2011.03.07 Dorothy Sims Docs RE: Chloroform & Plant Growth *Merged*

[Capri]

Thx again Fae, will ask a mod to merge threads to the

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community > Featured Case Discussion > Caylee Anthony 2 years old
New motion - Chloroform
thread.

 

[Horace Finklestein]

So the JD is now an expert ME? I hope the defense experts concur with her filing. They made Joypath giggle on the other thread which made me smile from ear to ear.
DCS would slaughter any MD who didn't have complete documentation of every intervention s/he initiated on a client and yet here she comes, hypocrite to the max, bolstering the reportless defense with questionable scientific understanding.
And she's doing it pro-bono. It's mind boggling to me actually.
Fools rush in where angels fear to tread....so go for it Dorothy. Caylee karma is strong enough to ruin you like it has everyone else on this DT.

My thoughts exactly. A JD doesn't make you an expert on anything, and neither does reading a bunch of journal articles. She has told people her tactics - she seeks to discredit people by very devious means - taking things out of context, trying to use their past research against them, etc. It's all a bunch of nonsense.

 

[kaRN]

My thoughts exactly. A JD doesn't make you an expert on anything, and neither does reading a bunch of journal articles. She has told people her tactics - she seeks to discredcit people by very devious means - taking things out of context, trying to use their past research against them, etc. It's all a bunch of nonsense.

Tks HF! I'll have to do some research on her. What little I know already makes me slightly ill. She reminds me of the commercials on TV from the US, (it's illegal here= cheaper RX drugs) that start off by saying if you have liver disease please advise your Dr. Please advise your Dr????? Doesn''t s/he advise you?? Or if you had your lousy life saved in the ICU but were given drug X to treat cardiopyopathy and went on to develop high blood pressure, please call lawyer Q and associates. We may be able to secure you financial compensation. Thanks for saving my life and forget the fact that if I wasn't obese, a chain smoker who drinks 8 beers a day for the last 40 years, I wouldn't have landed up in the ICU to start. Nope, it's the Dr's fault and the drug companies fault and for 50% of everything I win for you, I'll be altruistic and take your case. She mentioned some case involving fibromyalgia and trauma. I can't wait to see what that's about. Fibromyalgia isn't even considered a disease because there are no observable or measurable physiological changes, just verbal reports from the sufferer. Trauma is the exact opposite. How these 2 link into a single case will be fascinating indeed. :maddening:

Why did she submit a hand written sheet weeks after the deadline and why was it accepted?? I hope that if her written statement is to replace actual reports, her defense experts are bound to tow the party line she's outlined for them as flawed as it is.
She's got the arrogance down pat IMO. Giving the chance for the SAO to withdraw the plant growth evidence so she isn't forced to contest it. Ewwwwww scary stuff that is. Like roots penetrate bone overnight and like an expert in the field wouldn't be able to see things in a photograph that we are blind to.

 

[Capri]

My thoughts exactly. A JD doesn't make you an expert on anything, and neither does reading a bunch of journal articles. She has told people her tactics - she seeks to discredit people by very devious means - taking things out of context, trying to use their past research against them, etc. It's all a bunch of nonsense.

Care to share a link or 2 to her tactics? Admittedly I have stopped reading up on new witnesses/attorneys, etc for the defense. It's like a revolving door and there are just too many of them.

 

[sariebell]

Off topic, but I am so excited that ORNL is getting props in this case (and I hope the work holds up in Fla. court!) My dad worked there for something like 37 years as a Chemical Engineer and my brother is a chemist there at the Spelation Neutron Source. Go Oak Ridge!

