2011.06.11 Sidebar (Trial Day Sixteen)

[Mountain_Kat]

For the most part, I've tried to stay away from forming any theories regarding what I think happened. But the past 2 days, I've found myself wandering more and more into that territory. Last night, I landed on a string of thoughts that made perfect sense to me.

Why would you chloroform a child, duct tape her mouth, and possibly her hands as well? If you are going to kill a 2 year old by smothering them with duct tape, why would you need to make chloroform (not an easy process) and use that to subdue them. Cough syrup would work just fine. That's a question I've come back to every single time I've tried to figure out what might have happened here. The chloroform searches were done in March. Caylee died in June. You don't click on a recipe for chloroform 84 times to learn how to make it in March, and then actually make it (not refreshing your memory on how to make it) 3 months later. I believe ICA actually made the chloroform in March or early April. So, if Caylee didn't die until June, what was ICA doing with this chloroform?

We know that there was a loose hair with a death band found in the trunk of the car. Caylee's body was triple bagged. How did that hair end up loose in the trunk of the car? How did decomp fluid leak through 2 trash bags and a laundry bag with waterproof liner, onto the liner of the trunk itself? I don't think it did.

I think ICA was using chloroform as a "babysitter". She wanted to meet up with TL the night Caylee went missing. There were numerous rapid calls to GA and CA late that afternoon. ICA couldn't find a babysitter, imo. She chloroformed Caylee, duct taped her mouth to keep her silent if she woke up, possibly bound her hands with duct tape so she couldn't remove the mouth duct tape if she woke up, and put her in the trunk of her car. Later, she goes to check on Caylee, and Caylee is dead. This fits with both Dr. Vass' and Dr. Hackett's testimony regarding the body being in that trunk very close to time of death. It also fits with why we might find a loose death band hair in the trunk (she's not bagged), and decomp fluid on the liner.

So, if Caylee died in the trunk of the car, why do cadaver dogs hit on the backyard? I didn't have a clue. Until I recalled Forgey's testimony on cross. He states that a person could cut their finger, bleed on the ground, the blood begin to decomp outside the body...dogs would hit on that. Aha! After ICA borrows the shovel to bag Caylee (in the trunk of the car), she goes into the backyard to wash the shovel. Where does she do this? Where cadaver dogs hit.

That's the most reasonable theory I can come up with at this point, but I think it makes sense.

ETA: More to the point, I think this is exactly the scenario the state is trying to show with all this evidence. Big lightbulb moment for me.

 

[NoeticSoul]

For the most part, I've tried to stay away from forming any theories regarding what I think happened. But the past 2 days, I've found myself wandering more and more into that territory. Last night, I landed on a string of thoughts that made perfect sense to me.

Why would you chloroform a child, duct tape her mouth, and possibly her hands as well? If you are going to kill a 2 year old by smothering them with duct tape, why would you need to make chloroform (not an easy process) and use that to subdue them. Cough syrup would work just fine. That's a question I've come back to every single time I've tried to figure out what might have happened here. The chloroform searches were done in March. Caylee died in June. You don't click on a recipe for chloroform 84 times to learn how to make it in March, and then actually make it (not refreshing your memory on how to make it) 3 months later. I believe ICA actually made the chloroform in March or early April. So, if Caylee didn't die until June, what was ICA doing with this chloroform?

We know that there was a loose hair with a death band found in the trunk of the car. Caylee's body was triple bagged. How did that hair end up loose in the trunk of the car? How did decomp fluid leak through 2 trash bags and a laundry bag with waterproof liner, onto the liner of the trunk itself? I don't think it did.

I think ICA was using chloroform as a "babysitter". She wanted to meet up with TL the night Caylee went missing. There were numerous rapid calls to GA and CA late that afternoon. ICA couldn't find a babysitter, imo. She chloroformed Caylee, duct taped her mouth to keep her silent if she woke up, possibly bound her hands with duct tape so she couldn't remove the mouth duct tape if she woke up, and put her in the trunk of her car. Later, she goes to check on Caylee, and Caylee is dead. This fits with both Dr. Vass' and Dr. Hackett's testimony regarding the body being in that trunk very close to time of death. It also fits with why we might find a loose death band hair in the trunk (she's not bagged), and decomp fluid on the liner.

So, if Caylee died in the trunk of the car, why do cadaver dogs hit on the backyard? I didn't have a clue. Until I recalled Forgey's testimony on cross. He states that a person could cut their finger, bleed on the ground, the blood begin to decomp outside the body...dogs would hit on that. Aha! After ICA borrows the shovel to bag Caylee (in the trunk of the car), she goes into the backyard to wash the shovel. Where does she do this? Where cadaver dogs hit.

That's the most reasonable theory I can come up with at this point, but I think it makes sense.

ETA: More to the point, I think this is exactly the scenario the state is trying to show with all this evidence. Big lightbulb moment for me.

