2010.07.26 Grand Jury begins

[Tuffy]

Is DNA and other blood evidence circumstantial, or hair and fiber, clothing or possessions found (trophies) in the suspect's possession, etc? I'm not asking that in a snarky way, it's a genuine question. I though circumstantial meant no physical evidence.

All of that is circumstantial. Surveillance video of the crime would be direct evidence. Circumstantial doesn't mean a lack of physical evidence, though its a common misconception.

 

[ami]

Circumstantial Evidence

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumstantial_evidence

Awesome, thanks for linking it!

 

[cypress]

I still wonder on what grounds Terri will be indicted -- Kaine and Desiree have asserted repeatedly and recently that they believe Kyron is alive. LE have stated they have no evidence of a murder. Two teachers who thought they saw Terri leave with Kyron is not equivalent to two teachers seeing Terri leave with Kyron. LE can't even prove Kyron has been abducted, not really. There are multiple witnesses who saw Kyron at school, but none, IMHO, who saw him leave. As unlikely as it is, it's possible Kyron walked away from the school on an adventure and fell down an embankment. It's possible he was abducted and murdered by a pedophile. Lie detector results are inadmissible, and cell phone pings as evidence could be made flimsy by an expert.

With regard to the MFH plot, it's a he said, she said, IMHO. If there's no corroborating evidence, I doubt a prosecutor would go in front of a Grand Jury with one piece of evidence, that being one man's word for it. And the man in question didn't even come forward of his own accord.

Putting aside all our biases with regard to this case, and I ask this opinion of those who believe Terri is guilty even moreso than those who are on the fence -- how do you reconcile a Grand Jury indictment based on what we know and are reasonably able to deduce with regard to evidence?

 

[goatman]

Good Golly!

Okay, so from the crash course I just received in circumstantial evidence...another question:

Do they present evidence (in its totality) to the gj, or just witnesses or both?

If there is circumstantial evidence could they then call an expert witness for why it only points to the conclusion they want it to?

For example (this didn't happen to my knowledge) if they were to say that they found a massive amount of bodily fluid somewhere (I won't go any farther than that mentality) could they then call an expert witness to explain why this evidence leads them to assume that whomever is guilty?

 

[Dee10]

I still wonder on what grounds Terri will be indicted -- Kaine and Desiree have asserted repeatedly and recently that they believe Kyron is alive. LE have stated they have no evidence of a murder. Two teachers who thought they saw Terri leave with Kyron is not equivalent to two teachers seeing Terri leave with Kyron. LE can't even prove Kyron has been abducted, not really. There are multiple witnesses who saw Kyron at school, but none, IMHO, who saw him leave. As unlikely as it is, it's possible Kyron walked away from the school on an adventure and fell down an embankment. It's possible he was abducted and murdered by a pedophile. Lie detector results are inadmissible, and cell phone pings as evidence could be made flimsy by an expert.

With regard to the MFH plot, it's a he said, she said, IMHO. If there's no corroborating evidence, I doubt a prosecutor would go in front of a Grand Jury with one piece of evidence, that being one man's word for it. And the man in question didn't even come forward of his own accord.

Putting aside all our biases with regard to this case, and I ask this opinion of those who believe Terri is guilty even moreso than those who are on the fence -- how do you reconcile a Grand Jury indictment based on what we know and are reasonably able to deduce with regard to evidence.

OH-OH (raising hand) let me give my opinion on this one!!! Because LE has presented their evidence to the prosecutor and perhaps a Judge (not sure on the Judge part lol) and they feel there is "enough" evidence to take to a GJ. We don't know all the evidence they have, but obviously they feel comfortable with it. :dance:

 

[goatman]

I still wonder on what grounds Terri will be indicted -- Kaine and Desiree have asserted repeatedly and recently that they believe Kyron is alive. LE have stated they have no evidence of a murder. Two teachers who thought they saw Terri leave with Kyron is not equivalent to two teachers seeing Terri leave with Kyron. LE can't even prove Kyron has been abducted, not really. There are multiple witnesses who saw Kyron at school, but none, IMHO, who saw him leave. As unlikely as it is, it's possible Kyron walked away from the school on an adventure and fell down an embankment. It's possible he was abducted and murdered by a pedophile. Lie detector results are inadmissible, and cell phone pings as evidence could be made flimsy by an expert.

With regard to the MFH plot, it's a he said, she said, IMHO. If there's no corroborating evidence, I doubt a prosecutor would go in front of a Grand Jury with one piece of evidence, that being one man's word for it. And the man in question didn't even come forward of his own accord.

Putting aside all our biases with regard to this case, and I ask this opinion of those who believe Terri is guilty even moreso than those who are on the fence -- how do you reconcile a Grand Jury indictment based on what we know and are reasonably able to deduce with regard to evidence?

For some reason, I can't 'thank' your post...so here is my thanks!

Bolded what got me thinking...and wanted to add maybe that is why some think that LE has a lot more evidence then they are sharing. And makes me darn curious about what DDS said...

Edited: Okay now I can! And Dee-10 we must have posted at the same time...because I didn't see yours before I posted.

 

[For The Kids]

I still wonder on what grounds Terri will be indicted -- Kaine and Desiree have asserted repeatedly and recently that they believe Kyron is alive. LE have stated they have no evidence of a murder. Two teachers who thought they saw Terri leave with Kyron is not equivalent to two teachers seeing Terri leave with Kyron. LE can't even prove Kyron has been abducted, not really. There are multiple witnesses who saw Kyron at school, but none, IMHO, who saw him leave. As unlikely as it is, it's possible Kyron walked away from the school on an adventure and fell down an embankment. It's possible he was abducted and murdered by a pedophile. Lie detector results are inadmissible, and cell phone pings as evidence could be made flimsy by an expert.

With regard to the MFH plot, it's a he said, she said, IMHO. If there's no corroborating evidence, I doubt a prosecutor would go in front of a Grand Jury with one piece of evidence, that being one man's word for it. And the man in question didn't even come forward of his own accord.

Putting aside all our biases with regard to this case, and I ask this opinion of those who believe Terri is guilty even moreso than those who are on the fence -- how do you reconcile a Grand Jury indictment based on what we know and are reasonably able to deduce with regard to evidence?

In all honesty IF Kyron had simply wondered out of school and fallen down an embankment there would be no reason for Terri not to cooperate with the police to find Kyron. Actually if this had happened you would expect Terri to appear to be a lot more upset than she appears to be. Likewise if he just fell down an embankment there would be no need for Dede to get immunity because she would know NOTHING...quite simply what we do know leaves me no doubts at all that Terri knows what happened to Kyron/

 

[nurseratchett]

The way this case has played out in the press, I would not bet a dime that LE doesn't have some damning info we are simply unaware of, such as teacher/witness statements, something from Dede, or other information similar to that.

IIRC, it was several days after Kaine originally learned of the MFH info before we had any knowledge of it. Also, last week's and week befores news evidences that LE can indeed keep secrets seeing as how DeDe and 2 others had been under investigation, had homes and other personal effects searched a week befroe media had info on that, and a GJ was convened right under our noses.
I'm betting they have some other info they feel confident about, and we simply aren't yet privvy to it. MOO

 

[liz b.]

I believe that even if this GJ chooses not to indict TH, the D.A. can go back later,and seek another indictment from another GJ. If the case changes, a new witness comes forward, new evidence is obtained. I believe that a D.A. can keep trying to indict. Although, the D.A. might face the anger of a community if a GJ keeps refusing to indict a suspect..... The community might feel LE does not have the right suspect...

All JMO

 

[ami]

I still wonder on what grounds Terri will be indicted -- Kaine and Desiree have asserted repeatedly and recently that they believe Kyron is alive. LE have stated they have no evidence of a murder. Two teachers who thought they saw Terri leave with Kyron is not equivalent to two teachers seeing Terri leave with Kyron. LE can't even prove Kyron has been abducted, not really. There are multiple witnesses who saw Kyron at school, but none, IMHO, who saw him leave. As unlikely as it is, it's possible Kyron walked away from the school on an adventure and fell down an embankment. It's possible he was abducted and murdered by a pedophile. Lie detector results are inadmissible, and cell phone pings as evidence could be made flimsy by an expert.

With regard to the MFH plot, it's a he said, she said, IMHO. If there's no corroborating evidence, I doubt a prosecutor would go in front of a Grand Jury with one piece of evidence, that being one man's word for it. And the man in question didn't even come forward of his own accord.

Putting aside all our biases with regard to this case, and I ask this opinion of those who believe Terri is guilty even moreso than those who are on the fence -- how do you reconcile a Grand Jury indictment based on what we know and are reasonably able to deduce with regard to evidence?

One thing we know is that LE isn't sharing their evidence with us. We simply don't know what evidence they are actually working with. Even the cell pings and LDT failures are based on Terri's words as told by Kaine, Desiree and Tony. So IF LE is focusing on Terri in the GJ, they have a lot more evidence than we know about.

