2010.07.26 Grand Jury begins

[nosysw]

To be honest i wonder if she did love Kyron. Personally I think she was jealous of him and that he had served his purpose for her now she had a child with Kaine.

I guess it depends on your definition of cooperative. I know that if i was asked to take a lie detector test i would take it there and then. I wouldnt keep walking out and nor would i make them wait several days to do one ( as i believe the third was did).

If one of my step children were missing and I was the last person to see them seriously I would stay at the police station for as long as need to make sure i was there immediately they wanted to ask me questions. I would make myself available to the police at ALL times. If needed i would go over what happened over and over. The last thing I would be worried about was IF MY HAIR LOOKED TOO ORANGE!

Exactly!!! ITA...(especially about the love for K...)

 

[For The Kids]

Aye, but then we have that pesky interview by one (or more-dang my memory is failing me) of his classmates that said Kyron told him he was going to go see some electric display... if someone has the source right at hand that would be great (or if anyone wants it I can go digging)


##Not being snarky-just dialoging##

Maybe the police think the child was mistaken timewise etc.

 

[SuziQ]

Is DNA and other blood evidence circumstantial, or hair and fiber, clothing or possessions found (trophies) in the suspect's possession, etc? I'm not asking that in a snarky way, it's a genuine question. I though circumstantial meant no physical evidence.

ITA with you, I was being a bit sarcastic about the notion itself (Not towards you!) There is a whole justice movement, defense attornies, bleeding hearts, The innocent project, who believe that DNA is junk science, all evidence can be explained away and is circumstantial, etc. I guess the point I was making is many people draw the line that people are not guilty unless there is a smoking gun and even at that, the same people still won't believe it.

 

[ami]

From the article (updated) linked in the original post:

"All three showed up just before noon; Tony and Desiree left the courthouse at 3 p.m., while Kaine left after 4 p.m. Their appearances were much longer than DeDe's, who was there for 10-15 minutes last week."

I wonder if Kaine just had a backpack filled with ideas, notes, records, journals, anything he could use to give accurate info?

 

[Tiki]

Why do you think Kaine brought a backpack to the GJ..
I know from other videos when he has been downtown he has not carried one..

I wonder ??
If it didn't have something to do with the GJ, I don't think he'd have it...maybe wouldn't even be allowed.

Maybe he's been keeping records/notes?

I seem to remember GA having a binder or something when he testified before the GJ in the Anthony case.

 

[Dee10]

Thanks for your response!

I ask the following in all sincerity, and not in a snarky way. Internet tone is impossible to read, and it's been misread lately, so I don't want to come across as combative. I'm genuinely trying to reason this out.

Do you believe there is evidence of an abduction? e.g. eyewitness accounts, surveillance footage showing Kyron and Terri in a store that morning, etc. For the record, I don't.

Do you believe there is evidence of a murder? Again, for the record, based on recent statements by Kaine and Desiree, and them having been briefed, I don't.

If there is a wealth of evidence, why would Kaine and Desiree plea for friends of Terri's to come forward? If there is a wealth of evidence, why is there so much talk about feelings, instincts, and what is mostly odd behavior? If there is a wealth of evidence, wouldn't Kaine and Desiree allude to that, or "no comment" a lot? They couldn't even speculate about a motive. IIRC, they said they couldn't really fathom it or something to that effect, but not "no comment."

IMHO, LE has no evidence of an abduction or a murder. I tend to think in pictures, and I picture those events as bookends (literally), and I believe there is a pamphlet in between, but certainly not books.

No problem, but even if Terri was arrested today...you may not have the answers to those questions until a possible trial.

Kaine and Desiree stated they were not told about the evidence or something to that effect. MO is they were "briefly" briefed, but they were very good about not talking about the investigation and said that many times. They want him to be alive and have said they don't want to go there, which I think we all can completely understand.

LE is different, what they have who knows, but they do have evidence that at least TH was involved in his disappearance. What the GJ will charge her with will be very interesting. The more evidence or witnesses that are brought forward to testify against Terri (for trial) the more likely the hope is she will plead guilty, say where Kyron is which of course will save the family anguish and the state the expense of a trial.

 

[TGIRecovered]

Why do you think Kaine brought a backpack to the GJ..
I know from other videos when he has been downtown he has not carried one..

Since he does not carry a purse, I'm guessing he used the backpack for things I would put in a big purse. Water bottle, mints or gum, book, notepad, etc. I would also take a sweater, since , in my experience, courtrooms can be very cold.

They probably all had quite a bit of time to kill, waiting for their turn to speak and being available in case they were called back to the courtroom after their initial testimony.

 

[ami]

ITA with you, I was being a bit sarcastic about the notion itself (Not towards you!) There is a whole justice movement, defense attornies, bleeding hearts, The innocent project, who believe that DNA is junk science, all evidence can be explained away and is circumstantial, etc. I guess the point I was making is many people draw the line that people are not guilty unless there is a smoking gun and even at that, the same people still won't believe it.

