2010.07.19 Defense is Investigating George

[jon_burrows]

nono that was woe's post.. mine was respoding to hers but It messed up after I responded to it and now I can't delete it. It had my response in it when I posted and but my response is gone now.

Oh thanks. I'll delete my post to avoid any confusion.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Are you saying George duct taped Caylee, put her in trash bags/laundry bag then put her body in Casey's car?

So I'll answer the question.

Yes I'm saying it's possible. I'm saying somebody else (not necessarily GA) set up the scene to include doing those horrible things to Caylee's body to make it look like a kidnapping (the script) so that CA wouldn't have to answer to the law about what really happened to Caylee.

Remember CA asked KC 'why didn't she pick up the car?'
We don't know who she is but it sounds like the Pontiac was not supposed to end up in the local tow yard lot.

 

[WellDone]

I don't know if JW ever says anything that's true. But for someone who has been forcibly committed at least five times, my first reaction would be to doubt her, at least until George and Cindy confirmed the godfather status, and I could see a baptismal certificate with his name on it.
I took her rambling to mean she thought of George as a strong protector, and more in terms of The Godfather - and she (JW) had appointed him to watch over her daughter as a form of protection. I could be completely out in the field about this one.

But not about JW's credibility.

BBM ~ Speaking online I've heard JW tell it as.... she only knew of the Anthony's once Caylee became missing & she became involved.....

 

[john's mom]

Hot dang, WBG and OLG, I thought I had conquered my insomnia for the evening but... let us joust theoretically.



And then what? Who bagged Caylee and put the duct tape on her mouth? How did CA and KC decide that KC would take the fall for that? KC has never taken the fall, even 7 months pregnant. Her mom's been the one to take the fall, and she didn't step up on this one...




I completely agree.



OLG, you are so right about the "perfection gene." No way would CA call and admit she had been fighting her daughter, and no way could she admit that she suspects her daughter has killed her granddaughter. I cannot believe that CA herself choked Caylee but I can well believe that KC reenacted upon her daughter something that her mother had done to her, and I believe that CA would be aware of such a thing and yet be too caught up in "perfection" to admit to it....



I heard "What do you mean you don't know what my involvement is?" as an attempt at complete denial. "You think I'm INVOLVED? You 'don't know what my involvement is'?"

As for "Don't worry, I didn't tell 'em anything"... well. Thereby may hang a tail, as my grandma would have said. Could refer to something as easy as interfamilial rancor. Could refer to as yet untold mysteries (Lee saying to KC, "This isn't like last time")... Could be a whack-job saying something she knows is guaranteed to prick up LE's ears.

This is a very interesting thread you guys have going on here....I snipped and bolded the above.

I took the 'dont worry...' quote as KC acknowledging that the psychologist was 'on LE's side' and she's not saying ANYTHING to them. Not that necessarily there was anything to tell......just simply she's not opening up to them and being honest. But then again, is anything they have said to each other just innocent or does everything have some other meaning? With them, you never know.

I'd really like to know what Lee meant by 'like the last time?' We probably will never know.

 

[logicalgirl]

I understand that. But imo that reason doesn't fly under the circumstances. KC is behind bars, their granddaughter is missing - what do they have to loose by pressing KC hard for answers? They're either really stupid (like GA likes to claim he isn't) or KC's holding something over their heads. :twocents:

That's a pretty easy answer - they did press her for answers - view ICA's temper tantrum - and what did Baez do? Forbid her to see her family.

With a temper like that, do you really believe pressing her for answers would result in getting any? IMO, of course not - what they'd get is what they've always gotten - another temper tantrum.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

That would be better than continuing to watch them kiss her arse.
At this point I don't believe a word any of them say and I find it amusing when others say 'until the A's confirm it' or something like that. Oh, why do you believe that? Because CA told me it was so. :crosseyed::beamup:

 

[OneLostGrl]

OOPs! WHETHER.... baker acted or not... her actions & lies are bizarre & scary!!!!

I'm torn on this subject specifically cuz JW(specifically) seems "proud" of being baker acted for multiple times & tells everyone. I have to wonder why????

