2011.01.05 Hearing TES Volunteer Computer Subpoena

You can tell a juror on the verdict phase of the trial "don't worry/concern yourself with the punishment phase" but...they are still going to be skittish about the ramifications of convicting someone, and prosecutors will want to get rid of as many possible "reasonable doubts" as they can. This seems like an easy one to avoid.

Glad you stayed!
If I could only get back the long two hours I had to spend in a jury room with this odd stubborn man who kept imploring upon us how can we be so SURE, one hundred percent SURE. That section of the jury instructions was read aloud to him, twice, detailing that evidence establishes a particular point to a moral certainty and that it is beyond dispute that any reasonable alternative is possible. It does not mean that no doubt exists. It finally worked when I asked him is his doubt so much so that it would keep him up at night. It worked but I felt at that point I could call up the President and tell him we could successfully negotioate property peace between the Israela and Palestinians. I cannot tell you how stubborn he was!!! You are so right people can be skittish to points that surprise you. I am hoping the jury will have a calm confidence in Mrs. Drane Burdick and Mr. Ashton, and even by watching the judge's rulings as the trial goes along.

I agree, this is not their first rodeo and one of the things I trust they routinely do is be proactive about what questions may linger in a jurors mind and try to answer them from jump. I think the case would be an interesting one for law students to study.
How to anger the judge 101 by Jose Baez and Cheney Mason. Kidding , I am kidding.
 
I think that's a key feature of the ruling and one that I'm happy about, from a prosecution standpoint. I would have liked to have seen the judge clarify that, while the scope was broad, and Baez needs to be more specific and provide background for a review, he isn't required to "prove" the existence of anything. In any event, as a prosecutor I would craft something to try and close the "loophole" my opponent will argue exists when we get to trial. I'm speaking here of the "body location" issue which seems to be the only one left for defense to argue (how pathetic is that?) All other points I would stick to my guns (for example.....of course Casey's partying during Caylee's absence needs to get into court. I'm not going to let a possible appellate argument get in the way of insisting on those type of issues.)

You don't think the plant and bug evidence will dismiss any question of body location and timing?

And as I said in a previous post, what's the big deal about location anyway? She could have chucked the bag(s) into the bush 30 miles away and the primary evidence still stands.
 
LOL

Didn't Canada largely adopt a system based on British Common Law?. Lots of similarities. That said, Scotland is the only UK country to have a Not Proven verdict.

Yes, we did and I was just doing a silly "flyby" - I did not know that about Scotland and "Not Proven". Really - thanks - it's an interesting tidbit.
 
Yes, Baez speculated. His testimony sucked. He should have known A, B and C a year ago. Etc. But in keeping the "big picture" in mind (which includes the inevitable appeals of what I HOPE will be a conviction of Casey), my overall thoughts are:

We can analyze the sufficiency of Baez's subpoena, it's breadth, it's legality and more generally whether he sucks as a lawyer (he's not brilliant - he's a local yokel who hangs at the jail to get clients). And on that basis decide whether his motion, as drafted, should be denied. It's fun to analyze all this and heck, that's what WebSleuths is for. But in the grand scheme of things, all it means is that appellate lawyers will agree with us and say "Yeah, that subpoena and motion totally sucked" and "WebSleuthers were right - Baez's response (he accused JJ of pointing to a map) was lame", etc. They'll argue ineffective assistance of counsel. They will say a crucial part of the defense was the question of how long the body was at the Suburban Drive spot and, through Baez's screw-ups, the question was never fully explored. Baez should have asked at the deposition, he knew about it at that point, etc. etc. But he didn't and that hurt Casey's defense. The risk of having a conviction overturned is so easily addressed at this point. Prosecutors reach an agreement with the blogger for an "in camera" review of stuff and everything is kept private. The blogger can even sit in the room while the review takes place. Plus, the whole process saves time and money - why? Because the case will no longer include:

(1) Three days of trial with Baez submitting blog posts by JJ to the jury and suggesting JJ omitted photos of the body location which JJ suggested he searched but didn't photograph. At summation, Baez will tell the jury they can't convict if there is any reasonable doubt and in my experience, some jurors find the most RIDICULOUS things to constitute "reasonable doubt" (especially if they are against the death penalty).

