2011.01.30 new search north and west of Portland

[sarx]

Would a dog be able to detect a scent if the body is concealed in a plastic container? I'm thinking of a big Rubbermaid type container.

Yes they would.

 

[GrainneDhu]

I posted earlier the weekend weather going back to early Dec. And most of it was out of the ideal range for these dogs to work, according to one of their handlers, IIRC. There were a couple of other viable weekends in there, though.

However, a local who hikes there all the time says there has been snow cover in some of the area that was searched. She drove over during the search to verify that searchers were in her hiking area. So, maybe the dogs don't like snow. Or maybe their handlers don't like snow. Or cold. IDK

It's really not so much the actual temperatures on the day of the search as it is the forecast. At least, for a search like this (not an emergency situation). As we all know forecasts can be inaccurate but that's the best we have for plahning activities in advance. If the forecasts for the viable weekends weren't as good as the actual weather was, then they wouldn't call SAR out.

As for dogs searching in the snow, it all depends on what they've been trained for. In my area, where there's likely to be snow cover for 5-6 months a year, the dogs and handlers just go right on training. If you live here, snow is just one of those things. I imagine it's the same way the Portlanders seem to feel about rain.

Dogs do best in the environment they've been trained for. So a dog trained for the conditions in the Great Plains will not be as effective in the desert as a dog trained in the desert. And that dog trained in the desert is likely to be boggled by conditions on the Great Plains.

Avalanche dogs can find victims under as much as 30 feet of snow but a dog that has never trained in the snow might miss someone who is under only a foot of snow.

Same thing goes for handlers. I live in the Great Plains, so my personal rule is that so long as it is above zero F, I go outside to play with my dogs and do some training (not SAR, I no longer do that). My California born and raised husband looks at me like I'm insane when I go out on those days.

Pretty much the same way I look at him when the temperature gets over 85 and he's buzzing around outside.

 

[Jaxson]

Since they searched more than one area and called the information they had 'location specific' is it possible they received results of soil testing from the Horman truck tires or interior which had particular minerals or soil composition leading them to these particular sites? Be easy on me now....lol

 

[Jaxson]

Since they searched more than one area and called the information they had 'location specific' is it possible they received results of soil testing from the Horman truck tires or interior which had particular minerals or soil composition leading them to these particular sites? Be easy on me now....lol

 

[cluciano63]

I am baffled again...weren't the areas they searched yesterday fairly far apart? How specific could the info be? I am wondering if they received a tip about certain places that a POI may have been seen at other times in the past? Either biking, or hiking or whatever...

 

[pinktoes]

I think I might have posted that from media reports earlier. IIRC, 10 or 11 separate search locations, ranging from 3 to 6 acres each. Although another report didn't include that 3 acres part; it just said of "up to 6 acres each".

Either way, given the terrain, that's just a HUGE amount of doggie paws on the ground. Huge.

But, "specific" enough to put all the searches in a generally close area--and none on Sauvie Island like before, for instance. Or in another city or similarly wide, widespread areas.

 

[GrainneDhu]

I too am unhappy with the searching not being on-going, if the lead is so good. I think it is horrible to tell the parents that they have such a great lead and then tell tell the public closure may be near, only to turn around and say there is no rush to find Kyron and they will search again at some point in the future. What??

A tip is only as good as the person who turns it in. Someone can be sincere, can have the best intentions, can seem extremely credible and yet still be wrong because they are simply human.

Think of the Amber Dubois case where the "last" sighting placed her at the end of the school driveway. We know now that she never made it that far, so the person who thought they saw her there was mistaken. I doubt that they did it maliciously and I bet they still feel like they really did see her there.

Heck, it doesn't even take trauma for a person to have a false memory. My husband's youngest brother can describe vividly how his great-grandmother would sit in her rocking chair in the kitchen while she peeled apples to make pie. He can tell you how she had the knack of taking the peel off in one long piece and gave it to him to eat and play with. This memory is very, very clear and convincing in his mind, even though he knows intellectually that Great-Grandma died four years before he was born.

If LE searched these particular areas on the basis of a single tip, there's always a chance that the tipster made an honest mistake. The tipster could be absolutely convinced of their information and yet still be wrong.

 

[Shadowboy]

I am baffled again...weren't the areas they searched yesterday fairly far apart? How specific could the info be? I am wondering if they received a tip about certain places that a POI may have been seen at other times in the past? Either biking, or hiking or whatever...

Yeah, I'm baffled about that, too. Conjecture: Maybe hunters (?) found pieces of evidence in widely dispersed locations? Clothing?

We know from MSM (okay, if we trust MSM) *whatever* was found is 1) "hard evidence" and 2) compelling enough for DY to believe Ky is no longer living. To me, that doesn't say "cell phone pings."

I fear Ky-related evidence turned up in at least two locations. This would make sense if "whoever" disappeared him wanted to, also, "disappear" any indication of his body's location. Hide the body, disperse the clothes. IM (sad)O

 

[gwenabob]

Posted this awhile back, but need to squish this one before it becomes "fact". Dogs that are NOT trained in extreme temps will quite possibly have trouble in them. It does Not however mean that dogs can't "sniff" in those temps. Think about avalanche dogs whose whole job is to sniff out people buried under snow, often in very very cold temps. It's an issue of training, not capability.

I understand you are an expert, so I appreciate your input. I was just going by the story:

"Weather conditions prevented the searching of these two locations a month or six weeks ago because of the snow up there, and dogs are not effective when it's below 40 degrees," said Multnomah County Sheriff's Sgt. Keith Krafve, a supervisor on the Kyron Horman Task Force."

Read more: http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2011...-Oregon-boy/UPI-18491296409760/#ixzz1CfZzqqYC

 

[cluciano63]

Did LE say "hard evidence"? I didn't see that.

 

[Shadowboy]

Clu: I mis-wrote. Solid, not hard. From today's Oregonian article, referencing DY:

"She said she knew about plans for Sunday's search since a briefing with investigators before Thanksgiving. She said they told her and Kyron's father, Kaine Horman, they had solid new evidence."

 

[Amster]

I can't believe this scattered searching! Is it because they won't use everyday, ordinary people to want to help?? These searchers have jobs and don't always live that close. Searching one or 2 days a month....unacceptable!

 

[Wondergirl]

Sure, this isn't late at all for HRD dogs to be called out. They are out there looking for remains or trace evidence.

Sorry, Sarx, I guess I misunderstood your post.

When you said there are very few dogs that can run a trail more than a month old, you must have meant a scent trail, not HRD Dogs.

ETA: Thanks for the answer on how long an HRD Dog can track. A thousand year old scent?! Wow.

 

[pinktoes]

ShadowBoy: I sometimes think they might be looking for implements/tools/weapon used, and those could be in a separate location from his remains. Or, there could be 2 crime scenes they want to find evidence in. I don't know how much I need to say about that. Um, an assault of some sort in one location, then a murder in another. Or, other possibilities.

 

[cluciano63]

I believe Kyron will be NG's featured case on Friday of this week, on her missing persons show, but do not hold me to it...read it elsewhere.

I don't understand why the parents' were given so much information as to lead them to believe that this would be the conclusion...at least that is what I am hearing from Desiree. LE may well have a viable lead, but why bring this poor mother to the brink each time? Why not just tell her, we are searching based on leads and this weekend will be the next time we search...

 

[Shadowboy]

I can't believe this scattered searching! Is it because they won't use everyday, ordinary people to want to help?? These searchers have jobs and don't always live that close. Searching one or 2 days a month....unacceptable!

IMO, EVERY search needs to be completed by trained professionals. This isn't a matter of pokin' around in your backyard.

And .. IMO this latest search area makes more sense than SI.

Not sayin' some important evidence *isn't* in the Willamette/Columbia river system (maybe the clothes worn by the perp as he/she disappeared Ky along a forested back road) ... but, let's face it. Plenty of serial killers in the PNW established "dumping grounds" in even less heavily forested, less remote areas than present in NW Portland.

Some remains of the Green River Killer were just recently found; it's widely believed there are Ted Bundy victims unidentified and lost to the elements.

Give the MSCO and, especially, the volunteer SAR folks a break. It's big country. Hard to believe, given Skyline's proximity to PDX. But it's true.

 

[cluciano63]

Still, would TES or another experienced group that can work every day be harmful?

 

[Shadowboy]

ShadowBoy: I sometimes think they might be looking for implements/tools/weapon used, and those could be in a separate location from his remains. Or, there could be 2 crime scenes they want to find evidence in. I don't know how much I need to say about that. Um, an assault of some sort in one location, then a murder in another. Or, other possibilities.

Hey, Pinktoes. As with most of us following this case, I haven't a clue (literally). I have opinions aplenty. But I can't support them with MSM citings. We'll just have to ponder "other possibilites" until LE releases more info. :banghead:

 

[Shadowboy]

Still, would TES or another experienced group that can work every day be harmful?

IDK. I have little info re: TES. (Ky’s is the only case I have followed or will follow.) Isn't that a horse-mounted search team? Having grown up on horseback about 30-40 miles as the crow flies from Skyline in an area with similar topography and vegetation … this, I do know. Horseback searches would be impossible in the heavily forested areas of the latest search.

A horse can’t negotiate a thicket of blackberry or Oregon grape or salmon berry or vine maple. A rider can’t take a horse through dense conifer cover. Just can’t. Riders and horses would need to stay on established trails or roads. Not sure what that would “buy.”

Equestrian teams were called in for SI searches. Makes sense for open fields.

As to “another experienced group that can work every day.” Not sure how to answer that.

 

[CathyinTexas]

Take a look at this picture. The man who shot the police officer lives across from the place the witness "Chas" saw a boy who looked liked Kyron and a woman with red hair. Could this be the reason police are looking in that area?

http://www.kval.com/news/local/114965034.html