Not that it is shameful & should be hidden, I'm not saying that at all, you are definitely right..... help should be sought without the stigma.... HOWEVER.... how does that just pop up in casual conversation??????

I don't understand it to the point of wondering if she feels it's justifies her the freedom to act in outrageous ways without being TRULY held accountable...???? KWIM???? Then again... is that the norm.... like part of a 12 step program???????

BBM

IMO she needs to start being put in jail for lying to the police and filing false police claims rather than continually being baker acted for it.

 

[logicalgirl]

Wanna know how many times I have been "baker acted"( though I didn't live in florida and there is no "baker act" in CT were I was held against my will it is the same thing... a civil commitment)? I'm sorry but that is insulting- do you know how many people in society have been "baker acted"? Millions! Just because a person has a history of being in psych hospitals doesn't mean they are a liar or stupid or a freak or someone who people can't ever trust. To judge someone for going to the hospital when they need help is wrong, the stigma that comes with that is very scary.. people need to know it's OK to get help if they need it.. it's the right thing to do, to get help! Joy is just a liar and a fake and a story teller... but getting help is always the right thing to do and a person should not be judged as a liar or untrustworthy for doing so.

Edited to bold my opinion of Joy.

I agree with you and I apologize if you or anyone else feels insulted. Your key phrase was "getting help is the right thing to do." Are you under the impression that I think otherwise? I think it is alright to question the word of anyone who is in the process of being committed against their will - up here that generally means you are a danger to yourself and/or other people because you are not thinking clearly.

I go and get help when I need it. Does Joy look or sound like she does? Well judging by her videos, and her dancing, I think not. My statements were directed at Joy, not the "millions" who have been Baker acted or committed against their will to a psych ward, including those in my own family.

 

[WellDone]

OLG: "Joy is just a liar and a fake and a story teller"

Hmmm...sounds like the Anthony's & Defense........ :waitasec:

"IMO she needs to start being put in jail for lying to the police and filing false police claims rather than continually being baker acted for it. "

Again..... Hmmm...sounds like the Anthony's & Defense........ :waitasec:

 

[OneLostGrl]

OLG: "Joy is just a liar and a fake and a story teller"

Hmmm...sounds like the Anthony's & Defense........ :waitasec:

"IMO she needs to start being put in jail for lying to the police and filing false police claims rather than continually being baker acted for it. "

Again..... Hmmm...sounds like the Anthony's & Defense........ :waitasec:

Birds of a feather ..

 

[Leila]

It's funny how we can all hear the exact same words but interpret them very differently. I thought Casey was berating CA for having the audacity to say such a thing. Casey said Zany took her and that's what CA should believe. Casey was ticked that CA questioned her credibility and she was furious that she did it during one of her 'cameos'. Casey was combative, rude, obnoxious, and showed no signs of being afraid of Cindy. It was like Cindy was walking on egg shells so she wouldn't upset Casey.

Casey goes on to say something like are you f***ing kidding me, I don't know where she is.

IMO

This is exactly how I heard it too.

 

[Just Jayla]

This is exactly how I heard it too.

As did I, cause I kept wondering why CA didn't say "no, you are f'ing kidding me! You can tell me where Caylee is now, or I'm gonna toss you out there for the wolves every chance I get, KC!"

CA seemed to have a set when she went by Tony's, what happened in between that she cowered at KC when she called and KC became her 'sweetheart'? Did CA take medication? Was she tired? Was she in the loop by then as to what really happened to Caylee? Did KC come up with leverage (I'll say dad/LA molested me)?

Think about the car ride home when CA called 911, and we heard CA telling KC she was going to get custody of Caylee....KC was all wimpy then...CA should have asked KC why on Earth she thought TL would want to talk to someone who lied to him, lied to police, lied to her family-She really could have pushed KC's buttons.

I will write that I thought it was great how not only CA but LA passed the phone around knowing it would make KC irate. Nanny nanny boo boo, we don't have to listen to you, KC! By the time Kristina got the phone, KC's head was going to explode :dance:

 

[Woe.be.gone]

In trying to figure out what interview was conducted on July 31, 2008 with CA, I ran across the date of August 1, 2008 (I can't figure out how the August date came into play - when I tried to access the interview that was posted in our Official Docs thread, post 134 released on or about 4/8/09, it is no longer available.) The post lists interview and transcript with the dates of August 1 and August 4, 2008, respectively, but the interview is no longer available. I'm wondering if this could be the July 31, 2008 interview with CA that is missing from the docs.