 

[Capri]

OSHA's wording on chloroform:

"In humans, chloroform was used as an anesthetic. Death from its use as an anesthetic has resulted from liver damage and from cardiac arrest (Ref. 5.4). Also, an effect from acute exposure is depression of the central nervous system"

 

[snowshuze]

Tks HF! I'll have to do some research on her. What little I know already makes me slightly ill. She reminds me of the commercials on TV from the US, (it's illegal here= cheaper RX drugs) that start off by saying if you have liver disease please advise your Dr. Please advise your Dr????? Doesn''t s/he advise you?? Or if you had your lousy life saved in the ICU but were given drug X to treat cardiopyopathy and went on to develop high blood pressure, please call lawyer Q and associates. We may be able to secure you financial compensation. Thanks for saving my life and forget the fact that if I wasn't obese, a chain smoker who drinks 8 beers a day for the last 40 years, I wouldn't have landed up in the ICU to start. Nope, it's the Dr's fault and the drug companies fault and for 50% of everything I win for you, I'll be altruistic and take your case. She mentioned some case involving fibromyalgia and trauma. I can't wait to see what that's about. Fibromyalgia isn't even considered a disease because there are no observable or measurable physiological changes, just verbal reports from the sufferer. Trauma is the exact opposite. How these 2 link into a single case will be fascinating indeed. :maddening:

Why did she submit a hand written sheet weeks after the deadline and why was it accepted?? I hope that if her written statement is to replace actual reports, her defense experts are bound to tow the party line she's outlined for them as flawed as it is.
She's got the arrogance down pat IMO. Giving the chance for the SAO to withdraw the plant growth evidence so she isn't forced to contest it. Ewwwwww scary stuff that is. Like roots penetrate bone overnight and like an expert in the field wouldn't be able to see things in a photograph that we are blind to.

It's the KUDZU defense. Everyone knows kudzu grows a foot a minute.
Oh wait....Dr Bock forgot to bring her kudzu reference data from her home gardening files.

:banghead:

 

[Aedrys]

Okay, is it me, or is not a SINGLE ONE of their experts actually experts in any field? Just people who do stuff like plant growth or chloroform as a hobby? Or people like Dorothy who can somehow argue it without being a real expert? Shoot, they ought to add Cindy as decomposition specialist since she would fit right in with their other experts!

Wow. It's got to be bad when you can only find people with this stuff as hobbies or can somehow argue it without being an expert for your defense, and no actual experts to help you out. You'd think that would tell the defense something, but as usual, they are missing the big red flags!

 

[Numbers]

Okay, is it me, or is not a SINGLE ONE of their experts actually experts in any field? Just people who do stuff like plant growth or chloroform as a hobby? Or people like Dorothy who can somehow argue it without being a real expert? Shoot, they ought to add Cindy as decomposition specialist since she would fit right in with their other experts!

Wow. It's got to be bad when you can only find people with this stuff as hobbies or can somehow argue it without being an expert for your defense, and no actual experts to help you out. You'd think that would tell the defense something, but as usual, they are missing the big red flags!

And wasn't Sims own area of expertise medical cases? No wonder she dredges up fibromyalgia and trauma. She'll need to study up on pure chemistry.

Yoo hoo, Dorothy! You're not in Kansas anymore!

 

[MADJGNLAW]

Cloroform- sent to judge 3/7/11 9:47 AM from Dorothy Sims, atty:
http://www.wesh.com/pdf/27106293/detail.html?utm_source=manual&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign

Plant growth- sent to judge 3/7/11 2:24 AM from DS, atty:
http://www.wesh.com/pdf/27106306/detail.html
I tried to put these on the 2nd hearing day, when they were brought up, but that thread is closed. These are the written documents that follow up the handwritten note Sims hurredly wrote in open court and Baez signed. They are regarding the chloroform & plant growth issues.

Mods feel free to move if needed.

All I have to say is this....:banghead:
Botanists Hall, was brought in to examine the outdoor site where the body of Caylee was found
The use of expert testimony by botanists dates back at least to 1935. So this is in no way junk science or what ever Dorothy Sims is implying.

Read more here: http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/expanding_field_of_forensic_botany_helps_point_detectives/

 

[snowshuze]

For your reading pleasure: (pg 9)

12: Dr Hall admits, when questioned about his conclusions "I have no empirical data" (deposition Dr Hall 59/11) emphasis supplied.
Definition of "empirical" according to the Merriam-Webster dictionary includes "originating or based on observation or experience" emphasis supplied.
This sharply contrasts his testimony when Dr Hall admits he has no empirical data yet claims to be able to reach this conclusion using this new method based upon his experience observing plants..."Since I've probably been about ten..." (Dr Halls deposition 59/6-7). While Dr Hall is a botanist, watching plants grow as a child does not rise to the level of scientific scrutiny required by Frey.
http://www.wesh.com/pdf/27106306/detail.html

Well alrighty then. Pot, meet kettle.


Defense is using an "expert" that is not educated/published/peer reviewed in the science that she is getting up on the stand to REFUTE.

MOO and stuff.

ETA: VERY interesting reading above cited pdf , and then reading Dr Bocks deposition.

http://www.wftv.com/pdf/27085544/detail.html



Dr Bock had not, to date, viewed all evidence (apparently not supplied by defense). I'm wondering if Hizhonor would toss the motion on that information alone? IMO, you can't make an informed opinion on less than fullly disclosed information.

 

[ZsaZsa]

I haven't kept up with this thread so I hope I'm not repeating something already discussed but there is an excellent post on Hinky Meter today, regarding Dr Boch and her deposition/testimony.
http://www.thehinkymeter.com/2011/03/09/caylee-anthony-case-battle-botanist/#more-6363

 

[Itsy]

Thanks, ZsaZsa, I just read that & was going to post the link here.

Very interesting article by JWG!

 

[RR0004]

I haven't kept up with this thread so I hope I'm not repeating something already discussed but there is an excellent post on Hinky Meter today, regarding Dr Boch and her deposition/testimony.
http://www.thehinkymeter.com/2011/03/09/caylee-anthony-case-battle-botanist/#more-6363

Speaking of LKB bringing this woman on board, I caught her (Linda, that is) on a morning talk show giving her 2 cents about Charlie Sheen. Oh, my.

 

[LiveLaughLuv]

JWG....did I ever tell you...YOU ROCK..:great:


I loved your write up and the last sentence...at the end of the day, the DT should show DBock some dignity and not put her on the stand...ITA...she can't really be considered an expert can she??? She isn't ready to "render" a decision so how does that help ICA...fishing I tell ya'..the DT has no where to go, they can't run or hide but they've got nothing as far as I'm concerned and all this is just going through the motions when they must truly know the outcome will be a bad one for their client. I do hope ICA is comfortable where she's at, for I believe she's there for the long haul...JMHO


Justice for Caylee

 

[Capri]

I haven't kept up with this thread so I hope I'm not repeating something already discussed but there is an excellent post on Hinky Meter today, regarding Dr Boch and her deposition/testimony.
http://www.thehinkymeter.com/2011/03/09/caylee-anthony-case-battle-botanist/#more-6363

If ,as she states, she has never examined a skull with roots growing through it before, how is she of any real help to the defense? She seemed to answer with many "maybe" type answers, and while I agree she seems grandmother-ish likeable, that alone isn't enough.

 

[LiveLaughLuv]

And this is the expert that wants the states expert eliminated as an expert...some gall, eh....

She reminds me of the "expert" ALyon brought in to get the DP removed totally from ICA's case...that "expert" fell flat too....so, if the DT's future is based on past, I'd say....this one falls flat too...JMHO

:maddening:

:banghead:

Justice for Caylee

 

[nums24]

Dr. Barry Logan Deposition http://www.wftv.com/pdf/27266818/detail.html

 

[RR0004]

OMG...I wish there was a Cliffs Notes version of this deposition...I'm on page 56 and ready for a nap. Not that it's boring or dry...just need to rest my eyes.

 

[Tulessa]

It's well written but I'm not sure it actually says much. I take my cue from Joypath who is giggling over it. If it makes her laugh, it makes me go:woohoo:Not to be oppositional but if the defense had a solid argument here, they would have submitted by deadline and not weeks after the fact IMO.

We are going to have to put Joy in da corner. When she wooho's and you woohooo, I lose track of what I am trying to read, and end up doing this. :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh: