2009.11.06 Forensic Entomology Report Released #2

[butwhatif?]

The Adicpocere is what was infested with coffin flies,inside the bag, where the paper towels were- are you saying there was another dead body in the dumpster that they came from ?

The flies are NOT only attracted to decomposing bodies....

http://doyourownpestcontrol.com/phorid-flies.htm

Any google search will show the same results.

Do not search for 'coffin flies'- as that term is a laymans term specific to decaying bodies. When you google humpback fly or phorid fly you will see just how common they are in trash, and many other places.
There only needs to be remnants of food or moisture to attract them. Even a few drops left in a soda can can attract them.And we know there were soda cans in the trash.
The report about the 'coffin flies' states that they can be attracted to other sources (P10,458)

"It should be noted that this species can also be found on decaying organic matter from other sources".

.. In fact he notes this twice....so it is nothing more than a posibility that it was human decomp that attracted them to the trash/trunk.

I think the defence will jump on the (mis)leading term 'coffin flies'. (why not use the other laymans term humpback fly?) I feel the same will happen with the term 'grave wax' being used regarding the paper towels. Keep in mind that report stated it appeared to be 'like adipocere (gravewax)'. When you google the fatty acids that led them to this conclusion, again you can see that they are not exclusive to adipocere/ gravewax/ human decomp.

I'm not saying it wasn't human decomp that attracted them, but just trying to pre-empt what the def will use to refute these reports, and it wont be a difficult task for them, imo.
JMO

 

[Jolynna]

Bugs and bug remains were found in BOTH the trunk AND in the trash bag according to the Forensic Entomology Report. The report is written in a kind of confusing manner and there was more than one collection of bugs sent to Dr. Haskell. Some of those bugs were subsequently sent to Dr. Brown, an entomologist specializing in specific species of "coffin flies'.

In a nutshell, coffin flies were seen by OSCO when the Pontiac was opened by OSCO on July 16, 2008. Samples of eggs & maggots (baby coffin flies) were collected and sent to Dr. Haskell in Sept. To narrow the species of fly down to the kind that prefers carrion, Dr. Haskell said he needed adult flies. OSCO went back to the car trunk and looked for adult flies. There weren't any.

Then Vincent remembered he had seen HUNDREDS of eggs and maggots in the trash bag that had been sealed up since August. Under those conditions eggs and maggots would continue to develop. So OSCO collected bugs again, this time from the trash bag. Those were sent to Dr. Haskell who was able to extract 15 adults. Some adult flies were sent with maggots,eggs & cases to Dr. Brown. Dr. Brown identified the flies as a speces of "coffin fly" that prefers animal carrion. it's the most common species of "coffin fly" found on decomposing people.

Anyway, pages 1 & 7 of the Forensic Entomology Report specifically say larvae, puparia and "some" adult flies were found in the Pontiac trunk and in the white trash bag with blue handles. http://www.clickorlando.com/download/2009/1106/21539770.pdf According to the report, that particular species of fly, in the numbers found, indicates the presence of decomposition.

 

[Jolynna]

The flies are NOT only attracted to decomposing bodies....

http://doyourownpestcontrol.com/phorid-flies.htm

Any google search will show the same results.

Do not search for 'coffin flies'- as that term is a laymans term specific to decaying bodies. When you google humpback fly or phorid fly you will see just how common they are in trash, and many other places.
There only needs to be remnants of food or moisture to attract them. Even a few drops left in a soda can can attract them.And we know there were soda cans in the trash.
The report about the 'coffin flies' states that they can be attracted to other sources (P10,458)
.. In fact he notes this twice....so it is nothing more than a posibility that it was human decomp that attracted them to the trash/trunk.

I think the defence will jump on the (mis)leading term 'coffin flies'. (why not use the other laymans term humpback fly?) I feel the same will happen with the term 'grave wax' being used regarding the paper towels. Keep in mind that report stated it appeared to be 'like adipocere (gravewax)'. When you google the fatty acids that led them to this conclusion, again you can see that they are not exclusive to adipocere/ gravewax/ human decomp.