Later in the same thread (Official Docs.) on July 30, 2009, Post 175, there is a link to an interview with CA with the August 1, 2008 date listed again. In actuality the date of the interview found therein took place on April 21, 2009 with the FBI. I'm not sure why the August 2008 date appears there again (in post 175). Confusing but I'm getting to my point regarding George -

Anyway, here we go again, within Part 14* of CA's interview on page 84 (written 7600) I read the following comment by Cindy -

First, Cindy is explaining why she would not let George go over to JG's house to listen for the sound of Caylee within the property (spy). CA asks GA what he would do if he heard Caylee in the house and CA tells FBI/LE the following exchange took place. ~

"He goes, no I'd call 911. I said, no you wouldn't any father would break that door down and rush in there to try to get ... or grandfather would try to get it. So, don't tell me not, you're not going there and you're not doing that."

Interesting. CA's Freudian slip had not registered with me before.

*The start of this April 2009 interview with Cindy begins within Part 13 on pdf. page 33. There is an interview with KC that preceeds it. Part 14 begins with page 84 of Cindy's interview and part 15 and 16 follow. It's a good interview to review imo.

 

[LambChop]

My husband would often tell his grandson...bring that to daddy. Sometimes our grandchildren remind us so much of our children that those slips happen. It's really not that uncommon. And if they live with you it's even easier to make that mistake. jmo

 

[nort]

Our granchildren have lived with us on three seperate occasions it is an easy slip up..

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Here's what the FBI has for DNA (released Sept. 29, 2009). DNA gathered for the purposes of matching it to items found having to do with the crime scene by graphing STR (short tandom repeats or genetic variants).

CA(K5-1)
15,16 / 15,18 / 20,21 / X / 13,14 / 30,32 / 14,16 / 11,14 / 9,14 / 10,11

GA(K7-1)
15,19 / 18,19 / 22,25 /XY/ - 14 - /- 30 - / 14,17 / 12,13 / 11,12 / - 12 -

LA(K9-1)
15,19 / 17,19 / 20,25 /XY/ - 14 -/- 30 - / 14,17 / 11,12 / 12,14 / 11,12

KC(K1-1)
15,19 / - 18- / 20,25 / X / 13,14 / -30 - / 14,17 / 11,12 / 11,14 / 11,12

Caylee(Q18-1)
14,15 / 17,18 /20,24 / X / 12,13 / 28,30 / 14,16 / 11,12/ 11,12 / 11
*(19)---------------------(14)*


You inherit one number each from each parent. If there is one number, then you got that number from both parents. "At each locus a person has two alleles one from each parent. When there is only one allele, by chance the person inherited the same allele from each parent."

*appears like that on the FBI report

This is how they could tell that the toothbrushes had a mixture of DNA on them. By the way, how common is it for family members to use the same toothbrush? We don't at our house.

Parentage Report from August 15, 2005
Casey
13,14 / - 30 - / 11,12 / 10,11 / 15,19 / 6,8 / 11,14 / 9,12 / 17,24 / 13,14 / -18 - / 8,11 / 14,17 / 11,12 / 20,25

Caylee
12,19 / 28,30 / - 11 - / - 10 - / 14,15 / 8,7 / 11,12 / 9,13 / -17 - / 13,15 / 17,18 / - 8 - / 14,16 / 11,12 / 20,24

The report from 2005 (Jesse's) is more detailed as it contains more allele.
Each set of numbers (or number) corresponds to another number (ie, D75820 or D21511 that means something ) and a lab can measure the odds of different combinations of people who could produce these combinations and arrive at a percentage of possiblty for another set of DNA to produce the outcome of the child's DNA.

"phenotypes for H and I similarities at highly heterozy-gous DNA loci is useful in suggesting incest."

"in some cases incest detection may arise during a regular paternity test."

Mitochondria DNA from a mother's cells can be used to tell how old the father is if when you know the age of the child.

This completes my study thus far.

I also learned 'if you determine the obligate allele in the child then you can determine if the man also carries this allele.' What is the obligate allele?

Keep in mind that KC would not consent to a DNA test. OC had to serve a search warrant.

Allele numbers can moderate for different reasons (see the number 17 in Lee's DNA that is not seen in either CA's or GA's). I was not able to find an explanation of how an incest victim's DNA might vary from 'regular' couples' DNA other than there is an increased incidence of undersirable recessive genes.

Also keep in mind, some of the information above, may not be explained 100 percent accurately because I'm interpreting what I'm learning based on a self imposed crash course.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

continuing my amateur study ~

Amelogenian = XX or XY

obligate paternal allele = the allele donated by a child's father.

obligate heterozygote = an individual in a family who is proven to carry one copy of a recessive allele by having affected progeny (descendants. children; outcome. product) who inherited two copies of the mutant allele, one from each parent. Increased frequency of homozygotes causes congenital birth defects.

16 loci = many different sized fragments, or alleles, associated with each locus = genetic markers.

homozygous = identical but usually not the same size (heterozygous). The laboratory identifies the length of the two alleles at each locus. So if there is one number, ie 30 at the locus, that means it was the same length in both contributors, otherwise it should be entered as 30,30.

More than two obligate paternal alleles absent is evidence against paternity.

Use caution when differences occur at only one or two loci as a mutational event could have occurred. It's best to study approximately 33 independent STR's in order to raise accuracy to 97.5 percent when determining if people who are related are indeed related to the offspring.

In other words, it's not always cut and dried but other times the outcome of the simplist test is enough to conclude if the alledged father could be the father by eliminating the possibility that anyone else could have been.

In the post above, LA's profile (although not the full 16, 18 or even 33 loci that would be optimal) still raises my eyebrow but LE said they eliminated him. I wish we could see all of the data. Would LE protect Lee's privacy for any reason? The numbers sure are close. I wonder if that's common. I see Caylee had a no. 28 allele that is different.

If you compare Jesse's DNA, you see that the DNA varies more, I'll show you -

Casey
13,14 / - 30 - / 11,12 / 10,11 / 15,19 / 6,8 / 11,14 / 9,12 / 17,24 / 13,14 / -18- / 8,11 / 14,17 / 11,12 / 20,25 - (I'm not sure where to put the XX)

Jesse
10,13 / 29,32.2 / 10,11 / 10,11 / 16,18 / 6,9 / 8,11 / -12- / -17- / 14,15 / 13,16 / -8- / 14,15 / 11,12 / 21,23 - (XY)

Caylee
12,19 / 28,30.0 / -11- / - 10 - / 14,15 / 8,7 / 11,12 / 9,13 / -17- / 13,15 / 17,18 / -8- / 14,16 / 11,12 / 20,24 - (XX)

Here's a new observation - You see where Caylee has a single 10 and a single 17 and KC and Jesse have both 10's and 11's in that place and then KC has a 17,24 whereas Jesse only has a 17 in another place?

Caylee could inherit a single 10 and 17 by chance even though her mother and Jesse had an 11 to give and KC has a 24 to give as well. They hypothetically both gave the same number but then they probably would not be the same size. But if I understand correctly, in Caylee's space it should show as 10/10 or 17,17 If the lengths are different. If they're the same length, then that is a recessive gene (which would be more prone to happen when there is incest involved) and should be shown as a single 10 or 17 as it is listed. :waitasec:

Make sense? In other words, just because it's the same number doesn't mean it's the same but should be listed as 10,10. They have to look at the size/length. If it's the same, it is considered recessive.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

George / Lee you are not the father.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

It sure would explain a lot about the behavior of this family if one of them was the father though. Could an uncle or a cousin be the father? Caylee was conceived around the holidays when peeps usually see their relatives. I'd bet a good amount of money that the A's are hiding something.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

:twocents: George / Lee why don't you tell the TRUTH ? George / Lee why do you cover for your daughter / sister if she killed your granddaughter / niece?

George, you taught your daughter to lie along with your all powerful wifey. :twocents: