2009.11.06 Forensic Entomology Report Released #2

[treeseeker]

All kinds of flies can get in and out of sealed or tied up trash bags. I've posted links previously showing that even blow flies can manage to get into tie twisted closed trash bags. Coffin flies have burrowed through several feet of dirt and into coffins. They'd be in and out of and between the trash bags at will.

I've read that about coffin flies, creepy. But these flies prefer advanced decomp, at least 4 or more days per Dr. Haskell. The trunk evidence doesn't indicate advanced decomp - it indicates 0.7 -2.6 days (IIRC). The only evidence of advanced decomp is the adipocere on the towels. This same substance was not found on the trunk liner. If there was a spill, it was outside of the trunk.

There was also very little blow fly activity, if I read correctly, indicating the body wasn't exposed or attractive to them for long. IMO this indicates the body was bagged quickly, which also accelerated decomp.

 

[Eidetic]

http://gryphonscry.wordpress.com/2009/03/19/body-farm/

THE FIVE STAGES OF DECOMPOSITION

1.Fresh – Usually the stage when a police officer or medical examiner sees a body for the first time. During this stage, the body loses color due to cell death. Lividity, the pooling of blood inside the body, occurs and rigor mortis, the stiffening of muscles after death (from Latin for “stiffness” + “death”), sets in.
2.Discoloration – The skin takes on a greenish tinge from bacterial activity, and from molds and fungi growing on the body.
3.Bloating – All the gasses released from the dying cells cause swelling in the body.
4.Advanced Decomposition/Initial Skeletonization – All the fluids that were building up in the body begin to exit. They exit through the same places that they would if the body were still alive – the pores and other body openings, such as the mouth, nose, and anus. “One common misconception is that a body can burst in this phase,” says Wilson, “but that’s not true. A body, if left alone in this state, will not burst. It will simply deflate like an empty vacuum cleaner bag.”
5.Skeletonization – Very little soft tissue is left on the bones. Only the skeleton remains. B.D.

 

[Eidetic]

From what I could gather reading the report, the evidence points to Caylee being at stage three.

 

[ZsaZsa]

http://gryphonscry.wordpress.com/2009/03/19/body-farm/

THE FIVE STAGES OF DECOMPOSITION

1.Fresh – Usually the stage when a police officer or medical examiner sees a body for the first time. During this stage, the body loses color due to cell death. Lividity, the pooling of blood inside the body, occurs and rigor mortis, the stiffening of muscles after death (from Latin for “stiffness” + “death”), sets in.
2.Discoloration – The skin takes on a greenish tinge from bacterial activity, and from molds and fungi growing on the body.
3.Bloating – All the gasses released from the dying cells cause swelling in the body.
4.Advanced Decomposition/Initial Skeletonization – All the fluids that were building up in the body begin to exit. They exit through the same places that they would if the body were still alive – the pores and other body openings, such as the mouth, nose, and anus. “One common misconception is that a body can burst in this phase,” says Wilson, “but that’s not true. A body, if left alone in this state, will not burst. It will simply deflate like an empty vacuum cleaner bag.”
5.Skeletonization – Very little soft tissue is left on the bones. Only the skeleton remains. B.D.

Oh dear. I am not squeamish but I don't think I could have been a Pathologist.

 

[Eidetic]

Great post, thedevilsadvocate. Re: the sentence I bolded - I don't think he really CAN say its human because that's not his area of expertise. His job is just to state the bug facts.

Great post but just to get the facts out there, cadaver dogs are trained to pick up on the scent of decomposing human bodies as opposed to other mammals.
Cadaver dogs in addition to hitting in the Anthonys backyard, hit on Casey Anthonys trunk.

 

[ZsaZsa]

Great post but just to get the facts out there, cadaver dogs are trained to pick up on the scent of decomposing human bodies as opposed to other mammals.
Cadaver dogs in addition to hitting in the Anthonys backyard, hit on Casey Anthonys trunk.

I wonder if they let the dogs sniff the white trash bag? Yuri Melich had it by then....hmmm

 

[Jolynna]

I've read that about coffin flies, creepy. But these flies prefer advanced decomp, at least 4 or more days per Dr. Haskell. The trunk evidence doesn't indicate advanced decomp - it indicates 0.7 -2.6 days (IIRC). The only evidence of advanced decomp is the adipocere on the towels. This same substance was not found on the trunk liner. If there was a spill, it was outside of the trunk.

There was also very little blow fly activity, if I read correctly, indicating the body wasn't exposed or attractive to them for long. IMO this indicates the body was bagged quickly, which also accelerated decomp.

i 100% agree that Caylee was bagged quickly. There were no trunk carpet fibers in the hair mass. The bacteria necessary for adipocere requires an anaerobic environment. The plastic bags would accelerate putrefaction. The no blow flies in the trunk means Caylee was either in the trunk while alive or just after death...because blow flies can get into tied trash bags.

I'm not so sure there wasn't a spill from the bags into the trunk. Even in December, six months after the trash was removed the Pontiac trunk, Dr. Haskell said there was a strong smell of decomposition.

 

[ynotdivein]

i 100% agree that Caylee was bagged quickly. There were no trunk carpet fibers in the hair mass. The bacteria necessary for adipocere requires an anaerobic environment. No blow flies in the trunk (meaning Caylee was either in the trunk while alive or just after death...blow flies can get into tied trash bags.)

I'm not so sure there wasn't a spill from the bags into the trunk. Even in December, six months after the trash was removed the Pontiac trunk, Dr. Haskell said there was a strong smell of decomposition.

BBM

I am hovering around a theory here... bear with me:

-Caylee was initially wrapped in a blanket, perhaps taken to backyard for attempted burial (but why do that if she was kidnapped by the nannitor???)
-Something triggers KC to move Caylee from blanket to bag, which starts the anaerobic decomposition. What triggered that? IMO, if she took Caylee wrapped in the blanket out of trunk to try to bury her, then realized burial was impossible, or would take too long, she could have carried her back to the trunk more easily by putting her and the blanket into a trash bag. This would preclude trunk carpet fibers in the hair.
-The trunk stain comes from a leak from the bag as decomp progressed, or
-The trunk stain comes from her loading the bag into the trunk, then manipulating it into the laundry bag inside the trunk, causing a spill.

An earlier poster (or maybe on a different thread, my head is spinning!) suggested that maybe the paper towels were used to wipe hands rather than trunk floor.

 

[ZsaZsa]

i 100% agree that Caylee was bagged quickly. There were no trunk carpet fibers in the hair mass. The bacteria necessary for adipocere requires an anaerobic environment. The plastic bags would accelerate putrefaction. The no blow flies in the trunk means Caylee was either in the trunk while alive or just after death...because blow flies can get into tied trash bags.

I'm not so sure there wasn't a spill from the bags into the trunk. Even in December, six months after the trash was removed the Pontiac trunk, Dr. Haskell said there was a strong smell of decomposition.

On page 7 of Dr Haskell's report he states that there was decompositional fluid on the carpet in the trunk...

 

[Jolynna]

no

BBM

I am hovering around a theory here... bear with me:

-Caylee was initially wrapped in a blanket, perhaps taken to backyard for attempted burial (but why do that if she was kidnapped by the nannitor???)
-Something triggers KC to move Caylee from blanket to bag, which starts the anaerobic decomposition. What triggered that? IMO, if she took Caylee wrapped in the blanket out of trunk to try to bury her, then realized burial was impossible, or would take too long, she could have carried her back to the trunk more easily by putting her and the blanket into a trash bag. This would preclude trunk carpet fibers in the hair.
-The trunk stain comes from a leak from the bag as decomp progressed, or
-The trunk stain comes from her loading the bag into the trunk, then manipulating it into the laundry bag inside the trunk, causing a spill.

An earlier poster (or maybe on a different thread, my head is spinning!) suggested that maybe the paper towels were used to wipe hands rather than trunk floor.

Because of the cadaver dog hits in the backyard I used to think Caylee was initially put in the sandbox or under the playhouse.

I changed my mind when I heard JB throwing a fit at a hearing because the defense hadn't received anything from the entomologist. Wondering what that was all about I looked up Dr. Haskell and read about a previous case where Dr. Haskell was the star witness (the Brookey West case). There were enough similarities between the West and Anthony cases that I've been posting for over a month about blow flies and coffin flies.

Anyway...sblow flies can get into tied up just about any way trash bags but not into car trunks. If Caylee had been out in the backyard for any length of time, even in a tied trash bag, blow flies would have laid eggs on her. After Caylee was put into the trunk the blow fly eggs would have hatched and become maggots and eventually adult blow flies who would leave behind cases (the cocoons from which they hatched). There weren't blow fly pupa or cases found with the what was wiped on the napkins or anywhere in the trunk. There were only various stages of coffin flies. Coffin flies COULD wedge into a car trunk the same way they crawl into coffins.

Now I think the cadaver dogs hit in the backyard because something from the trunk had been set there. I also think KC stuck Caylee into a bag and into the trunk as quickly as she could so she wouldn't have to think about or see what she had done.

 

[treeseeker]

i 100% agree that Caylee was bagged quickly. There were no trunk carpet fibers in the hair mass. The bacteria necessary for adipocere requires an anaerobic environment. The plastic bags would accelerate putrefaction. The no blow flies in the trunk means Caylee was either in the trunk while alive or just after death...because blow flies can get into tied trash bags.

I'm not so sure there wasn't a spill from the bags into the trunk. Even in December, six months after the trash was removed the Pontiac trunk, Dr. Haskell said there was a strong smell of decomposition.

I don't know if/how to reconcile that there were several VFA's detected on the towels, but only two detected in the trunk: butyric acid, found on the trunk liner; and acetic acid, found in the tire well. Butyric acid is present with very early decomp, and wasn't on the towels. Dr. Vass associates the acetic acid with the chloroform.

 

[Tuffy]

I don't know if/how to reconcile that there were several VFA's detected on the towels, but only two detected in the trunk: butyric acid, found on the trunk liner; and acetic acid, found in the tire well. Butyric acid is present with very early decomp, and wasn't on the towels. Dr. Vass associates the acetic acid with the chloroform.

So the towels have decomp from later on? Then the towels weren't used to clean the car. So they were used to clean something else later...

 

[treeseeker]

So the towels have decomp from later on? Then the towels weren't used to clean the car. So they were used to clean something else later...

If I'm interpreting correctly, yes - the towel substance is consistent with later decomp that what was found in the trunk.

IMO, those towels probably smelled pretty bad, and they were in the trunk, closed up, for nearly a month. They are probably largely responsible for the smell permeating the car as it has.

 

[Tuffy]

If I'm interpreting correctly, yes - the towel substance is consistent with later decomp that what was found in the trunk.

IMO, those towels probably smelled pretty bad, and they were in the trunk, closed up, for nearly a month. They are probably largely responsible for the smell permeating the car as it has.

I saw earlier that a poster suggested the towels were used by Casey to wipe her hands. I think that's a possibility. I've always thought the idea of using a couple of paper towels to clean up decomp and grave wax was a bit off.

I may be wrong, it just seemed an odd choice. The more I think about it, the more I think the towels were used to wipe something else (not the trunk carpet.)

 

[treeseeker]

I saw earlier that a poster suggested the towels were used by Casey to wipe her hands. I think that's a possibility. I've always thought the idea of using a couple of paper towels to clean up decomp and grave wax was a bit off.

I may be wrong, it just seemed an odd choice. The more I think about it, the more I think the towels were used to wipe something else (not the trunk carpet.)

Maybe OT here, but can you even imagine this scenario? I won't type the gory details, but dealing with your dead child's body in the state the evidence suggests? and then living on like nothing is wrong? I don't think sociopathy adequately explains this.

 

[Jolynna]

So the towels have decomp from later on? Then the towels weren't used to clean the car. So they were used to clean something else later...

You have to factor in that white plastic bag. Caylee, the two black bags and the laundry bag were disposed of on Suburban in June. The decomposition on the Pontiac trunk carpet wouldn't break down & fester the same way as decomposition in a plastic bag. The environments wouldn't be the same.

Plastic bags hold in moisture. DNA degrades faster if put directly in a plastic bag. Caylee bloated and reached the putrid stage faster because she was in a plastic bag than if she just been in the trunk. Just like bodies out in the open that are not clothed skeletonize faster than ones that are...all of the environment, including the plastic bag, matters.

In this case, I think the white plastic bag may have kept decomposition more intact than those that dried out (or were cleaned up by the 'rents). Adipocere, like mummification is a form of preservation. The bacteria needed to make adipocere thrives where there is NO oxygen. So you'd most expect to find adipocere in the decomposition in the bag because that is where oxygen was most cut off.

 

[Tuffy]

You have to factor in that white plastic bag. Caylee, the two black bags and the laundry bag were disposed of on Suburban in June. The decomposition on the Pontiac trunk carpet wouldn't break down & fester the same way as decomposition in a plastic bag. The environments wouldn't be the same.

Plastic bags hold in moisture. DNA degrades faster if put directly in a plastic bag. Caylee bloated and reached the putrid stage faster because she was in a plastic bag than if she just been in the trunk. Just like bodies out in the open that are not clothed skeletonize faster than ones that are...all of the environment, including the plastic bag, matters.

In this case, I think while the white plastic bag may have kept some of the body fluids more intact. Adipocere, like mummification is a form of preservation. The bacteria needed to make adipocere thrives where there is NO OXYGEN. So you'd most expect to find adipocere in the decomposition in the bag because that is where oxygen was most cut off.

Thanks, Jolynna. My original thought may have been flawed then. I was thinking: clean paper towel used to wipe up old adipocere. I hadn't taken into account that there would be further decomposition on the paper towel.

Does that make sense?

 

[Tuffy]

Maybe OT here, but can you even imagine this scenario? I won't type the gory details, but dealing with your dead child's body in the state the evidence suggests? and then living on like nothing is wrong? I don't think sociopathy adequately explains this.

My thoughts exactly as we discuss this. Any decomposing body would be horrifying, but then factor in that the decomposing body is your child? How, just how?

 

[Just Jayla]

I saw earlier that a poster suggested the towels were used by Casey to wipe her hands. I think that's a possibility. I've always thought the idea of using a couple of paper towels to clean up decomp and grave wax was a bit off.

I may be wrong, it just seemed an odd choice. The more I think about it, the more I think the towels were used to wipe something else (not the trunk carpet.)

This would make sense because of the THC residue found-THC is very resinous, it would stick around perhaps even after a shower, or under her nails if she had been handling marijuana the day before at TL's (where she was all day on Sunday).
Or, as a poster suggested earlier, maybe the stains on the towel were bong water, but I think the stains gave indications of something else under alternative light sources.
Not to get off track, I do think she could have wiped this from her hands, but then another poster reminds us that the decomp matter on the towels was later stage....Would adipocere or decomp fluid continue the process of decomp without a host body/on the towels?

ETA-I just noticed I am way off topic, that this is the entomology thread ----Sorry!!

 

[RR0004]

From what I could gather reading the report, the evidence points to Caylee being at stage three.

...and yet I thought I read in the reports that she wasn't at the "bloating stage"...and I think they explained why she wouldn't be...gosh, I just may have to go back in the dark hole.