2009.07.30 Document Release

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  • #301
Sorry you had that experience ExpectingU...
No I'm not that naive abt LE-was just pointing out that I didn't think LE would use Lie Detector test ONLY as a coercive tool. Seems it would be a waste of time and money.

Particularly since they use it to screen their OWN prospective employees.

AND, they hire, as they say, "the best ploygraphers."

Why would they need a department polygraphers, if it was just a tool for coersion?
 
  • #302
[/B]

BBM Don't forget folks that the Judge could have blocked these documents about Jesse had he felt it was not relevant.

I keep getting the feeling that it is just the opposite - everything that is released is relevant but not crucial to the prosecutions case. Why wouldn't they release convers with JPC and the Hawkins guy, etc.

It just seems to me that the really good evidence is being held back.
 
  • #303
Last time I did the research (maybe 10 years ago?), polygraphs were universally ruled inadmissible in court and, in most studies, were deemed unreliable for actually detecting lies. At a recent seminar I went to, however, a U.S. Attorney said that just from observing an FBI polygraph about a fake crime he felt an overwhelming urge to confess to things just because of the atmosphere--the impressive machinery, the imposing FBI interrogator, etc. His opinion was that FBI polygraphs work by getting people to tell the truth rather than by detecting their lies.

No, I had an experience that was convincing.

At one place where I worked, some money was taken. A polygrapher was brought in. We were all tested. We all came up positive re: theft from the office. Because we all had taken SOMETHING... a pen, maybe.

One woman really HAD never taken anything. Not even a sheet of paper. She couldn't figure out why she came up positive.

Turned out she was a singer, in her private life. She once xeroxed some sheet music on the office machine. She had forgotten.

After remembering that, she was asked whether she had taken anything else. Negative.

BTW-- That being said, I don't think whether the polygraph is effective or not matters. It's about willingness to cooperate w/ LE.

So, the As would have nothing to lose, as MK said, if they took the test.

However, some FBI agents swear by them, and say that it's all about the skill of the polygrapher. Some say they can even reliably test compulsive liars, and sociopaths. They say there is an autonomic endocrinological effect, anyway.

Apparently the polygrapher DOES have to check for rocks or tacks in shoes. One can cheat by pressing a toe down on a sharp object, thus changing the "lie curve."
 
  • #304
Remarkable really that KC can remeber every little tidbit about Zanny, the matress, the videos, the hair straightner, footballs, other children in her care and their parents name but by Gawd KC can't for her own life remember Zanny's phone number.....

OR, and of Zanny's "REAL" addresses!. Even though she had "been to Zanny's to pick up Zanny's insurance papers."
 
  • #305
Bold mine.

BINGO!!!

ETA: Re-read this, and to clarify, IMO, GA and CA refused to take the lie detector test because they were afraid they would be found out as liars, and (IMO) quite possibly one or both had something to do with Caylee's disappearance and/or murder.

To add to the above - I've heard a few posters say before, "keep it simple" or "the simpliest answer is usually the right answer". With that in mind, my comment is that
LIARS DO NOT LIKE TAKING LIE DETECTOR TESTS! :bang:
 
  • #306
I honestly don't think there is going to be any "big reveal" at trial, and no one is going to buy JG doing it. It will be a trial based on circumstantial evidence. JB knows that, this is why there is LK Baden to try to prove the forensics inaccurate and A Lyons to try to avoid death penalty sentence.

It'll be the SP defense.
 
  • #307
I am not sure what this means?

I don't LOVE any documents that provide further details about the horrors Caylee suffered in her last minutes. I don't like reading them at all. Not a bit. I'd like to think that I am not alone in sharing that personal feeling.

I do, on the other hand, read any and all documents that are relevant and pertinent in regards to obtaining some real justice for her unnecessary & untimely demise.

I have a lot of trouble comprehending the need for Caylee's death. In fact, I don't understand any reason for it, at all.

I know we're going to respectfully disagree here on some points, but even if I stretch my imagination way, way, way out there - I still can't fathom how a Mother like the Anthony's perceive Casey to be could allow this to happen?

If Casey was the loving, attentive Mother that we'd be swayed to believe in if we listened solely to Cindy, then this tragedy would not have occurred.

Emotionalism and fervor can't refute that singular fact.

Even if you believe in your soul that SODDI, then it stands to reason that SOD couldn't have done it had the primary care-giver/Mother of the Year been in control of situations she placed Caylee in.

Even if your heart, guts & soul believe that Casey is innocent of Caylee's murder, then it defies any parenting or common-sense logic to defend Casey WITHOUT qualms or doubts -> as to Casey's culpability for placing Caylee in any situation whereby SOD might have murdered Caylee.

It is my firm opinion that even if the SODDI defense somehow squeaks in, that people who love Caylee will still gather their senses and recognize Casey's role and guilt in not protecting Caylee.

(I'll add that this is not what I believe, but point out that even if you believe SODDI, there is just no discernible way that SODDI could have pulled this crime off without negligence on Casey's part.)

