2010.02.16 Document Release: Stain on Trunk Liner

[Harmony 2]

Weight is 30 lbs
Height is 37"

I thought the question was how tall Caylee was, sorry.

No need to be sorry that was the question, I just added the weight as additional information since I found it on the missing poster.

 

[ynotdivein]

Eidetic, great job!! I hope you don't mind that I snipped your post and kept only this one photo. I wanted to see it along with the one that has the stain in the backing. I find it odd that the big stain in the rounded section does not show up with your color saturation and tint up.

Me too, Harmony2! Thanks for doing this. I am wondering... was the stain on the top/carpet side of that piece so fresh or heavy that whoever may have cleaned the trunk :angel: actually used more cleaning liquid there (hence heavy salt ring on bottom side but relatively clean topside), whereas the "drag marks" along the top left side of liner came from someone leaning in, dragging a semi-leaking bag fairly quickly so as to avoid being caught or getting spilled on, and therefore leaving less-concentrated and less-soaked-in stains on top of carpet, that were less visible to the untrained car-cleaner's :angel: eye, but which may fluoresce better under forensic examination?

Might as well mention that I seem to see a marking about midway down the stain on the carpet side of the liner (i.e., would be middle of bumper side of trunk if you were standing at back of car looking into open trunk) which is remarkably similar to what might be made by a wet-vac using that 3-4 inch wide, flat nozzle ending... :waitasec:

 

[Eidetic]

Eidetic, great job!! I hope you don't mind that I snipped your post and kept only this one photo. I wanted to see it along with the one that has the stain in the backing. I find it odd that the big stain in the rounded section does not show up with your color saturation and tint up.

You're right Harmony! :waitasec:
It does seem to match up with the other strange stain where they took their strip of square samples.

Maybe the large half circular stain, had seeped through around the edges and the cardboard material of the cover sopped it up as it collected so it didn't really appear on the carpet surface on top of the spare wheel?

Another thing, I suppose it could appear to be the outline of a child in the pic with the color settings messed with on the spare tire cover. :crazy:

But that would mean Caylee's body was towards the left side in the trunk towards the brake light. I am rethinking Caylee being in the back of the trunk the more I think about the effort to maneuver the dead weight :sick:

 

[Eidetic]

] he did mention that the following WERE in said trunk when they brought the Pontiac home from Amscot:

- collapsible blue crate (did I miss LE photo evidence of this somewhere?)
- diaper bag in trunk...? or back seat? or another one of KC's... or Caylee's? backpacks... no monkeys, all white.

Respectfully snipped by me.

 

[butterfly1978]

Maybe that shop vac that LE took from the Ant's home is somehow related to what the prosecution wants to talk to JS about in their private meeting. Perhaps, someone tried to clean the trunk, and then emptied the dirty decomp water in the backyard. It would explain the cadaver dogs hitting on certain items in the yard. JMO

You know as far as I can remember we have not had any doc dumps about the results of the vaccums. I remember seeing the video of them taking them in but havent seen the results, or have I over looked them.

 

[ynotdivein]

I am rethinking Caylee being in the back of the trunk the more I think about the effort to maneuver the dead weight :sick:

Eidetic, can you elucidate about your thoughts here, because this is exactly what I am struggling with. Here's where I am currently and by NO means conclusively:

1. KC is right-handed.

2. Caylee may have been merely limp when she was maneuvered into the trunk. That would have made moving/shoving her easier.

3. I have not been able to substantiate Caylee's positioning within the garbage bags and then the laundry bag yet. But, thinking practically, the handles/open side of laundry bag (outermost bag) would have been where a right handed person grabbed with their dominant hand to move said fairly heavy bag. Pick up with right hand, support bottom end with left, heave into trunk. Roll toward back of trunk. Baby now in left rear of trunk facing interior space of car. Question--is baby's head near top of laundry bag/center of car, or at bottom of bag/driver's side of car? IOW, is baby lying on her left or right side?

4. Caylee is in trunk long enough that when perp decides it's time to move her, there is a spill in the back of the trunk, out of the top/handle side of laundry bag and pooling over the spare tire space, which causes a stain significant enough to seep through and mar even the backing of the spare-tire-well liner over the next several weeks before discovery by GA/CA. Spill caused by perp leaning in, grabbing left-side end of bag so as to scoot whole thing forward so that dominant right hand can grab handles on laundry bag and better maneuver the whole thing out. Spill unnerves perp immensely. There is some attempt to mitigate results of this spill by perp at this time or before Amscot dump. This spill settles into the depression in the spare-tire-covering that was made by Caylee's body being curled back there for X amount of time, or because the spare had been used in a previous car accident and not replaced. Spill soaks in, causes circular stain, and some weeks later is source of the "smells like there's been a dead body in the d*%n car".

5. Perp leans deep into trunk of car, grabs laundry bag handles with dominant right hand, supports with weaker left hand. Right hand lifts top part of laundry bag away from carpet; weaker left hand scoots bottom end of bag and contents toward bumper, uses side and back-end of trunk space for leverage, hoists, and starts towards that fallen tree. Spillage at handle end/near rounded part of spare cover, and perhaps dripping/dragging across left side of trunk (lift w/R hand, prop base of bag in L of trunk as you are facing it, hoist up and out), resulting in what Eidetic's enhancements indicate, above.

6. Guardian angel :angel: cleans heck out of obvious stain (the curved one at the back left of trunk, the one that shows so well on the bottom side), does her--or his?--best with other stains, but at this point main focus would be on major spillage that caused what we see on bottom of rounded side of spare tire cover. The drag residue from the seeping bag was maybe not so visibly evident as the longer-distilled back-of-trunk stain, so a once- or twice- or thrice- over with the wetvac might have seemed enough?

7. Eidetic, is there any way you can put the photos of the bottom of spare tire liner and the shot of side-stained garbage bag dumped at towyard together for us? TIA (and again)

MOO, that is.

ETA--has there been any released information regarding forensic tests on the external rear bumper of the car? If what stained the trunk liner is in any way related to Caylee, could the A's have managed to remove all traces from the rear bumper but not the interior of the trunk???

 

[ynotdivein]

From WESH -- "The trunk liner photographs showed a flaky substance and what look like small stains. Larger stains are visible on the back of the liner." In our discussions about the paper towels in the trash bag, wasn't grave wax described as a flaky substance? Am I remembering this correctly?

Hey steady, found more info here:

http://writersforensicsblog.wordpress.com/2009/05/14/dead-folks-and-decay/

“The third method of alteration is by adipocere formation, which is the result of a chemical process called saponification. Basically soap making. Adipocere is caused by a reaction between certain bacteria and the body’s adipose (fatty) tissues. Bacteria such as Clostridia perfringens, the bacterium that causes gas gangrene, convert body fat into oleic, stearic, and palmitic acids, the primary constitutes of adipocere. The result is a whitish-gray or brownish, greasy or waxy substance, which can cast the body in a doll-like fashion.”

 

[ynotdivein]

Respectfully snipped by me.

Respectfully snipped by me too--Eidetic, you have the most apt screen name EVAH. :blowkiss:

 

[Eidetic]

I hope this latest screen shot makes sense. My method is definitely uncertain and my brain needs to reboot.
The purple on the wheel cover is actually where the color changed for me on the spare tire cover. Whereas with the rest of the trunk, the greenish tint from left directly at the brake light wrapping up, running behind the back seat and the right bump at the right rear changed on the other photos.

Now visualize that, in here;

I have been trying to be able to recognize decomposition by comparison :waitasec:

 

[Truthwillsetufree]

Picture no. 7 of the cardboard cover piece over the wheel well, on the left hand side is a stain. Does anyone else see what could be the outline of a child? Head, back and start of the leg area. Also at the very bottom edge looks like someone spilled some bleach.

Yes. I never could really see anything in the previous released picture of the trunk liner but the underneath side, well, it might as well be a picture of a baby laying on it's side. So sad.

 

[Truthwillsetufree]

I see it Lambchop. Do you think it's possible that she wasn't put on top of the carpet area, but rather, inside the actual tire well and that's why there is stain on the underside, and not the top?

Yes !!

 

[Truthwillsetufree]

Yes !!

