2010.07.02 Actual Emergency Hearing Thread

[gamom]

During todays hearing I think Jose Baez, Cheney, and the reason Lyons left...is because none of her attorneys get along at all! Lyons wanted Casey to do and act a certain way and Casey either won't or Jose said no. And Jose pointed out in open court today that Cheney didn't have experience to it and basically bad mouthed him in court today and he was not present, it speaks volumes to me. He also was not sure if co-counsel Cheney would be present for the depositions.

I got the impression JB was trying to be a smart booty when he made the comment. As if to say, Mason is SOOOO experienced even HE was not seen this kind of situation pop up before. I just think like most of JB jokes, this rolled off as not funny. He said it a couple of times, that is why I think he was trying to be sarcastic.

 

[gamom]

The thing is...... and what people may misunderstand......is that I crave a hearing where JB does well and where he seems to be on top of things. I would like to see him demonstrate an image of capability and knowledge.

I want to see a fair trial. I want to see both side argue with gusto, so that when a verdict is read it leaves no questions or doubts looming in the public arena.......a trial where each side has proven their case and done so with respect for the other side.

I think I enjoyed diving into AL's methods and teachings so much because it helped me understand her reasoning and her thought process. It is far more valuable to "understand" than to just argue an opinion.

I just can't "get" anything from JB thus far. He "seems" eratic and confused and disorganized. BUT.....I do leave open the possibility that his actions ARE part of his process. People talk about book smart and street smart. IMO.....There's just not enough info to make a determination yet.

I have said before and will say again....... regardless of which side dictates the topic at hand..............it is a facinating look at the legal system.

One can learn much from this case. I suspect it will be used in legal education in the future.

What a great group of minds there are here at WS. I enjoy the company and debate!!!!

ITA. What we all forget sometimes is the Jury is going to be a jury of KC's peers. That being said, it is a good chance that none of them will be attorneys, have PHD's, etc. I think JB's hope is that he will appeal to the jurors. I think that is in part why he wants to be in Miami. He is assuming he can get the jurors to like him and to reason with what his theory's are. Sort of like "The state is setting my client up and the LE is helping them." It is not uncommon for young and even old people to think that they can't trust the law or the system. It is especially not uncommon to find minorities that may believe this. Jose is hoping that they will see Jose and think...he is one of us. We can trust him and see the State and think they are trying to frame his client just because she went out and partied a little and may not have been the best mom. He is banking on getting a minority jury where it is not uncommon in their house hold to have grandmothers, taking care of grand babies while the young mom is still really finding her way.

Just my opinion.

 

[LambChop]

So the big question is......Was JB totally unaware that KC was receiving this mail? Did she not disclose it to him? Obviously if I were to get threats I would have turned the letters over to my attorney and if I got letters in support I would think my attorney would be interested in those, too. Letters from family begging for her to see them. Would KC not have spoken to her attorney about that? Surely she discussed this with KC with all the motions to stop videotaping their visits.....he must have known about the letters and had an opportunity to review them at the time. So why is he crying about the release of them. They were released to him first and then the public, yet he acts as if he is totally in the dark about these letters. Would this not be the job of her attorney to at least look over any letters she received when their whole case so far is SODDI? I would love to see a motion from JB for sanctions. It's part of your job JB. Know exactly what your client is getting for mail because she has not gone to trial yet. Puts a BIG HOLE right in the middle of their SODDI theory, I would think. JB needs to get his mind off the SEMINAR he attended and back on the case...... jmo

 

[Lanie]

Unless said party is aware of the validity or relevency of specific statements contained within said letters...........Hmmmmmmmmm

Almost as if he was mad because the release of the letters might have sullied some of his mitigation arguments.

I just can't rationally explain (note use of rationally) why letters to the inmates were OK in his book but the others were NOT.

BBM and MOO

I think it is more of an immature thing. I don't think he wants most of the stuff he complains about having, it is, IMO, more of an attempt to make the state look like they are being devious and withholding information.

IMO, Baez is not properly representing his client, IMO, Baez is not doing nearly the work he is claiming to be doing, and IMO, he doesn't want to do the work, as evidenced by his filing motion after motion to receive tips from OSCO, when it was established early on all he had to do was pay for them, and also the whole TES debacle, and now, here were at least a couple of thousand of inmate mail he could have pitched a fit over, but that was taken away by the state just handing them right over to him, so now the poor guy has to actually put up the appearance of wading through it all.