We can have a healthy, respectful debate & discussion on varying degrees of guilt, but there isn't a shred of evidence that Casey is lacking in guilt regardless of the accidental, SODDI, or Casey's direct involvement theories.

It is any person's right to believe what degree of guilt Casey bears, but to deny altogether that Casey bears any guilt at all is disturbing.

I've read hundreds, perhaps thousands of posts, and I respect those that still harbour hope that Caylee died by accident.

Yet, I still ponder ... if accidental or SODDI, then is there not still culpability on Casey's part?

There is simply no way to excuse Casey's failure to report the circumstances without Casey bearing some responsibility for guilt.

In any perceived degree.

In any regard.

I respect alternate opinions - I do. I just can't comprehend any scenario in which Casey has no culpability at all.

I do question the perception that any of the posters here on WS 'love' anything about this case.

What's to love?

Again, forgive me for being utterly obtuse, but I need specific direction. I just don't 'get' that anyone here on WS 'loves' anything about the unnecessary loss of Caylee's life.

Sorry, but I have entertained many thoughts, ideas and theories, trying so hard to give the benefit of the doubt, and not a single one points towards Casey lacking in guilt to some degree.

I think, where some posts fail utterly is in the presumption that Casey is entirely innocent.

She absolutely is not - no matter which theory you subscribe to as a personal preference, Casey bears responsibility for not reporting Caylee's death.

Period.

:clap::clap::clap::clap: Very well stated PotatoHead!! You have nicely laid out how all the loopholes in the defense case are closing up. I hope the SA takes a look at posts such as yours and many other brilliant minds on WS.
Thank you!! :blowkiss:
 
  • #308
Like when a two-year-old calls you from an imaginary number, then you call right back, and the number is already "not in service."


Yes...is this even possible if it wasn't a lie? I'd love to know. I am pretty darn sure I already know but would like to hear it from a phone company expert. If a person calls you from a number and you instantly try to call back, could it be "not in service" within a matter of seconds after being "in service"??? :cow:
 
  • #309
Yes, but there are various motions to surpress. Why not Jesse's records? SA didn't bother to try to surpress? Defense sure doesn't want to. SO there you go.


I am wondering if the Grunds feel Jesse has already had so much disparagement cast on him by the A's/defense that they are just going to ride this out and trust that the public has enough info to know that this is all just an attempt to cast suspicion on SOP in order to deflect attention away from KC's guilt. RG seems to have enough faith in God to trust that "karma" and/or "reaping what you sow" will eventually catch up to the A's. In some form, down the road, hopefully JG will be able to get his side of what he has been put through out, and the public will support and sympathize with him. If I were his parent, I would be considering legal action at some point in the future. JMO
 
  • #310
No, I had an experience that was convincing.

At one place where I worked, some money was taken. A polygrapher was brought in. We were all tested. We all came up positive re: theft from the office. Because we all had taken SOMETHING... a pen, maybe.

One woman really HAD never taken anything. Not even a sheet of paper. She couldn't figure out why she came up positive.

Turned out she was a singer, in her private life. She once xeroxed some sheet music on the office machine. She had forgotten.

After remembering that, she was asked whether she had taken anything else. Negative.

BTW-- That being said, I don't think whether the polygraph is effective or not matters. It's about willingness to cooperate w/ LE.

So, the As would have nothing to lose, as MK said, if they took the test.

However, some FBI agents swear by them, and say that it's all about the skill of the polygrapher. Some say they can even reliably test compulsive liars, and sociopaths. They say there is an autonomic endocrinological effect, anyway.

Apparently the polygrapher DOES have to check for rocks or tacks in shoes. One can cheat by pressing a toe down on a sharp object, thus changing the "lie curve."

BBM
:clap::clap: Yes, Brini! That is what it is all about: "willingness to cooperate w/LE" That is very telling IMO. NOT being cooperative at every turn when your granddaughter is missing is just WRONG! I think alongside the facts of the 31 day wait, KC's lies, their lies, and lack of cooperation any average jury will get the picture. All the science evidence is not going to impress the jury as will the basic behaviors of mother & grandparents. :behindbar:
MOO
 
  • #311
yes, a phone can be without service or disconnected within 2 seconds.
the key point is she never received a call from caylee or her phone
records would show receiving it, and police would have tracked down
who's phone it was. she was so used to no one checking out her lies,
she assumed police would believe her every word.
 
  • #312
I am wondering if the Grunds feel Jesse has already had so much disparagement cast on him by the A's/defense that they are just going to ride this out and trust that the public has enough info to know that this is all just an attempt to cast suspicion on SOP in order to deflect attention away from KC's guilt. RG seems to have enough faith in God to trust that "karma" and/or "reaping what you sow" will eventually catch up to the A's. In some form, down the road, hopefully JG will be able to get his side of what he has been put through out, and the public will support and sympathize with him. If I were his parent, I would be considering legal action at some point in the future. JMO

I totally agree with your post Doogie. There is an interview Kathi B. did with Rev. Grund yesterday (it was linked on the current news thread by AngelWhoCares). It was a very good and honest interview. Jesse has had an attorney since CA began to throw him under the bus. Jesse is unable to get employment and now his dad fears with the doc release things won't change for him for a long time. Jesse's name is getting over 90 thousand hits on the internet. I did not sense any anger from his dad but I still wonder if they won't "wait & see" what happens with the trial and then maybe ( I hope) they file a suit against the A's for defamation. They may not want that but I want it for Jesse. I will see if I can find the link.
 