(2) Appellate arguments based on failure of defense counsel to fully explore an issue that was crucial to Casey's defense.

Who cares if Baez didn't do a good job with his overly broad subpoena and whether he screwed up at the JJ dep by not asking some questions? Prosecutors, and probably JJ too, want Casey Anthony to be convicted so probably, they'll get together on agreeing to some reasonable review of JJ's stuff to avoid (1) and (2) above. It won't hurt prosecutors and if it's a limited review with JJ present, it won't hurt JJ too much. I think the parties will be smart and arrange this.

Because of the above, I just don't see the point in arguing that Baez isn't entitled to A, B or C because his subpoena is overly broad, or he should have asked such and such question at such and such time, or whatever. Yes, you can dig up old stuff showing Baez knew A, B and C (or should have) one year ago but.....the State isn't prosecuting Baez, it's prosecuting Casey Anthony and assuming a conviction is obtained, Baez's scew-ups will benefit Casey in the end. Her appellate lawyers will not be boneheads like Baez. They will be brilliant lawyers from huge law firms with pro bono sections that do death penalty appeals. Which is why you will sometimes see prosecutors helping the defense (if it won't hurt the prosecution's case). Let's face it - with all Casey's antics, the trunk of the car, coffin flies, partying, lying to LE....there isn't much of a defense here. Baez doesn't have much to work with so defense has decided on "location of body" as one of a handful of possible defenses, and therefore prosecutors will want to make sure defense can't complain about not having evidence to support its (ridiculous) defense.

Hi NJ, thanks for popping in and staying on. :)

I have already expressed my opinion that I think HHJP's ruling was legally justified based on the arguments and facts presented to him.

But of course you make an excellent point about appeal and IAC issues. What I hope will happen is that the SA will either subpoena JJ themselves and get his alleged photos of Suburban Drive (which probably don't exist), or JJ will provide a statement under oath that no such photos exist. IIRC the objection filed by his lawyer sort of coyly avoided saying whether any such photos actually existed.
 
I think HHJP is taking a little gamble on this one as you say. But it is an extremely minor one. he telegraphed this the previous hearing when he stated that "he was not afriad of trying the case twice" as a warning to those who were seeking to abuse concerns about appeals to accomplish inappropriate goals now. And that's what JB was doing here. he submitted a very broadly framed demand for a search of pretty much everything and anything in JJ's life. While his stated purpose was looking for pictures which might be exculpatory, it was pretty clear to all involved that he was looking for writings, blog posts and personal opinions with which he might use to accuse or undermine the witnesses credibility. He was being disengenius with the court and HHJP called him on it. He left the ruling without prejudice so they are free to file a less broad request that does not include the fishing expedition. HHJP knew exactly what JB was up to and nailed him on it.

While the defense can raise a valid appeal based on the exclusion of eculpatory evidence. In order to do so the evidence in question must actually exist and it must in fact be exculpatory. It must be something that would have had a clear chance of changing the juries decision.

HHJP made a decision of informed and calculated risk. The defense was clearly taking inappropriate and unethical liberties by using the leverage "you don't wan't to risk an appeal", and had been doing so for awile, and had been warned several times regarding it. In this case HHJP cut them off and basically said go for it. See if you can sell this to an appeals court.


:clap::clap::clap: Excellent post, faefrost! You summed it up beautifully!

There were two parts to this motion...the surface, obvious request for photos, and the 'hope you don't notice' desired entrance to Mr Jordan's posts/comments and his life in general. HHJP noticed.


KC's righs as the defendant must be protected but that fact does not mean that everyone else's rights can be ignored. Mr Jordan also has rights that must be upheld by the court.

She is promised a 'fair' trial not a 'everything swings in your favour' trial. IMO HHJP has no fear of the appeals process. He understands the law and upholds it fairly....for everyone.
 
We all agree here that TM's testimony will be very powerful. Then there is the fact that JB is reluctant to the point of being in contempt of court to turn over the expert reports. Now why would that be? Is it possible that these reports do not favor his client and he is trying to buy time until they can find another suspect from the TES searchers. Because that is what appears to be happening here. I think JB's attack the other day against JJ in court was not very wise on his part when we all know JJ was put right smack in the middle of this by defense's PI and their witness LB. JJ did not "insert himself" into this case as much as defense pulled him in kicking and screaming. I can't believe JB is mistakenly misleading the court with his statements as much as it is deliberate misinformation he is just throwing out there. Not going unnoticed by the judge and don't you think this will backfire on JB big time? Keeping in mind we all know (though most hate to admit) that JB needs to do his job to defend his client but misrepresenting facts before the court should not go unpunished. And thanks for staying on and posting, by-the-way. jmo

Forgive me, but who is TM? I don't have this down as you all down with the abbreviations, etc. Are you speaking of Tim of ESearch?

Also, if anyone could recap the JJ and Laura Buchanan thing in a short paragraph. I did not know she had anything to do with him. Really appreciate it. Thanks again.
 
3) When asked by HHJP, Baez could not answer in the affirmative that JJ was the photographer.

Based on 3, I can't agree with you that HHJP should have granted the defense their subpoena.

What wrong turn did I take?

Again, I defer to your legal knowledge, here.
Actually, I'm not sure the subpoena could have been granted without some tinkering but....to answer your question, I don't think Baez's inability to say for sure who took the photos should result in the denial of the subpoena. We're not even sure who took photos in JJ's possession so how should Baez know? Why can't the issue of the photographer's identity be part of the Subpoena? Does Baez have a reasonable belief that JJ might have photos of the "magic site"? Does it matter if JJ personally took these photos or if he possesses someone else's photos? In Baez's mind, if a photo exists of the magic site showing less water than folks have said existed and you can argue a body should have been visible....he will want to see that photo and use it. I don't think it matters *who* took the photos. Even if it did, how would Baez be expected to know for sure?
 
You don't think the plant and bug evidence will dismiss any question of body location and timing?

And as I said in a previous post, what's the big deal about location anyway? She could have chucked the bag(s) into the bush 30 miles away and the primary evidence still stands.

Don't forget the fact that animals had scattered her tiny remains over quite a large area! That has to take some time, don't you think?
 
I think that's a key feature of the ruling and one that I'm happy about, from a prosecution standpoint. I would have liked to have seen the judge clarify that, while the scope was broad, and Baez needs to be more specific and provide background for a review, he isn't required to "prove" the existence of anything. In any event, as a prosecutor I would craft something to try and close the "loophole" my opponent will argue exists when we get to trial. I'm speaking here of the "body location" issue which seems to be the only one left for defense to argue (how pathetic is that?) All other points I would stick to my guns (for example.....of course Casey's partying during Caylee's absence needs to get into court. I'm not going to let a possible appellate argument get in the way of insisting on those type of issues.)
Oh wow, thanks for this bit of education.

Seriously, I love having lawyers here willing to discuss this stuff. I'm glad you decided to stick around, NJ.

OK, so Baez isn't required to prove there are chocolate chip cookies.

But...

Is Baez required to show a probable reason why the target of the subpoena for the cookies, say Jane Doe is the owner of the chocolate chip cookies? Or would it be a violation of her rights for a judge to issue a subpoena because Baez believes Jane Doe has chocolate chip cookies?

Actually, any lawyer can chime in on my questions. I appreciate it so much!
 
What I hope will happen is that the SA will either subpoena JJ themselves and get his alleged photos of Suburban Drive (which probably don't exist), or JJ will provide a statement under oath that no such photos exist. IIRC the objection filed by his lawyer sort of coyly avoided saying whether any such photos actually existed.
I couldn't agree more with your hope/strategy. I so want to move past this issue and don't want it to haunt this case. Personally, I want a conviction very badly. Upheld. And then I would like the State of Florida to put this appalling monster to sleep forever.
 
Not a big mystery there. Of course the reports aren't favorable to his client. Truth, logic and reason are not on the side of JB's client.

In my view, all of this *stuff* is just speculation (did JJ insert himself into case or not; did Kronk want fame; do George and Cindy know what happened; was dissing JJ in court stupid or mean?) and will fall by the wayside when Casey is convicted. To ensure a conviction, I'd want to squash as many "reasonable doubt" points that I could and would therefore encourage all parties to hand over stuff (in camera) as liberally as possible. As a prosecutor, I would give in and even HELP the defense on this point as much as I could b/c it wouldn't be time consuming and the results wouldn't hurt my case. Truth would be on my side and it would help towards a conviction.

