2010.07.26 Grand Jury begins

[grandmaj]

There are Investigative Grand Juries used for limited purposes. For investigating Public Officials or Agencies, Organized Crime under the RICO statutes. AZ Lawyer came on the other day and in the GJ thread and talked about it. I think AZ gave the example of a church for allegations of abuse.

Now maybe they have invoked some investigative tool but I'm rather doubting it at this point.

 

[jadejazzkayla]

what crime do you think this grand jury is investigating?

- kyron's kidnapping
- looking at the ro before it was unsealed.
- mfh

is it just me that doesn't know which one it is? and could it be possibly something else?

 

[grandmaj]

George Anthony got a Subpeona and someone leaked it. It had nothing to do with the DA announcing it or going to the family to inform them as victims. In fact my recollection is it was speculated that it was Mr. Baez who might have leaked it. No proof just speculation.

If you remember Baez said he would surrender Casey but instead there was a weird chase of sorts.

Here is the link to our thread at WS. I couldn't find anything other than the fact that unknamed sources leaked the information.

http://www.wftv.com/news/17680298/detail.html

 

[gitana1]

what crime do you think this grand jury is investigating?

- kyron's kidnapping
- looking at the ro before it was unsealed.
- mfh

is it just me that doesn't know which one it is? and could it be possibly something else?

Kyron's disappearance. That's my guess.
Looking at the RO before it was unsealed is not something I think a GJ would be wasted on. That's a simple contempt count and would be dealt with in civil court.
I don't think it's the MFH because DS is important due to her whereabouts on the day Kyron disappeared and I think that's why she was called to testify. But, who knows?

 

[Donjeta]

I can't find it now but IIRC somebody posted a link here saying that the GJ was about Kyron's disappearance.

 

[evelyn24]

GJ is investigative. It's not like an interrogation at the PD. It's to put forth info to see if there is enough for a trial.

That is how it is investigative.

Exactly. It's to see if there is enough to bring an indictment. To get people on the record etc.

 

[evelyn24]

BBM
Especially when you consider that we all knew it from reading DD's cousins posts on that other board!

Not really surprised the cousin knew, because DD was subpoenaed, and probably told people close to her she had GJ, and it filtered down to her cousin via family gossip. Why should Desiree and Kaine know since they aren't testifying and don't read the boards?
It's not like LE told the cousin about the GJ testimony Monday. And we found out through someone spotting the cousin's post on another forum.

 

[Etilema]

what crime do you think this grand jury is investigating?

- kyron's kidnapping
- looking at the ro before it was unsealed.
- mfh

is it just me that doesn't know which one it is? and could it be possibly something else?

OH! I hadn't thought of option #2. But now that you mention it, I think that is *surely* what it must be, IMO. Because certainly if TH showed the documents to MC, she showed them to DDS.

JMO, of course.

 

[Etilema]

Kyron's disappearance. That's my guess.
Looking at the RO before it was unsealed is not something I think a GJ would be wasted on. That's a simple contempt count and would be dealt with in civil court.
I don't think it's the MFH because DS is important due to her whereabouts on the day Kyron disappeared and I think that's why she was called to testify. But, who knows?

Ah, then maybe I should take back my certainty that it was violating the RO.

In that case, I'm back to believing it is the MFH plot. Unless there is a lot of concrete info that has not leaked out. (Oregon is apparently the opposite of a "sunshine" state. Maybe a "new moon" state?)

 

[desquire]

There are Investigative Grand Juries used for limited purposes. For investigating Public Officials or Agencies, Organized Crime under the RICO statutes. AZ Lawyer came on the other day and in the GJ thread and talked about it. I think AZ gave the example of a church for allegations of abuse.

Now maybe they have invoked some investigative tool but I'm rather doubting it at this point.

Sometimes when there is a potential case or related cases that are expected to consume alot of a grand jury's time, the DA will empanel a separate grand jury to hear only those cases. Perhaps this is what AZ Lawyer meant. But even then, those grand juries operate in the same manner as any other grand jury.

 

[TxLady2]

BBM. There seems to be this notion floating around that there are different types of grand juries and this one is just some limited type that is "simply investigative." There is no such thing and there is only one kind of grand jury. Every grand jury is charged with investigating whether a crime has been committed and the jury solicits information from every witness that is called toward that end. After the "investigation" they must draft a "presentment" to the court of the facts they've found that, if uncontradicted and taken as true, give rise to a reasonable suspicion that a crime has been committed. The court then instructs them as to the law and the grand jury then determines whether the facts in the presentment could, if unexplained or uncontradicted, warrant a conviction by the trial jury. That's what every grand jury does.

EXACTLY!! Yes, they are kept secret, but only regarding the testimony inside the room, not necessarily the fact that they are convening. And this is probably not the only case this GJ is hearing.