Please go back and research what has already been sleuthed.
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3000636#post3000636"]http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3000636#post3000636[/ame]

Post 105, Then go to this link...the exact same make model and year as KC's. It was always my theory that this child was placed in the wheel well, that is why GA and the Tow yard man did not see Caylee.

http://s456.photobucket.com/albums/qq289/gigi2009_photos/?albumview=slideshow

 

[Truthwillsetufree]

So after looking at Caylee's height and getting the actual measurements of the compartment (Thanks Westcott), then looking at various body proportions. I just don't see Caylee being able to fit in that space....with normal manipulation. Perhaps if it was deeper it would be possible. Dr. G reported no tool marks on Caylee's bones. I hate tossing that out there but it is significant to this discussion about getting her to fit in the space.

imho

Dr G stated there was no evidence of trauma to the bones peri mortem, prior to death. When a reporter asked if there was evidence of post mortem trauma Dr. G refused to answer.

 

[Truthwillsetufree]

Someone tried to clean that trunk, that's for sure.

You know how when you steam clean, you get those chunks of carpet and hair that bunch up?
I can see in picture 1 .. the chunks of hair and trunk fibers where someone scrubbed.

Not sure how else to explain it.

ETA sorry if someone else already said this. I haven't read any of the posts yet.

Could very well be the reason LE took every single type of vacume/carpet cleaner from the A's home. We have yet to see the results on the vacume contents or the filter contents.

 

[ynotdivein]

...halp!

Eidetic, thank you for the montage. Brain now certifiably overloaded. Am STILL wondering how the tow-yard trash bag fits in the trunk-stain picture... I would imagine that pizza box would go up against back of rear passenger seat, right? I mean, it just fits there. So you have disposed of bag with baby in it, and you see that there's a stain and maybe a faint odor... so you grab a full trash bag from a friend's place, with a pizza box inside, and you push it into the back of your trunk sort of over where that weird stain and faint smell are... and you leave it there.

Some weeks later, tow yard manager, w/GA at his side praying that "it's not my Caylee in there," pulls said trash bag w/pizza box out of the back of the trunk, where perp placed it right over/to hide the main stain site, and tow yard guy says, "Well, there's your smell," and flings said bag at but not into a nearby dumpster. Never noticing the residual stains on the outside of that bag. Which perhaps adhered because said bag was laid on top of the exact space where most of the spillage occurred, in an attempt to (literally) cover the source of the stench.

 

[momtective]

Eidetic, thank you for all your work. I know that cranking the color sat/tint is not the same as forensic testing and that we don't know what really caused all these stains. But what your experiment shows as far as "drag patterns" from the interior trunk toward the bumper on the left side was an eye-opener. (ETA: However I did expect more staining/color change visible on the top side of the carpet piece that covers the spare, given that the underneath/backing section is so clearly marked with that half-circle and its ring of salty white...)

Off to remind myself where in the trunk GA said the laundry bag was when he caught a glimpse of it, and to verify that KC is right-handed...

I specifically remember his comment as well, that he saw some laundry or a laundry bag in the trunk. I think he mentioned hangers or cloths hangers as well. I've looked for his statement for months and haven't been able to find it. I'm so glad someone else remembers GA saying something about it...I was beginning to think I just dreamed it.

 

[ZsaZsa]

Dr G stated there was no evidence of trauma to the bones peri mortem, prior to death. When a reporter asked if there was evidence of post mortem trauma Dr. G refused to answer.

Maybe she felt the reporter should have read her Post Mortem report- she stated that there is evidence of post mortem animal activity on the skeleton.

 

[BondJamesBond]

Is this the outline of a child in a fetal position that the FBI noticed?

View attachment 7599

:twocents:

Have to re-read, but, IIRC, the comment from forensics indicated that a high-res (or something similar) monitor maybe necessary to distinguish the outline. That suggested to me that the outline was revealing itself due to the reflection of light off of the carpet fibers (vs. the board/backing) the density of which might be lost on something of lower resolution. Perhaps a total fabrication of my imagination...but was under the impression it was from the carpeted side.

 

[KenoshaKid]

Is this the outline of a child in a fetal position that the FBI noticed?

View attachment 7599

I guess if we knew the dimensions of the stain that could exclude it as a possibility or not. Anyone know?

 

[skygirl]

I specifically remember his comment as well, that he saw some laundry or a laundry bag in the trunk. I think he mentioned hangers or cloths hangers as well. I've looked for his statement for months and haven't been able to find it. I'm so glad someone else remembers GA saying something about it...I was beginning to think I just dreamed it.

GA's - FBI interview part 3 at like 8:34 ish.....

http://www.wftv.com/video/18033186/index.html

HTH.

Hope the bottom of the blue bin was tested.

I also just listend to this again for the 100th time, and GA says he has a key to KC's car. (I didn't know that)