He can be sanctioned at some later point. You punish the lawyer, not the client. At this point, I would be as deferential as possible to Baez's defense so we don't hear him (or Casey's appellate lawyers) whine later on. I'm sure JJ and the photographer and everyone else can work together towards this larger goal.

I have to disagree with this. Using this logic, IMO, the trial should be put off until 2012 or 2013 so JB can depose all 4,000 TES searchers. He should then be allowed to subpoena all travel records from airlines, busses, etc. and depose anyone who was anywhere near Orlando during the time period between July 15, 2008 and December 11, 2008, because they might have gone off and searched on their own with no affiliation to TES. And that STILL would not be enough, because it is within speculation there were still more people who searched who maybe drove in or something, with no paper trail to lead to them. Basically, anyone on the planet having any interest in this case could have made their way to Orlando, searched over by Suburban, and taken pictures.

Bottom line for me, there are laws against unlawful search and seizure, and those laws are not just applicable for people in custody. IMO, granting the defense motion over JJ would be saying because person A got arrested and charged with a crime, you, person B, are going to have certain rights taken away from you.
 
Also, that doesn't take away the fact that Caylee was decomposing in Casey's trunk as early as June 27th, 2008 when Casey abandoned her car. Even if they are saying that someone else moved the body (which I don't see how they can prove that WITH the evidence they have - plant growth, bugs, animal activity, etc...) it doesn't take away from the fact that Caylee was in the trunk of that car... deceased!
 
Actually, I'm not sure the subpoena could have been granted without some tinkering but....to answer your question, I don't think Baez's inability to say for sure who took the photos should result in the denial of the subpoena. We're not even sure who took photos in JJ's possession so how should Baez know? Why can't the issue of the photographer's identity be part of the Subpoena? Does Baez have a reasonable belief that JJ might have photos of the "magic site"? Does it matter if JJ personally took these photos or if he possesses someone else's photos? In Baez's mind, if a photo exists of the magic site showing less water than folks have said existed and you can argue a body should have been visible....he will want to see that photo and use it. I don't think it matters *who* took the photos. Even if it did, how would Baez be expected to know for sure?

I think we are running into an a part, b part problem here. A part being the request for photos and b part being the request for postings and comments made by Mr Jordan. Do you think that HHJP should have granted Mr Baez and the defense access to Mr Jordan's comments on line as well as the search photos (if any exist)?
 
Is Baez required to show a probable reason why the target of the subpoena for the cookies, say Jane Doe is the owner of the chocolate chip cookies? Or would it be a violation of her rights for a judge to issue a subpoena because Baez believes Jane Doe has chocolate chip cookies?
There's isn't a specific law that would govern every situation (whether it be chocolate chip cookies or photos of crime searches). Every situation is different. I think if Baez could show he has a good faith/reasonable belief that someone's computer has photos of the crime scene, it won't matter who owns the cookies/photos or who took them, and the court could order a limited, private review of the cookies. If I were a judge, the fact that someone posted photos of a different search (Blanchard) taken by a private person and not LE, combined with a statement that the poster might have searched the area around the crime scene and a few other things....would be enough to order some kind of limited review or at least require a meeting in chambers of both sides, plus JJ's attorney where I'd work out an acceptable arrangement for all. I wouldn't just deny the motion. I'd order everyone to get their butts in chambers for a meeting. I think this will eventually happen.
 
Using this logic, IMO, the trial should be put off until 2012 or 2013 so JB can depose all 4,000 TES searchers. He should then be allowed to subpoena all travel records from airlines, busses, etc. and depose anyone who was anywhere near Orlando during the time period between July 15, 2008 and December 11, 2008, because they might have gone off and searched on their own with no affiliation to TES.
I don't think all of that is necessary just to see if JJ's computer has photos of the crime scene. Has JB asked to see all those travel records? Or to depose each and every one of the TES searchers? If not, they wouldn't be required.
 
I have to disagree with this. Using this logic, IMO, the trial should be put off until 2012 or 2013 so JB can depose all 4,000 TES searchers. He should then be allowed to subpoena all travel records from airlines, busses, etc. and depose anyone who was anywhere near Orlando during the time period between July 15, 2008 and December 11, 2008, because they might have gone off and searched on their own with no affiliation to TES. And that STILL would not be enough, because it is within speculation there were still more people who searched who maybe drove in or something, with no paper trail to lead to them. Basically, anyone on the planet having any interest in this case could have made their way to Orlando, searched over by Suburban, and taken pictures.

Bottom line for me, there are laws against unlawful search and seizure, and those laws are not just applicable for people in custody. IMO, granting the defense motion over JJ would be saying because person A got arrested and charged with a crime, you, person B, are going to have certain rights taken away from you.

Thank you for your post Lanie and may I add you forgot all the protesters who were standing around the Anthony house around the time ICA first got arrested. They probably had cameras with them and very likely parked up the street and took pictures of the scenery around the Anthony house on the way there and very likely showed them to their friends and relatives to show them how marshy the land was and blah blah blah. What about serving them with search and seizure? I mean how silly are we going to get with all of this? What jurist would believe JJ and whatever photos of a perhaps location over the experts who will testify about the water levels?
 
I think we are running into an a part, b part problem here. A part being the request for photos and b part being the request for postings and comments made by Mr Jordan.
Exactly! You are right that these are 2 different issues. The possibility of photos of the crime scene are one thing. JJ's comments about Casey/Caylee/the search/George/Cindy, etc. are another thing. I don't know enough about Part B so can't answer that. Have been focused on Part A. I guess if prosecutors call JJ as a witness, defense might throw some of his statements at him to hurt his "credibility" as a witness. I haven't read JJ's blog in question and so can't comment on the proper result. Thoughts?
 
What about serving them with search and seizure?
What do you mean serving them with "search and seizure"? Anyhow, I don't think the protesters identified themselves so how would Baez even be able to "serve them with search and seizure"? He's asking for stuff from an identifiable guy who actually blogged on the searches and the case. It's tempting to throw up one's hands and say "well, if you go down that road you'll end up with the entire universe". Baez needs to be thrown a bone so the integrity of the verdict is preserved and then we move on to the next issue or the trial.
 
I have to disagree with this. Using this logic, IMO, the trial should be put off until 2012 or 2013 so JB can depose all 4,000 TES searchers. He should then be allowed to subpoena all travel records from airlines, busses, etc. and depose anyone who was anywhere near Orlando during the time period between July 15, 2008 and December 11, 2008, because they might have gone off and searched on their own with no affiliation to TES. And that STILL would not be enough, because it is within speculation there were still more people who searched who maybe drove in or something, with no paper trail to lead to them. Basically, anyone on the planet having any interest in this case could have made their way to Orlando, searched over by Suburban, and taken pictures.

Bottom line for me, there are laws against unlawful search and seizure, and those laws are not just applicable for people in custody. IMO, granting the defense motion over JJ would be saying because person A got arrested and charged with a crime, you, person B, are going to have certain rights taken away from you.

ITA

J Perry's decision was sound imo. And crucially, he left the door open. Baez can file a new motion IF he can overcome the lack of factual basis in the first one.
 
Am I missing something here, I obviously bow down to greater minds than mine with legal expertise but is there usually this much attention given to worrying about appellate issues later?
If prosecutors/judges were this concerned in every murder case they try about appellate issues then every legally insufficient motion ever filed by a defense attorney would be granted with the words "mustn't give them an in later". I'm not getting it. If Baez had one comment from JJ posted on the net that he took those photos I'm sure Judge Perry would have granted the motion. Baez was on a fishing expedition and the judge has mentioned this in the past that he won't condone it nor use public funds for Baez to take that fishing expedition. The Judge also said the other day that he "didn't mind trying this case twice, hell, I've seen cases in the states tried 3 times. It didn't change the outcome in the end.

I just think there is too much focus on appellate problems down the track. If judge Perry has the law on his side and ruled correctly on that motion, that there was no legal basis to grant it then the judge ruled correctly and the defense moves on with the next motion.
 

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
140
Guests online
609
Total visitors
749

Forum statistics

Threads
627,498
Messages
18,546,632
Members
241,311
Latest member
ryanm4joe
Back
Top