It is kind of unusual for the family not to be told, IMO. They are usually kept informend of any progress on the case, so why would the DA not want them to know about the GJ? LE knows when it is going on, because they are sharing everything they have with the DA, and the DA is the one who presents the case to the GJ.

They do not do this just to find out what ONE witness knows. And they don't do it just to put pressure on a suspect. It is for the purpose of determining if there is enough evidence to take it to trial.

 

[jadejazzkayla]

I can't find it now but IIRC somebody posted a link here saying that the GJ was about Kyron's disappearance.

i can't find a link saying this. anyone else see a link?

i'm thinking that maybe it wasn't ever mentioned? that is a secret too.

 

[BeanE]

i can't find a link saying this. anyone else see a link?

i'm thinking that maybe it wasn't ever mentioned? that is a secret too.

Twas moi. I posted it yesterday.

DeDe Spicher, identified as a close friend of Terri Moulton-Horman, appeared before a grand jury Monday in Multnomah County as part of the ongoing investigation into the disappearance of Kyron Horman.

According to this article, it is Kyron's disappearance:
http://www.kgw.com/news/local/DeDe-Spicher-testifies-before-grand-jury-99252004.html

The link is no longer working, however, so you have to use the cache:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...her-testifies-before-grand-jury-99252004.html

 

[Donjeta]

i can't find a link saying this. anyone else see a link?

i'm thinking that maybe it wasn't ever mentioned? that is a secret too.

This link http://www.kgw.com/home/DeDe-Spicher-testifies-before-grand-jury-99252004.html is apparently broken now but it is in google cache:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...nce&cd=1&hl=fi&ct=clnk&gl=fi&client=firefox-a

DeDe Spicher appears before grand jury in Kyron case
by kgw.com Staff

kgw.com

Posted on July 26, 2010 at 12:09 PM

Updated today at 5:13 PM

PORTLAND, Ore. -- DeDe Spicher, identified as a close friend of Terri Moulton-Horman, appeared before a grand jury Monday in Multnomah County as part of the ongoing investigation into the disappearance of Kyron Horman.

Another:
http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20405415,00.html

Grand Jury Investigating Kyron Horman's Disappearance

However, DS's lawyer says she wasn't asked any questions about the case so it appears they didn't get much investigating done, whichever case they were wondering about.

 

[Aedrys]

Uh, maybe they weren't told because they'd show up to the courthouse and demand answers, possibly with media in tow? Or publish another article on the day of Grand Jury hearing, talking about Dede testifying and what she might know? There is no reason to tell them that Dede was going in front of the Grand Jury, especially when she didn't testify to anything. LE probably didn't want it be a mob scene in front of the courthouse afterwards. Or probably didn't KH and DY all over the news talking about Dede and what she may or may not know. After that letter they wrote, I don't blame LE for not telling them. Better to not tell the parents that someone that may be involved in what happened to Kyron was at the courthouse in front of the Grand Jury than risk any sort of commotion over it. LE is not obliged to just tell these parents every little legal thing going on with the case. It's probably hard enough as it is with them constantly going to the media and talking. Why would LE intentionally give them more to talk about? It's better for LE to keep it's distance and let them find out from someone else, IMO.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

This link http://www.kgw.com/home/DeDe-Spicher-testifies-before-grand-jury-99252004.html is apparently broken now but it is in google cache:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...nce&cd=1&hl=fi&ct=clnk&gl=fi&client=firefox-a


Another:
http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20405415,00.html


However, DS's lawyer says she wasn't asked any questions about the case so it appears they didn't get much investigating done, whichever case they were wondering about.

I never felt they were seeking an indictment by going to the Grand Jury. I felt they were using the GJ as an investigative tool. I have seen this done in past cases when a DA wants to get the statement of a witness under oath early on in the case. I am not sure it has anything to do with Kyron's case but it may be the MFH case for she would know the landscaper imo.

IMO

 

[oceanblueeyes]

EXACTLY!! Yes, they are kept secret, but only regarding the testimony inside the room, not necessarily the fact that they are convening. And this is probably not the only case this GJ is hearing.

It is kind of unusual for the family not to be told, IMO. They are usually kept informend of any progress on the case, so why would the DA not want them to know about the GJ? LE knows when it is going on, because they are sharing everything they have with the DA, and the DA is the one who presents the case to the GJ.

They do not do this just to find out what ONE witness knows. And they don't do it just to put pressure on a suspect. It is for the purpose of determining if there is enough evidence to take it to trial.

I have seen it done in another case that I remember and it was just one witness that they wanted to get her statement under oath in a GJ. That was Scott Dyleski's mother.

Grand Juries are used for two different reasons. I have been on both kinds. 1. as an investigative tool. To put a witness or witnesses under oath to lock them into their sworn statement or 2. To present testimony seeking an indictment.

ETA: Now that I think about it. They did the same thing in the Michael Jackson death case. They called a GJ to get Murray's girlfriend's (Alvarez) testimony under oath.

IMO

 

[jadejazzkayla]

Twas moi. I posted it yesterday.

DeDe Spicher, identified as a close friend of Terri Moulton-Horman, appeared before a grand jury Monday in Multnomah County as part of the ongoing investigation into the disappearance of Kyron Horman.



The link is no longer working, however, so you have to use the cache:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...her-testifies-before-grand-jury-99252004.html

thanks bean.
hmmm. sounds to me more like a lead in to the story and not necessarily a statement of fact that the grand jury was meeting re: the Kyron's disappearance. There may be no way to know. I'm leaning toward the DA may have thought DD saw the RO.

 

[Emma Peel]

Here's the thing. The day before Dede testified, the letter from Tony, Kaine & Desiree was published. It threatened civil action if Dede's reticence to cooperate with the Kyron investigation caused any delays in finding Kyron.

We have been briefed by law enforcement on the most recent developments
in Kyron’s case. We have been informed that they have identified a person
that has been in close communication with Terri Moulton Horman since
Kyron went missing and her name is DeDe Spicher. She has not only been
in close communication with Terri but has been providing Terri with support
and advice that is not in the best interests of our son. Additional information
provided shows that she is refusing to cooperate with law enforcement, she
is also going as far as to suggest to others that may have information
regarding Kyron’s disappearance, not to cooperate as well. We implore
DeDe Spicer to come forward and cooperate with the investigators in any
way that they need in order to assist us in finding our son. We will state
further that if we find out through the investigation that she caused a delay in
us finding our son due to her lack of cooperation, we will pursue civil
remedies in this matter.

The family is not LE, but ... why else would they write the letter saying they've been briefed and that Dede's cooperation has to do with Kyron's investigation if it did not...

So, we have that connecting the Dede information and cooperation with the Kyron investigation.


Also ... fast forward ... and let's say the GJ indicts on both charges. (Ignoring the RO at the moment).

I have been wondering if the MFH trial might come first? If the MFH was part of the evidence for building a Kyron disappearing circumstantial prosecution - you'd actually have to have proven the MFH. I would think that you would not try both at the same time - if you wanted to use the MFH as evidence in the Kyron case?

On the other had, you'd definitely not want MFH excluded from the Kyron trial - and defense would try to have it excluded...

If Terri wins the MFH, would the Kyron case be able to proceed on all the other Kyron case evidence?

Okay I just gave myself a headache and probably should run over to the lawyers question thread.

These are interesting legal strategy questions, IMO

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Here's the thing. The day before Dede testified, the letter from Tony, Kaine & Desiree was published. It threatened civil action if Dede's reticence to cooperate with the Kyron investigation caused any delays in finding Kyron.




The family is not LE, but ... why else would they write the letter saying they've been briefed and that Dede's cooperation has to do with Kyron's investigation if it did not...

So, we have that connecting the Dede information and cooperation with the Kyron investigation.


Also ... fast forward ... and let's say the GJ indicts on both charges. (Ignoring the RO at the moment).

I have been wondering if the MFH trial might come first? If the MFH was part of the evidence for building a Kyron disappearing circumstantial prosecution - you'd actually have to have proven the MFH. I would think that you would not try both at the same time - if you wanted to use the MFH as evidence in the Kyron case?

On the other had, you'd definitely not want MFH excluded from the Kyron trial - and defense would try to have it excluded...

If Terri wins the MFH, would the Kyron case be able to proceed on all the other Kyron case evidence?

Okay I just gave myself a headache and probably should run over to the lawyers question thread.

These are interesting legal strategy questions, IMO

If she was tried for the MFH first I doubt it would ever make it into Kyron's case if there is one.

Unless they can show a succinct pattern between the two crimes and the pattern must closely match.

I remember the serial killer Corey Watts had admitted to murdering several woman and they gave him a plea deal. When he went on trial for murdering another woman later on the Judge would not let the prior evidence come in about the other murdered women. He said that it would prejudice the defendant and taint the jury.

I have seen cases where the Judge will refuse to include prior convictions and will not consider the pattern the same if the circumstances weren't exactly the same pattern. Example: May have kidnapped first victim and strangled, raped them but the next victim he may have invaded the home and stabbed them but no sexual assault.

Whomever the presiding Judge will be over any case that may happen concerning Terri Horman he/she will be very mindful that her constitutional rights are to be protected. He cannot allow any evidence in that he thinks is more prejudicial to her than probative. If he/she does so he knows that will leave a huge opening for an appeal and the conviction could be overturned if there is one.

Kyron's case is not based on the supposed hit man Terri was to have hired last year on Kaine.

Kyron's case will go forward on its own merits. It is really two issues that could result in two different criminal charges and are totally separate from each other.

imo