My opinion of this has a lot to do with what he said about the letters today. IMO, his main gripes seemed to be they were irrelevant and shouldn't have even been considered discovery, and now he has to wade through 5000 pages, which is going to take so much time, and interfere with deadlines, etc. etc. IMO, if he really feels like they are irrelevant, he shouldn't even mess with them, but that's just me.

 

[gamom]

BBM and MOO

I think it is more of an immature thing. I don't think he wants most of the stuff he complains about having, it is, IMO, more of an attempt to make the state look like they are being devious and withholding information.

IMO, Baez is not properly representing his client, IMO, Baez is not doing nearly the work he is claiming to be doing, and IMO, he doesn't want to do the work, as evidenced by his filing motion after motion to receive tips from OSCO, when it was established early on all he had to do was pay for them, and also the whole TES debacle, and now, here were at least a couple of thousand of inmate mail he could have pitched a fit over, but that was taken away by the state just handing them right over to him, so now the poor guy has to actually put up the appearance of wading through it all.

My opinion of this has a lot to do with what he said about the letters today. IMO, his main gripes seemed to be they were irrelevant and shouldn't have even been considered discovery, and now he has to wade through 5000 pages, which is going to take so much time, and interfere with deadlines, etc. etc. IMO, if he really feels like they are irrelevant, he shouldn't even mess with them, but that's just me.

Just wanted to add that I feel also that he does not like the part where the A's admit that JB was committing a crime by secretly passing letters back and forth.

 

[sleutherontheside]

Just wanted to add that I feel also that he does not like the part where the A's admit that JB was committing a crime by secretly passing letters back and forth.

EXCELLENT point!!!!!!!!!!! Because now...not only has KC said so (in her letters to another inmate) but the family has confirmed it. Could it be that JB might now face his own legal issues based upon "written confirmation" by BOTH sides that under the radar letter exchanges did infact take place????????

Perhaps his "issue" with the letters is more out of concern for self preservation than violating the rights of his client.

Well done.:dance:

BTW........the jail guard SH.......investigated for her involvement in the jail letter exchange.......has been officially FIRED!
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/

 

[TUSK]

here's the best example i could find that approaches jb performance
today and the courtroom's reaction ,including the judge,kc,
ca and sa.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zgeQmzV9kk&feature=related[/ame]

 

[LambChop]

I'll bet JB is the topic of conversation at all the gatherings within the legal communities which may explain the tension between SA and JB. And I'm also willing to bet that JB is aware of what is being said and may feel threatened by it. jmo

 

[Lanie]

The thing is...... and what people may misunderstand......is that I crave a hearing where JB does well and where he seems to be on top of things. I would like to see him demonstrate an image of capability and knowledge.

I want to see a fair trial. I want to see both side argue with gusto, so that when a verdict is read it leaves no questions or doubts looming in the public arena.......a trial where each side has proven their case and done so with respect for the other side.

I think I enjoyed diving into AL's methods and teachings so much because it helped me understand her reasoning and her thought process. It is far more valuable to "understand" than to just argue an opinion.

I just can't "get" anything from JB thus far. He "seems" eratic and confused and disorganized. BUT.....I do leave open the possibility that his actions ARE part of his process. People talk about book smart and street smart. IMO.....There's just not enough info to make a determination yet.

I have said before and will say again....... regardless of which side dictates the topic at hand..............it is a facinating look at the legal system.

One can learn much from this case. I suspect it will be used in legal education in the future.

What a great group of minds there are here at WS. I enjoy the company and debate!!!!

I get what you are saying, and I agree with some of it, and some of it I don't.

I, too, wish Casey actually had a competent attorney representing her, but, IMHO, if she had, this case would have been pled out long ago.

IM(layperson)O, there is no winning this case. JB appears to want to investigate everyone involved in giving tips, everyone involved in the TES searches, and now maybe everyone who wrote to Casey. To thoroughly investigate this many people would take a very long time, and IMO is not even feasible. The more he grasps at straws, the weaker his case appears, and IMO, a good attorney knows that. I mean, the man does not even keep track of his 'billable' hours, wth is that? I have had to use an attorney several times, and I have never even had to ask for it, yet have always received an itemized billing statement for hours worked, even once when it was an hour and a half.