 

[cypress]

In all honesty IF Kyron had simply wondered out of school and fallen down an embankment there would be no reason for Terri not to cooperate with the police to find Kyron. Actually if this had happened you would expect Terri to appear to be a lot more upset than she appears to be. Likewise if he just fell down an embankment there would be no need for Dede to get immunity because she would know NOTHING...quite simply what we do know leaves me no doubts at all that Terri knows what happened to Kyron/

If Kyron wandered off and fell down an embankment to his death, and thus Terri is innocent, and yet she is being accused of abducting and murdering her stepson who she raised and loved, how would she act? AFAIK, she was cooperative in the beginning. LE stated she was cooperative until she retained Houze.

 

[BeanE]

I still wonder on what grounds Terri will be indicted -- Kaine and Desiree have asserted repeatedly and recently that they believe Kyron is alive. LE have stated they have no evidence of a murder. Two teachers who thought they saw Terri leave with Kyron is not equivalent to two teachers seeing Terri leave with Kyron. LE can't even prove Kyron has been abducted, not really. There are multiple witnesses who saw Kyron at school, but none, IMHO, who saw him leave. As unlikely as it is, it's possible Kyron walked away from the school on an adventure and fell down an embankment. It's possible he was abducted and murdered by a pedophile. Lie detector results are inadmissible, and cell phone pings as evidence could be made flimsy by an expert.

With regard to the MFH plot, it's a he said, she said, IMHO. If there's no corroborating evidence, I doubt a prosecutor would go in front of a Grand Jury with one piece of evidence, that being one man's word for it. And the man in question didn't even come forward of his own accord.

Putting aside all our biases with regard to this case, and I ask this opinion of those who believe Terri is guilty even moreso than those who are on the fence -- how do you reconcile a Grand Jury indictment based on what we know and are reasonably able to deduce with regard to evidence?

Based on the way LE worded their statement at the most recent presser, that criminal behavior had occurred in that Kyron's parents had been denied him for the past 8 weeks, I believe they are seeking custodial interference and/or kidnapping against Terri. (For now, with homicide possibly down the road should they find his body, or come up with enough evidence for a no-body case.)

So, lacking a witness who saw them leave the school together, and not being able to say "just trust us! she took him from the school!", I think the prosecutor will use two things to prove it was Terri and only who took him from the school, and that she indeed did take him from the school:

- That Terri took him from the school, the prosecutor will use the questionnaire and the public pleas for people to call in as proof that Terri was the last person who saw Kyron before he disappeared, and more importantly, that no other person saw him after she did.

- That Kyron did indeed exit the school, the prosecutor will use the searches, as well the presence of numerous students and teachers in the school who did not see Kyron in the school from June 4 (post disappearance) until June 15 when the school closed.

The combination of the two - that no person saw Kyron after Terri, and that no person saw him in the school after the disappearance time which coincides with the last time Terri saw him, proves in a legal sense, circumstantially, that Terri and Terri alone took him from the school.

Then it's a simple matter to prove that Terri continued to withhold Kyron from his parents from that time until now. This constitutes (I think - IANAL) the legal elements for custodial interference and/or kidnapping.

It's iffy, but a good prosecutor could successfully convict. I think since GJs don't have the standard of evidence etc that a trial does, an indictment on either or both of these charges is pretty much a given at this point.

The sentence is only a few years for custodial interference - 5 years in Arizona - not sure about Oregon. It's enough time for them to either conduct searches and find Kyron's body, or to glean further evidence for a no-body case, should they decide to pursue that.

Again, IANAL, this is just based on my own paltry research in various cases.

 

[cypress]

I'm not all up with Oregon's laws about such things, but if LE had a plethora of evidence against Terri, why not simply arrest her?

What is making them choose a Grand Jury indictment versus an immediate arrest?

 

[goatman]

Thanks for your response!

I ask the following in all sincerity, and not in a snarky way. Internet tone is impossible to read, and it's been misread lately, so I don't want to come across as combative. I'm genuinely trying to reason this out.

Do you believe there is evidence of an abduction? e.g. eyewitness accounts, surveillance footage showing Kyron and Terri in a store that morning, etc. For the record, I don't.

Do you believe there is evidence of a murder? Again, for the record, based on recent statements by Kaine and Desiree, and them having been briefed, I don't.

If there is a wealth of evidence, why would Kaine and Desiree plea for friends of Terri's to come forward? If there is a wealth of evidence, why is there so much talk about feelings, instincts, and what is mostly odd behavior? If there is a wealth of evidence, wouldn't Kaine and Desiree allude to that, or "no comment" a lot? They couldn't even speculate about a motive. IIRC, they said they couldn't really fathom it or something to that effect, but not "no comment."

IMHO, LE has no evidence of an abduction or a murder. I tend to think in pictures, and I picture those events as bookends (literally), and I believe there is a pamphlet in between, but certainly not books.

Could LE indict her on the MFH? And then harming Kyron...using the MFH to prove a pattern? Or, if it can be shown that she was vague/dishonest about the dr. appt could they get her on neglecting or abusing (or something to that affect) Kyron (for example-from the top of my head: she didn't watch him walk into his classroom and knew that his teacher didn't know when his Dr. apt was-thus knowing his teacher wouldn't be on the look out for him?)? Do you see a lesser charge as more plausible or not being indicted at all?

 

[freefallzzzz]

Why do you think Kaine brought a backpack to the GJ..
I know from other videos when he has been downtown he has not carried one..

 

[cluciano63]

I am very curious about what charge they are going after as well.

 

[nosysw]

If Kyron wandered off and fell down an embankment to his death, and thus Terri is innocent, and yet she is being accused of abducting and murdering her stepson who she raised and loved, how would she act? AFAIK, she was cooperative in the beginning. LE stated she was cooperative until she retained Houze.

Okay, this might be just me...alot of posters say if they were innocent they wouldn't need a lawyer...and others cite cases of innocent people getting lambasted and having their lives ruined, even though innocent, because they didn't get a lawyer.

Here's how I think I would feel if I were innocent...First, I think I would feel that I didn't need a lawyer...Then, if my friends or whoever convinced me I did, I would feel like just about any old lawyer would do because I'm innocent...how much do they have to do? But I don't think I would go the the trouble and expense of hiring the best criminal defense lawyer around...(he was voted "best criminal defense lawyer in Portland for 2010" or something like that) because let's face it...I'm innocent and I'm not rich so what would I need to pay the big bucks for? But that's just how I think I would think...who knows?

 

[goatman]

Based on the way LE worded their statement at the most recent presser, that criminal behavior had occurred in that Kyron's parents had been denied him for the past 8 weeks, I believe they are seeking custodial interference and/or kidnapping against Terri. (For now, with homicide possibly down the road should they find his body, or come up with enough evidence for a no-body case.)

So, lacking a witness who saw them leave the school together, and not being able to say "just trust us! she took him from the school!", I think the prosecutor will use two things to prove it was Terri and only who took him from the school, and that she indeed did take him from the school:

- That Terri took him from the school, the prosecutor will use the questionnaire and the public pleas for people to call in as proof that Terri was the last person who saw Kyron before he disappeared, and more importantly, that no other person saw him after she did.

- That Kyron did indeed exit the school, the prosecutor will use the searches, as well the presence of numerous students and teachers in the school who did not see Kyron in the school from June 4 (post disappearance) until June 15 when the school closed.

The combination of the two - that no person saw Kyron after Terri, and that no person saw him in the school after the disappearance time which coincides with the last time Terri saw him, proves in a legal sense, circumstantially, that Terri and Terri alone took him from the school.

Then it's a simple matter to prove that Terri continued to withhold Kyron from his parents from that time until now. This constitutes (I think - IANAL) the legal elements for custodial interference and/or kidnapping.

It's iffy, but a good prosecutor could successfully convict. I think since GJs don't have the standard of evidence etc that a trial does, an indictment on either or both of these charges is pretty much a given at this point.

The sentence is only a few years for custodial interference - 5 years in Arizona - not sure about Oregon. It's enough time for them to either conduct searches and find Kyron's body, or to glean further evidence for a no-body case, should they decide to pursue that.

Again, IANAL, this is just based on my own paltry research in various cases.

Aye, but then we have that pesky interview by one (or more-dang my memory is failing me) of his classmates that said Kyron told him he was going to go see some electric display... if someone has the source right at hand that would be great (or if anyone wants it I can go digging)


##Not being snarky-just dialoging##

 

[goatman]

Why do you think Kaine brought a backpack to the GJ..
I know from other videos when he has been downtown he has not carried one..

Do you think that he was bringing evidence? Are witnesses allowed to just show up with evidence...doesn't that kind of mess up the official chain of command?

##not being snarky...just trying to understand###

 

[For The Kids]

If Kyron wandered off and fell down an embankment to his death, and thus Terri is innocent, and yet she is being accused of abducting and murdering her stepson who she raised and loved, how would she act? AFAIK, she was cooperative in the beginning. LE stated she was cooperative until she retained Houze.

To be honest i wonder if she did love Kyron. Personally I think she was jealous of him and that he had served his purpose for her now she had a child with Kaine.

I guess it depends on your definition of cooperative. I know that if i was asked to take a lie detector test i would take it there and then. I wouldnt keep walking out and nor would i make them wait several days to do one ( as i believe the third was did).

If one of my step children were missing and I was the last person to see them seriously I would stay at the police station for as long as need to make sure i was there immediately they wanted to ask me questions. I would make myself available to the police at ALL times. If needed i would go over what happened over and over. The last thing I would be worried about was IF MY HAIR LOOKED TOO ORANGE!