Ah, I get you and I agree. I remember when that juror was dismissed from the Scott Peterson case and he said, repeatedly, that he would have acquitted SP because there was no "real evidence" (well, that was a bad example, but...) - I was so upset about that, before the verdict was announced, and hoped it didn't reflect the feelings of the rest of the jury.

 

[freefallzzzz]

Do you think that he was bringing evidence? Are witnesses allowed to just show up with evidence...doesn't that kind of mess up the official chain of command?

##not being snarky...just trying to understand###

=)
Actually yes I did think he was bringing something in..
Going to into the courthouse I would think one would leave their stuff in their vehicle, I couldn't imagine why he would be wearing a backpack, as I seriously doubt he hopped on the max to go downtown.. =)

 

[Billylee]

Under the Oregon constitution and state law, a felony prosecution cannot proceed to trial unless an indictment has been issued by the grand jury. The grand jury is where the prosecutor, without the defendant or his attorney present, submit witness to the grand jury to determine whether or not to indict, or charge, the defendant.

http://www.arnoldlawfirm.com/oregon-jury-duty-lane-county.html#grandjury

I sat on a GJ in OR a few years back. Many states do not use the GJ method any more and skip that process. OR still uses the GJ method. I was on the GJ for 3 months, we convened twice a week (it was usually once a week) but do to an extremely high volume of "meth" cases, we went in twice a week. (Yet another cost of the drug problem!)

The GJ is solely convened for the purpose of trying to determine if the prosecution has enough evidence to go forward with an indictment. (And trust me, you have to keep reminded yourself of that when you're there, )

Only once during my tenure there did we hear from a person who was the subject of the indictment. And again, you are not there to determine innocence or guilt like a regular jury does. No matter what is said, you are looking to determine if the Prosecution has enough evidence to issue an indictment.

I have to say, I am not sure when a person who is subject of the indictment is allowed to testify before a GJ, all I can say is, they can. I think it is unusual, and I actually think it is probably the defense lawyer who would be advising their client against it, but that is JMO, cuz I'm no lawyer.

I can tell you this, it's a very interesting experience should you ever get the opportunity to serve on one.

 

[Angel4u2Whisper2]

Just want to clarify, I'm NOT a lawyer. But with a son in LE for 20 years who is now in charge of CID in this county... I have learned a lot about the law as far as police work and investigations go. And I have read tons of crime and courtroom novels, in which I learned a lot too. I am not brilliant but I do absorb.
And now I have to go... my son is in the hospital and I just came home to rest and see to the puppies. I didn't rest, so back I go.
Please... we need your prayers.

raying: I hope for whatever your son is in the hospital for that he gets well soon. My prayers and energy to you and your family at this time of need. :blowkiss:

 

[SuziQ]

I'm not all up with Oregon's laws about such things, but if LE had a plethora of evidence against Terri, why not simply arrest her?

What is making them choose a Grand Jury indictment versus an immediate arrest?

There is a good link a few pages back that explains that Oregon, like many states a grand jury is a requirement for felony charges.

 

[KeyboardCat]

I'm not sure why people automatically assume that DY, TY, and KH are only being called to testify to suspicion or gut instinct.

I think it is more likely that their purpose there is to give testimony about things related to custody... like who had him during the summers, what they did, where they went... things of that nature. I'm also betting that KH recounted the last morning he saw Kyron. I think they were probably giving the backdrop of his "blended family" and the way it functioned.

The prosecutor asks the questions. I'm sure he wanted the jurors to have a basic understanding of the family dynamics... particularly if one member of the blended family is being investigated.

I understand that many people here wish to not be part of the "witch hunt." I don't want to be part of that either. Desiree doesn't know what happened to her son, but she has suspicions... I'm not sure how that correlated to the police only having the same "gut feeling." We don't know what is going on, of course, because in Oregon the public information laws aren't like they are in Florida. But to assume that the government is trying to railroad Terri Horman 'because they got nothin' is the same presumptuous and damaging leap as trying to tie Terri to the stake. The police aren't in the business of just wasting public money, time, and resources... at least not with this deficit. Instead of analyzing and dissecting information, seems people just end up picking at each other over what sources are trustworthy.

Its as if this has already become the JonBenet forums, any information that doesn't fit a particular side will be attacked, scrutinized and even discredited, with no real purpose of justice, other than continuing to validate a particular side of the fence.

So they were called before the grand jury. They each probably have unique unbiased information about Kyron's daily life, and who had access to him. If they are asked about their subjective opinions, I'm sure they will offer them up, but to assume that all they can offer is eye rolling disgust of the evil step mother... is probably not true. Forgive me

 

[BeanE]

Aye, but then we have that pesky interview by one (or more-dang my memory is failing me) of his classmates that said Kyron told him he was going to go see some electric display... if someone has the source right at hand that would be great (or if anyone wants it I can go digging)


##Not being snarky-just dialoging##

I know. Remember recently LE asked for all video of witnesses who the media had interviewed? I'm going to bet that LE and/or the DA talked with TP and determined how shakeable he would be on the stand. Poor little TP may have already crumbled, or shown them that he crumbles easily.

It may also be that Houze has talked with TP too, and told the DA he won't be calling TP as a witness.

 

[BeanE]

From the article (updated) linked in the original post:

"All three showed up just before noon; Tony and Desiree left the courthouse at 3 p.m., while Kaine left after 4 p.m. Their appearances were much longer than DeDe's, who was there for 10-15 minutes last week."

I wonder if Kaine just had a backpack filled with ideas, notes, records, journals, anything he could use to give accurate info?

Plus bottles of water, sandwiches, chips, Twizzlers, books to read - you have no idea when you go in how long you're going to be in there. I'd bring supplies!

 

[goatman]

I'm not sure why people automatically assume that DY, TY, and KH are only being called to testify to suspicion or gut instinct.

I think it is more likely that their purpose there is to give testimony about things related to custody... like who had him during the summers, what they did, where they went... things of that nature. I'm also betting that KH recounted the last morning he saw Kyron. I think they were probably giving the backdrop of his "blended family" and the way it functioned.

The prosecutor asks the questions. I'm sure he wanted the jurors to have a basic understanding of the family dynamics... particularly if one member of the blended family is being investigated.

I understand that many people here wish to not be part of the "witch hunt." I don't want to be part of that either. Desiree doesn't know what happened to her son, but she has suspicions... I'm not sure how that correlated to the police only having the same "gut feeling." We don't know what is going on, of course, because in Oregon the public information laws aren't like they are in Florida. But to assume that the government is trying to railroad Terri Horman 'because they got nothin' is the same presumptuous and damaging leap as trying to tie Terri to the stake. The police aren't in the business of just wasting public money, time, and resources... at least not with this deficit. Instead of analyzing and dissecting information, seems people just end up picking at each other over what sources are trustworthy.

Its as if this has already become the JonBenet forums, any information that doesn't fit a particular side will be attacked, scrutinized and even discredited, with no real purpose of justice, other than continuing to validate a particular side of the fence.

So they were called before the grand jury. They each probably have unique unbiased information about Kyron's daily life, and who had access to him. If they are asked about their subjective opinions, I'm sure they will offer them up, but to assume that all they can offer is eye rolling disgust of the evil step mother... is probably not true. Forgive me

This is my first forum, so I therefore can not talk about the JB ones. I can state emphatically that I do not feel attacked or discredited. However, one of the things that I like about this forum is the scrutiny. I believe that it keeps us in check from unfounded rumors and allows us to be able to see the holes in and shore up our own arguments-or decide that we were wrong. What I see in this particular thread is a discussion about why each person would be at a GJ, what might have been presented, and why (what charges might be coming) they were. I do not feel that I (or anyone else) is automatically assuming that TY, DY, or KH are testifying to anything (your guess is as good as mine! :dance which is why we are discussing it. What are the possibilities? Why could or could not this have been it? What the heck is going on? ect.

I am not attacking you, merely suggesting how I see things (especially has a minority that isn't 100% on TH being guilty).

 

[evelyn24]

Yay for some real news!! I'm glad to see the investigation is progressing. I wonder how long the GJ process will take before they decide if there is enough evidence to indict someone?

 

[RoughlyCollie]

The prosecutor would never hold a grand jury if he/she didn't think the case should be brought for trial. A grand jury is implemented for the exact reason of making sure no one is a "scape goat".

I've always heard that a good prosecutor can get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich. If that happens, I guess the defendant can be called a scape-pig.

ETA: Goatman, I see you are happy about this. Don't blame ya!

 

[gwenabob]

Since he does not carry a purse, I'm guessing he used the backpack for things I would put in a big purse. Water bottle, mints or gum, book, notepad, etc. I would also take a sweater, since , in my experience, courtrooms can be very cold.

They probably all had quite a bit of time to kill, waiting for their turn to speak and being available in case they were called back to the courtroom after their initial testimony.

You are right about everything except one--The Multnomah County Courthouse is only cold in the winter. This time of year it is roasting! (It is very old and needs to be torn down and rebuilt--but we keep spending our money on stupid stuff around here.) Just an FYI. Maybe he was warned and brought a battery powered fan. Now that would be useful.

 

[goatman]

I've always heard that a good prosecutor can get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich. If that happens, I guess the defendant can be called a scape-pig.

ETA: Goatman, I see you are happy about this. Don't blame ya!

Not to be funny---but maybe we need some laughter at this point, so I will say it anyways:

Being called slovenly would make more sense if the defendant were a scape-pig...just sayin':angel:



Edited: too lazy to include the right link (the one posted in the other thread I was reading) but here is another link to TH being called slovenly http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gbGdQw6HkTboaz5vbbQNIg3_Ku3wD9HA6TOG1