What HHJP said today is what I've been saying for a long time. This case is not special, it is just, IMO, another mother who killed her child and dumped the body. If you took away all the antics by the parents and the brother, by the defense attorney and his entourage, take away 31 days before this was brought to light, and the sunshine laws which allowed the public to know about the fake nanny and the long hallway walk at Universal, IMO, that is all you are left with.

 

[Lanie]

Just wanted to add that I feel also that he does not like the part where the A's admit that JB was committing a crime by secretly passing letters back and forth.

Yeah, I was thinking about that, too, but for some reason I had it in my head Cindy had spilled the beans about that in an interview or something, but that could easily be misinformation on my part.

But yeah, I think it would be awesome if that being in the letters would be enough for him to get in trouble.

 

[wonders]

I wonder why JB was objecting to the expert witnesses being videotaped? Why doesn't he want us to see who they are? He had to list them, what is the problem with knowing what they look like. At least that is the impression I got when he stood up and requested that the witnesses not be video taped.

Dosen't want lips read is my guess.

 

[Cher352]

During todays hearing I think Jose Baez, Cheney, and the reason Lyons left...is because none of her attorneys get along at all! Lyons wanted Casey to do and act a certain way and Casey either won't or Jose said no. And Jose pointed out in open court today that Cheney didn't have experience to it and basically bad mouthed him in court today and he was not present, it speaks volumes to me. He also was not sure if co-counsel Cheney would be present for the depositions.

I got a feeling that Cheney is not going to like this at all!

Wonder how long it will be before he bails out too???:waitasec:

 

[faefrost]

TYVM for responding,yes I have
followed,but not as closely since
joining WS. I understand about
her appearing in court for all
motions,but can she still come back
and say "As a lay-person,I did not know
it was this bad" and to add insult to
injury "he kept me from my family,who
possibly would have told me,how bad
this was going" ?

I thank you for your thoughts,I'm
just dumb-founded (sp) I can't believe
what I saw today,in a court of law
and a death penalty case.:twocents:



Again TYVM for explaining :blushing:

KC can try and claim that as a reason for appeal. But chances are it will be shot down pretty quickly. Ineffective council is a tough argument to make, and normally only succeeds in cases where the client has very little control of their attorney, such as a public defender unable to devote sufficient time to their case. It pretty much requires a degree of negligence. Simply hiring a lousy lawyer is not sufficient grounds for appeal. You can knowingly choose to hire a complete bozo as a lawyer. So long as you make that decision willfully and with full knowledge of their actions. In this case KC has not just JB, but has had legal counsel from a veritable "dream team" of high priced and skilled attorneys. Well beyond what any typical defendant could conceivably hope to have. And both judges have taken great care to insure that she is fully in the loop about what the arguements mean, and that she is witnessing her lawyers performances prior to trial so she can make this informed decision.

 

[MD MOMMY]

Dosen't want lips read is my guess.

My guess is..... he has an issue because he doesn't believe they aren't recording sound. Didn't he have an issue with a camera in the jail too?

 

[Cher352]

Not finished reading the whole thread but JB has had access to those letter to KC all along. KC received them in jail. If he wanted to review them and check out the people who sent them he could have done that already. KC has the originals. Unless....flushie, flushie.... jmo

I not sure KC even received all of those letters. The jail opens them and then decides which ones the inmate gets. Some of those letters might not have made it though.

But I also thought in the beginning something was said about Baez saying he wanted to review all her letters prior to KC getting them. I remember us discussing whether or not this was possible, anyone know if this review was ever enacted? If it was then he has seen them all too before.

 

[wonders]

If he thinks the State did something wrong, broke any rules, then file a Motion asking for Sanctions (not whine about it in court).
If he thinks the jail did something wrong, then file a lawsuit against them in Federal court (not whine about it in court and take up the Judge's time)

I wonder if JB ever has any V-8 moments. Smacks himself in the head and say why didn't think of that or if he smacks CM in the head and say why didn't you think of that old timer?

 

[CarolinaMoon]

The problem is that Baez has been off on his various tangents to find SOD to use as a defense. He wants 4,000 TES records, ALL the tips, and now he's taking 5,000 as a serious challenge?

What he should be putting his time into is building a serious defense in terms of the witnesses and actually knowing what reports have already been released and somehow get released again!

I just had to look at the first page of the interviews released in the recent doc dump to know I'd read them before.

I dare say, the average Websleuther has a better knowledge of the witnesses and their testimony than he has.

 

[beach]

The thing is...... and what people may misunderstand......is that I crave a hearing where JB does well and where he seems to be on top of things. I would like to see him demonstrate an image of capability and knowledge.

I want to see a fair trial. I want to see both side argue with gusto, so that when a verdict is read it leaves no questions or doubts looming in the public arena.......a trial where each side has proven their case and done so with respect for the other side.

I think I enjoyed diving into AL's methods and teachings so much because it helped me understand her reasoning and her thought process. It is far more valuable to "understand" than to just argue an opinion.

I just can't "get" anything from JB thus far. He "seems" eratic and confused and disorganized. BUT.....I do leave open the possibility that his actions ARE part of his process. People talk about book smart and street smart. IMO.....There's just not enough info to make a determination yet.

I have said before and will say again....... regardless of which side dictates the topic at hand..............it is a facinating look at the legal system.

One can learn much from this case. I suspect it will be used in legal education in the future.

What a great group of minds there are here at WS. I enjoy the company and debate!!!!

Sots, great points made and I agree with everything you said, except the portion I bolded. I have given him the benefit of the doubt since the beginning, but for me, I have enough info and it scares me. I do think he is inadequate counsel to be defending anyone in a case of this magnitude. Not to be a total snark, but I really wouldn't let him defend me in traffic court. And, I mean that.

Today was the final straw for me. I could not believe some of the things I heard roll out of his mouth. Many you referenced in an earlier post. I am still totally aghast that he mentioned the Phil Spector trial. I can't think of anything he should have known w/o a doubt to stay as far away from more than referencing the trial where Henry Lee's reputation was destroyed because it was proven that he tampered with evidence. Considering the very issue that was at the heart of this motion, it is just mind boggling. I am almost stuttering as bad as JB while trying to type this out. I am actually more concerned today than I have ever been in re. KC's shot at an appeal for ineffective counsel. AL is gone. CM's crazy presser after the last status hearing certainly adds no comfort, it is clear he doesn't have a clue. And, JB? oh my... I'm holding out hope in re. LKB.

I don't know. So much was strange. Casey's demeanor today...it took them forever to get her into court and she was very different today. It struck me like no other time. She CLEARLY did NOT want to be there. Her emotions appeared sincere. She appeared to barely be able to hold it together today. So, if she was truly upset, then I have to believe it has to do with HERSELF. Because nothing would evoke those kind of emotions in her, if whatever it was didn't affect KC personally. Something is going on. I just haven't quite figured out exactly what it is yet... It is obvious there is major discord within the defense team. All kind of things are running through my mind. It could be as simple has she was self-conscious about her chipped tooth (has it been repaired?) or could be as complicated as her defense attorneys had a 'Come-to-meet-Jesus' talk with her and she didn't take it well. I'm still processing it all. Even JB's demeanor seemed more depressing to me today.

I just know that if he ends up arguing solo on July 15th against Mark NeJame, I don't know that I have the stomach to watch it. And, I LOVE MN...I was looking forward to it. But, I am not big on watching massacres, either. lol

 

[faefrost]

EXCELLENT point!!!!!!!!!!! Because now...not only has KC said so (in her letters to another inmate) but the family has confirmed it. Could it be that JB might now face his own legal issues based upon "written confirmation" by BOTH sides that under the radar letter exchanges did infact take place????????

Perhaps his "issue" with the letters is more out of concern for self preservation than violating the rights of his client.

Well done.:dance:

BTW........the jail guard SH.......investigated for her involvement in the jail letter exchange.......has been officially FIRED!
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/

That's been my take on JB's sudden "emergency" for this hearing. Much like the infamous jail video that he protested high and low, mainly because it seemed to show some questionable contact with his client, he wants these out because they implicate him in a felony. Plus as an added bonus, they completely undermine a huge chunk of his previous (and repeatedly unsuccessful) arguments concerning KC's privacy and the videotapes being the reasons her family cannot see her.

 

[sleutherontheside]

Hey guys.....I bumped a few threads for you to use for further discussion about.......mitigation, JB allegedly passing letters, etc.....

Take a look at the KC forum page and see if your thoughts fit well there. Try to post comments about specific topics in threads about that topic. That way when this thread is closed you know where to look for discussion.