  • #313
I thought you would get a charge at the banner below. I'm feeling CA is the queen Narcissist and KC narcisisst princess as the narcissist feels they are.

Makes me feel sad. Life can be so complicated and for what? God help us.
 
  • #314
Here is the link for the Kathi B - Rev Grund interview:

RAW VIDEO: Richard Grund Talks About Document Impact
Richard Grund, father of Jesse Grund, talked to WFTV about newly released documents. (07/30/09)
http://www.wftv.com/video/20228045/index.html
 
  • #315
Ok here's the reason for no polygraph from the As....Not admissible in court. Why do it if it truely proves nothing? I can link you to a page with a quote by the FBI that states that the polygraph is no more than a co-ersion tactic by LE to get people to talk. There is no scientific proof of it's ability to determine a lie. All is proves is that a person is the nervous type or cold like a fish...that is all. Want the link? Also the fact that others lined up to take on proves nothing conclusive, other than thier butts weren't on the line.

Oh Please (respectively said)...the "others" gave information about pot etc - very personal information - openly gave information, suspected of involvement initially even on here all because they knew KC - IMO a whack job who, along with her family pointed and continue to point a finger of guilt at everyone she knows, ever knew as the person or persons responsible for Caylee's Murder. The butts of these people were on the line to totally clear themselves with LE and Media by any and all means possible.
 
  • #316
As vain as KC is, I'm sure she would have had a flat iron, blow dryer and curling iron and just about every other beauty product they sell at Target.

And...isn't it odd that LE didn't notice an inflatable bed during their searches?

And why would KC carry the inflatable bed in her trunk instead of leaving it at ZG's house? The A's don't think their lies out thoroughly.

:woohoo: Too funny! :woohoo:
 
  • #317
Read some of Jesse's employment records wondering why they had to be dragged out. Impressed with the police dept training program and Jesse's clean record. As far as I'm concerned, they've revealed he's a decent young man. Certainly seems like many employers would want to hire Jesse now.

on a side note...

Jesse, sorry you have been dragged into a huge public case. You probably didn't even know the definition of a Narcissist when you met Casey. You were brought up with spirituality, forgiveness and politeness which always make it easier for the narcissist to "play you". Unfortunately, it is true, if you let a narcissist (and her mother) into your life for any length of time you will be changed and tainted, and you will never be able to completely trust like you did before. The good news is you may be able to spot this type of person and avoid being played again.
 
  • #318
This thread is turning into a General Discussion about everything and anything. Please search out threads already started regarding the various discussion going on, if there is no thread, start one but PLEASE search out for a thread first.

Soon this thread will close down.
 
  • #319
ETA: OOPS just read Pattygs post.If there is another thread this belongs in would someone please move?


Some things struck me as I finally read the FBI interview with CA.I had seen the tape version,but the transcript gives you more time to take it all in.

1. CA ,herself,stated that if there had been an accident KC would have cracked by now and come forward.She said KC would not put the family through this if it had been an accident.

2.That if Caylee had died at someone elses hands KC would not protect anyone else.
Her point was that Caylee was not dead.Still,very telling.

3 In the depo she claimed she had a # for Zanny and thought she gave it to the defense.In this interview she said she remembered she had an address for Zanny.She got it for the police officer.It was on a sticky note in her address book in the kitchen.The address was a Glenwood address.

4.She said she took Casey's bag she used from work and Caylee's babydoll,that was in her carseat,out of the car to air them out.
I know a pocketbook and the babydoll still come up from time to time.

5.When she was trying to convince FBI that Ricardo and Amy might be involved she says "Zanny's the actual first person I was able to reach out to" :eek: She was referring to calling Amy H.,who then helped her find Casey.

6. She said that KC told her she and Caylee were crashing at Zanny's the night of the 14th.
June 14th?So Caylee didn't come home until the day of June 15th.I guess.

7.CA said this conversation went on between GA and the towyard guy Tow guy says,listen,before you come to the car .....my.....they warned my husband it stinks and it's been progressively smelling worse. He said you know it's been progressively worse smelling since it's been here.Um he said it didn't smell great when they picked it up .George said you didn't even have to get close to smell it.
Just prior she mentioned that the trunk had not been opened since it got to the towyard because it was locked and they [ty]didn't have keys.

8.as CA is telling FBI that GA knows what a dead body smells like because he's former LE,she says "He's smelled dead bodies.I've smelled dead bodies being a nurse."
I think here she was almost trying to get LE to confirm it was only trash they were smelling .Might be wrong.

I know most of this is not new,but did strike me that the prosecution can certainly use CA's own arguments against Casey.
Some of these things,like when the towyard noticed the smell,can be laid to rest.They noticed.And babydoll was left in the carseat.Etc.

Comments?
 
  • #320
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