I'm not saying it wasn't human decomp that attracted them, but just trying to pre-empt what the def will use to refute these reports, and it wont be a difficult task for them, imo.
JMO

The adult coffin flies were identified as a specific species of coffin fly...the kind most attracted to decomposing carrion (rotting meat). That is why in the e-mails between OSCO and The Body Farm, OSCO was asked whether or not any meat was found in the garbage. No meat was found.

The importance of "coffin flies" to the case isn't because one of these flies was found. The amount of those flies and the degree of colonization also factor in. In some stages of life some species of flies require protein. The particular fly that was in KC's trunk and trash is MOST attracted to putrefied (and especially gooey) remains. In this case, according to the Forensic Entomology Report, HUNDREDS of the maggots, eggs, cases (cocoons) along with some adults were found. Those numbers and the degree of colonization are significant.

 

[Jolynna]

i wonder if she was buried by the pool first.. and thats where the coffin flies came from.. THEN after the body was put in the trunk.. they got in there... then after she was removed from the trunk, the coffin flies remaining in the trunk went after the paper towels?

IIRC, there was one small (size of a hand) spot of disturbed dirt in the Anthony backyard that went down about 12 inches. I think digging was harder than KC had expected.

If Caylee had been put outside under just a few inches of dirt, blow flies and house flies would have gotten on her and ended up as part of the fly colony found in KC's trunk. The lack of blow flies is as important as the presence of coffin flies.

 

[butwhatif?]

The adult coffin flies were identified as a specific species of coffin fly...the kind most attracted to decomposing carrion (rotting meat). That is why in the e-mails between OSCO and The Body Farm, OSCO was asked whether or not any meat was found in the garbage. No meat was found.

The importance of "coffin flies" to the case isn't because one of these flies was found. The amount of those flies and the degree of colonization also factor in. That particular fly is MOST attracted to putrefied (and especially gooey) remains. In this case, according to the Forensic Entomology Report, HUNDREDS of the maggots, eggs, cases (cocoons) along with some adults were found. Those numbers and the degree of colonization are significant.

The key word in your post being MOST attracted- not exclusively attracted. Just pointing out that the same report stated that this species can be attracted to other organic decaying matter.
And far as I understand the amount of them may not be as significant as we think since one adult can produce hundreds of thousands, and even millions of offspring in a fairly short time period regardless of their food source.
While no meat was found in the trash, there were deli meat packages in there along with other items that may have attracted them.
Just playing devils advocate as usual and weighing up all of the facts stated in the report. We can't accept parts of the report and dismiss others.
Am so hoping we get to learn what was inside these little critters to know exactly what they were feeding off.
JMO

 

[steadychick]

Like butwhatif?, I'm anxiously awaiting the results of what those flies and maggots were eating. Is is still possible that Caylee's DNA could be found in these insects? Is it likely? Could one of scientific wizards weigh in about this?

 

[Jolynna]

The key word in your post being MOST attracted- not exclusively attracted. Just pointing out that the same report stated that this species can be attracted to other organic decaying matter.
And far as I understand the amount of them may not be as significant as we think since one adult can produce hundreds of thousands, and even millions of offspring in a fairly short time period regardless of their food source.
While no meat was found in the trash, there were deli meat packages in there along with other items that may have attracted them.
Just playing devils advocate as usual and weighing up all of the facts stated in the report. We can't accept parts of the report and dismiss others.
Am so hoping we get to learn what was inside these little critters to know exactly what they were feeding off.
JMO

I don't discount a single word of that report.I have the ultimate respect for Dr. Haskell. His reputation is impeccable. He IS the ultimate bugs and murder expert.

Dr. Haskell didn't just examine the samples sent to him, he went to Orlando and personally went over the car trunk, the garbage and the left/right side of the trunk liner and spare tire cover. (page 43 http://www.wesh.com/download/2009/0121/18530363.pdf) If there was ANYTHING that would have attracted that species of fly, in those numbers the report would not have said what it did.

The list of trash includes NOTHING that would have made KC's car trunk reek months after the trash was removed from the trunk. Certainly an empty Oscar Meyer salami package wouldn't do it. (Inventory of Trash in vehicle: http://www.wftv.com/pdf/20321119/detail.html) (Pictures of garbage: http://www.wftv.com/slideshow/news/20320624/detail.html)

 

[butwhatif?]

I don't discount a single word of that report.I have the ultimate respect for Dr. Haskell. His reputation is impeccable. He IS the ultimate bugs and murder expert.

Dr. Haskell didn't just examine the samples sent to him, he went to Orlando and personally went over the car trunk, the garbage and the left/right side of the trunk liner and spare tire cover. (page 43 http://www.wesh.com/download/2009/0121/18530363.pdf) If there was ANYTHING that would have attracted that species of fly, in those numbers the report would not have said what it did.

The list of trash includes NOTHING that would have made KC's car trunk reek months after the trash was removed from the trunk. Certainly an empty Oscar Meyer salami package wouldn't do it. (Inventory of Trash in vehicle: http://www.wftv.com/pdf/20321119/detail.html) (Pictures of garbage: http://www.wftv.com/slideshow/news/20320624/detail.html)

Sorry...I'm just confused since the possibility of this species feeding off of decaying matter from other biological sources is straght from Haskells report. In the very same paragraph you mentioned earlier.

 

[treeseeker]

There was a large "botanical" in the trunk trash bag, and plant material on the paper towel. A vegetable or piece of fruit?

Rotting botanicals do not create adipocere to my knowledge, but is important to note a probable food item was in the bag.

pg. 10456:
http://www.clickorlando.com/download/2009/1106/21539770.pdf

 

[Just Jayla]

i wonder if she was buried by the pool first.. and thats where the coffin flies came from.. THEN after the body was put in the trunk.. they got in there... then after she was removed from the trunk, the coffin flies remaining in the trunk went after the paper towels?

Sorry to be like a broken records, cause I have mentioned this before, but maybe in the sandbox? If she were under the sand with the top closed, houseflies/fruitflies would not burrow underneath of sand, I don't think-Anyway, there was a bag of "play sand" found at the remains site-See chain of evidence from this most recent dump.
CA said the sandbox was rarely used because of the mess (translation of CA language could mean she is lying and trying to steer LE away from the sandbox, or she is telling the truth, and either way it makes the sandbox a good thing to check.) The dogs also hit between the sandbox and the playhouse.

 

[Jolynna]

Sorry...I'm just confused since the possibility of this species feeding off of decaying matter from other biological sources is straght from Haskells report. In the very same paragraph you mentioned earlier.

The smell matters.

According to Neal Haskell, "Even after nearly 6 months of time passing and with the trunk carpet lining removed, strong decompositional odor was still present." The trash had been out of the trunk for months too.

Dr. Haskell determined that "the presence of large numbers of larvae, puparia, and some adults of Diptera: Phoridae; Megaselia scalaris a species of scuttle fly/coffin fly recovered from the trunk of the Pontiac Sunbird and from the inside of the white plastic trash bag with blue handles indicates the presence of sufficient decompositional material to attract significant numbers of this species."

Dr. Haskell has smelled many a dead body. He said the decomposition smell was strong. We've all smelled empty Oscar meyer plastic containers and velveeta foils. No way would an empty Oscar Meyer plastic container and empty velveeta foil reek like a putrid body.
imo

 

[Jolynna]

Sorry to be like a broken records, cause I have mentioned this before, but maybe in the sandbox? If she were under the sand with the top closed, houseflies/fruitflies would not burrow underneath of sand, I don't think-Anyway, there was a bag of "play sand" found at the remains site-See chain of evidence from this most recent dump.
CA said the sandbox was rarely used because of the mess (translation of CA language could mean she is lying and trying to steer LE away from the sandbox, or she is telling the truth, and either way it makes the sandbox a good thing to check.) The dogs also hit between the sandbox and the playhouse.

I don't think blow flies could get into the sandbox if the lid was closed.

 

[mitzi]

Well add to that his desperate prayer as he opened the car "Please don't let this be Caylee or Casey". He knew it was a dead body. No pizza was mentioned in that prayer.

Now, I could swear that George prayed, "please don't let this be my pepperoni and cheese." LOL :crazy:

 

[RubyB]

http://www.cfnews13.com/uploadedFiles/Burch Simon-0724.pdf

link to Simon Burch interview with LE in which he states that when he and GA opened up the trunk, "...there was flies and stuff and a real bad smell, like oh my God."
Begin end of pdf page 7, quote is line 1 page 8

IIRC at one time GA even made the remark that he could hear the maggots munching they were that loud (many)

George said in his early August 2009 depo w/the SAO that it sounded like "hamburger on a skillet".

 

[The Eunice Burns]

George said in his early August 2009 depo w/the SAO that it sounded like "hamburger on a skillet".

That is horrific.

 

[MD MOMMY]

I've never read anything concrete about the stain in the trunk..did I miss something? Dr. H says something to the effect of, in addition to the decomp fluids on the carpet the the paper towels would have been another source for attracting the flies.. I'm lost about the trunk stain apparently.

 

[Imbackon]

Like butwhatif?, I'm anxiously awaiting the results of what those flies and maggots were eating. Is is still possible that Caylee's DNA could be found in these insects? Is it likely? Could one of scientific wizards weigh in about this?

I would like to know this answer as well.
My instinct is to say no becuase I think enzymes in bug saliva or whatever would probably break it down. I don't think dna in itself is that resiliant. That's why a simple wipe with a cleaning product can destroy it.

 

[Harmony 2]

There was a large "botanical" in the trunk trash bag, and plant material on the paper towel. A vegetable or piece of fruit?

Rotting botanicals do not create adipocere to my knowledge, but is important to note a probable food item was in the bag.

pg. 10456:
http://www.clickorlando.com/download/2009/1106/21539770.pdf

I interpret botanicals to be plants and I am not sure if corpse fauna would feed on it or be attracted to it.

bo•tan•i•cal (b -t n -k l) also bo•tan•ic (-t n k)
adj.
1. Of or relating to plants or plant life.


http://www.thefreedictionary.com/botanical


Note there was also dirt residue and soil found in the trunk. (Note: Dirt samples and dirt residue from trunk- Q14, Q15, Q17
http://media.myfoxorlando.com/photo...eports-car-trunk/1/lg/11208-11280_Page_05.htm

I think the botanicals tie into the following Email Lizzysf posted in the other thread:

-----Original Message-----
From: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 8:31 AM
To: Vincent, Michael (OCSO)
Subject: RE: **Exempt**

Mike, I try very hard not to second-guess people since I am well aware that I know very little of what is really going on in an investigation, but I think the early release of the chloroform data was a mistake. Since I am saying nothing to anyone outside my group, I am now getting criticized for other reasons and feel that it might be time to back away from this work. I will of course get the next report out to you and Yuri as promised as soon as I can. On a final note, some of the products we have seen include Pinene and Limonene. This could point to a (possibly) shallow marshy area with decaying vegetation. Is there such an area anywhere near where the car was found? Is it possible to get a topo map of the area? Would it be possible to speak to the individual leading the search from Necrosearch? Arpad

Arpad A. Vass, Ph.D


When Casey borrowed the shovel she may have attempted to dig at the remains site and given up because it was too much work and would take too long with the risk of being seen. Botanicals may have adhered to the shovel blade and been transferred to the trunk, releasing the pinenes and limonenes. The botanicals could have remained there and when Casey was wiping the liner with the napkins residue from the plant got on the napkins then the napkins were placed in the trash bag. The botanicals must have been on the trunk carpet because not listed as items found in trash bag. http://www.wftv.com/pdf/20321119/detail.html


The day the shovel was borrowed Casey may have moved the plastic pool storage container over to the pool to rinse the shovel. In her attempt the shovel may have fallen in so she may have put the pool ladder on to retrieve it. This would jive with Cindy's account to a coworker about someone coming into the backyard and using the pool. Also explains the story Casey told Tracy.

 

[ronstet]

Like butwhatif?, I'm anxiously awaiting the results of what those flies and maggots were eating. Is is still possible that Caylee's DNA could be found in these insects? Is it likely? Could one of scientific wizards weigh in about this?

Hope this helps
http://www.astm.org/JOURNALS/FORENSIC/PAGES/JFS2003266.htm

 

[Imbackon]

Hope this helps
http://www.astm.org/JOURNALS/FORENSIC/PAGES/JFS2003266.htm

That's a yes then.
thanks so much ronstet for bringing this out, very helpful.