. :bang: Lazy KC grabs a few paper towels and dabs at the stain. A little comes up, but by this time most of liquid would have dried out. I can almost hear her thinking to herself "hey, it is pretty much dried out. Maybe it will start going away sometime."

So, having completed her hardest work of the week she tossed the paper towels into the bag and headed back to Tony's. :run: Whistling away as she drove :whistle:, she pats herself on the back and texts Amy to tell her that she took care of that squirrel problem.

 

[impatientredhead]

Excellent post JWG.
I think the papertowel dab was the extent of her clean up as well.
How much cleaning of a trunk would you do before deciding you should pull the carpet out? It would not take me long.

I think the papertowel attempt at cleaning was brief because she is lazy and because the smell would have been horrid. She decides to dump the car instead. She should have set it on fire or sunk it. But again she is lazy.

 

[butwhatif?]

I know I will probably never be able to completely lay to rest the theory that the chloroform came from a combination of cleaning supplies, but since we are nearly in our 40th day of rain up here in CT, I thought I'd give it a shot before I hopped on the ark.
:fish:
Let's talk about bleach. :talker: The odor analysis done by the FBI was pretty thorough in identifying every compound found in the trunk's air. :thumb: Setting aside for now the question as to whether or not bleach would alter the carpet or stain coloration ... if KC used bleach on the trunk stain, one would expect that the constituent compounds of bleach would be detected in the trunk air sample.

The compounds are (from Wikipedia):
sodium hypochlorite ... plus ...
hydrogen peroxide or a peroxide-releasing compound such as:

sodium perborate
sodium percarbonate
sodium persulfate
sodium perphosphate
urea peroxide ... plus ...
​

catalysts and activators, e.g. tetraacetylethylenediamine and/or sodium nonanoyloxybenzenesulfonate.

Looking through the list of chemicals found in the trunk air sample on pages 6570 and 6571, not one of the constituent compounds that make household bleach were found.

Acetone and Toluene. Both are common constituents of nail polish remover. They are also both byproducts of human decomposition and were found in the trunk, so their presence does not prove KC tried to use nail polish remover or some other similar solvent on the stain. Less common ingredients, such as Isopropyl Alcohol and Dibutyl Adipate were not found in the trunk air sample.

IMHO, it would not occur to KC to even think :waitasec: of using a solvent on the stain. Bleach made more sense to me ... as does laundry detergent or even Febreeze, neither of which contain the chemicals necessary to create chloroform.

The paper towels. LE's chemical analysis found VFA's consistent with human and pig decomposition, as well as compounds consistent with marijuana. They did not note any compounds consistent with cleaning fluids. The fact that none were mentioned strongly implies to me none were used.

My personal opinion is that KC first got wind of a trunk odor problem when a facefull of decomp smell surprised her as she opened the trunk to put the empty gas cans in it on the 23rd. :sick: She did nothing about it at that time, and on the 24th had to race George to the car to keep him from noticing.

Sometime between the 24th and the 27th, KC decides she needs an odor alibi :idea: and throws a bag of trash from Tony's in the trunk - just in case. She stops by mom & dad's on the 27th to pick up a few things and ... while she's there decided maybe to see if she can do something about that smelly stain.

Now remember, this is KC we are talking about - the grown woman who left smelly slacks in her car and did not bother washing them. :bang: Lazy KC grabs a few paper towels and dabs at the stain. A little comes up, but by this time most of liquid would have dried out. I can almost hear her thinking to herself "hey, it is pretty much dried out. Maybe it will start going away sometime."

So, having completed her hardest work of the week she tossed the paper towels into the bag and headed back to Tony's. :run: Whistling away as she drove :whistle:, she pats herself on the back and texts Amy to tell her that she took care of that squirrel problem.

I havent been able to bring myself to read the autopsy report yet, but I have followed some of the threads about it.

RE: the paper towels- This is the first time I've seen someone mention that it is also consistent with pig decomposition, as well as human decomp.

We know that there was packaging for deli meats inside the same trash bag. We know that people use paper towel to wipe greasy fingers when cooking or eating.We know that people use paper towels when cooking to soak up the excess fats and oils from meats.
So the question is: does purchased meat with possible additives, decompose the same way as an entire animal? Would the chemical composition be the same?
It seems kinda out there to think that KC would try to clean up decomp fluids with papertowel and then leave them there to be found with all the other trash. Why wouldn't a CSI fanatic know to get rid of dna/decomp evidence along with the body?
And if it was human body fat/decomp, wouldnt they be able to test for DNA?
This has probably been addressed in the docs- so I think its time for me to read them and do some serious research.

 

[Just Jayla]

Now remember, this is KC we are talking about - the grown woman who left smelly slacks in her car and did not bother washing them. :bang: Lazy KC grabs a few paper towels and dabs at the stain. A little comes up, but by this time most of liquid would have dried out. I can almost hear her thinking to herself "hey, it is pretty much dried out. Maybe it will start going away sometime."So, having completed her hardest work of the week she tossed the paper towels into the bag and headed back to Tony's. :run: Whistling away as she drove :whistle:, she pats herself on the back and texts Amy to tell her that she took care of that squirrel problem.[/quote]






JWG Respectfully clipped, and BBM, Very true!

If it were a chemical they kept around the house, I wonder about a brown-out type cleaner. I used to work for a chemical cleaning product distributor, and they carried several brands of products that are mild acidic cleaners for removing tannins out of carpeting (wine stains, coffee etc.) I attached an MSDS from their website:

http://www.daycon.com/msds/TANFORM-msds.pdf

JWG, you are better at these things, clearly, but I still am not seeing any of the chems the FBI found on this MSDS. Still, just working toward something she could have easily grabbed.....

 

[ibyoungr]

Whew.. done catchin' up.. that will teach me to be away on a Friday.

Awesome deduction on the paper-towel dab.

Must say.. why did we not think about that paper towel and possible use before this last release.. we're slipping

The paper towel and THC on the paper towel was my bombshell. However, I should not have been surprised.