Hi Kat! =)

Makes perfect sense to me too. The car *was* the nanny. This child never drown, accidentally or otherwise imo. What I don't understand, is the Internet searches for neck-breaking and such--as that goes far beyond just wanting a baby to sleep quietly in a car trunk. And, telling her friends that the house would shortly be hers. I'm still stuck on *that*.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Hi Kat! =)

Makes perfect sense to me too. The car *was* the nanny. This child never drown, accidentally or otherwise imo. What I don't understand, is the Internet searches for neck-breaking and such--as that goes far beyond just wanting a baby to sleep quietly in a car trunk. And, telling her friends that the house would shortly be hers. I'm still stuck on *that*.

I can't figure out the neck breaking search, but if you look again at Zanny's car accident, you'll see many of the searches done fit the research for that story. Head trauma, ruptured spleen, menigile artery, etc. I think ICA used the internet ALOT to build up her lies and give them weight.

As for the car being the nanny...I think that makes the most sense to me. Where exactly was Caylee when ICA said she was with the nanny that never existed? I think sometimes with any friend that could take her, but when no one COULD take her..."nanny".

JMO

 

[Mountain_Kat]

I'm really starting to wonder if the nanny's name was taken from zany bars. Perhaps ICA intitially used xanax to subdue Caylee, but then, was no longer able to get them. No xanax? Move to chloroform.

Just a guess.

 

[reeseeva]

Did anyone post a picture of Cindy mouthing the words "I love you" to ICA, yesterday? I know someone posted about this, and find it hard to believe. Not to say she doesn't support her daughter, but I can't see Cindy doing this in court??

Thanks

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Did anyone post a picture of Cindy mouthing the words "I love you" to ICA, yesterday? I know someone posted about this, and find it hard to believe. Not to say she doesn't support her daughter, but I can't see Cindy doing this in court??

Thanks

I only got to see Dr. Hackett's testimony yesterday, so I didn't see this. If it happened, it wouldn't shock me. If people are reading more into something than is actually there, that wouldn't surprise me either.

I will say, though, that if I saw CA mouth those words, I wouldn't fault her for that. I haven't a doubt in the world that she loves her daughter. "I love you" doesn't translate into "I know you are innocent."

 

[MissJames]

IIRC Cindy said there was a hamper they used and kept in Caylee's room,to hold the plastic balls from a ball pit. I believe she said it in her depo with the state. I'll go look for a link.

Here are links to Cindy Anthony's deposition with the State .The reference to the laundry hamper used as for the balls starts on pg.521 of PART 2

Since there is no court today,I would encourage any newbie's or those who need a refresher to read,not only Cindy's depo ,but as many depo's and documents that you can. Look in the stickies .
They are chock full of details and answer many of your questions. :seeya:


Thread: 2009.07.28 / 2009.07.29 Deposition Cindy Anthony Transcript parts 1 and 2
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Old 10-15-2009, 07:55 PM
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2009.07.28 / 2009.07.29 Deposition Cindy Anthony Transcript parts 1 and 2
TRANSCRIPT: Cindy Part 1
http://www.wftv.com/pdf/21310276/detail.html

TRANSCRIPT: Cindy Part 2
http://www.wftv.com/pdf/21310288/detail.html
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Last edited by JBean; 10-16-2009 at 09:46 AM.

 

[Tuffy]

The SA asked Dr. G today if anything was found with the body that could have caused Caylee's death.
Dr. G said 'no' except for the duct tape and a plastic bag could possibly cause death. Both could cause suffocation.

No mention of any chemical or weird substance at the remains site.

Nothing that Dr. G could testify to, I'm sure. She didn't test anything found at the crime scene, right?

 

[biggirl]

Was not able to catch al the testimony yesterday, but what I was able to see was fascinating. Dr Haskell is so brilliant and then to have JB bring out his "flip chart" just made me think what an "unusual attorney". Eyes have to start rolling in that courtroom whenever he brings it out. Not to mention his smirky grin that he is onto something big. Just had to vent, sorry.

 

[Tuffy]

I'm really starting to wonder if the nanny's name was taken from zany bars. Perhaps ICA intitially used xanax to subdue Caylee, but then, was no longer able to get them. No xanax? Move to chloroform.

Just a guess.

Caylee's hair was tested for drug use. It came back negative. So, if Caylee was given any drugs, it was when she died. Any earlier drug use would have shown up in the hair samples.

 

[MissJames]

Did anyone post a picture of Cindy mouthing the words "I love you" to ICA, yesterday? I know someone posted about this, and find it hard to believe. Not to say she doesn't support her daughter, but I can't see Cindy doing this in court??

Thanks

I just posted links to CA's depo with the State. In it,she is asked about taking ICA for counseling. Cindy was considering it ,but it never happened.She didn't like the counselor.Why? Because the woman told her to ABANDON her daughter and kick her out of the house, "and that was never going to happen".

This statement,after telling the SA how much ICA stole from and lied to her.

ETA: what others consider no longer enabling bad behavior ,Cindy considers it abandoning.

 

[Tuffy]

I can't figure out the neck breaking search, but if you look again at Zanny's car accident, you'll see many of the searches done fit the research for that story. Head trauma, ruptured spleen, menigile artery, etc. I think ICA used the internet ALOT to build up her lies and give them weight.

As for the car being the nanny...I think that makes the most sense to me. Where exactly was Caylee when ICA said she was with the nanny that never existed? I think sometimes with any friend that could take her, but when no one COULD take her..."nanny".

JMO

The nanny story was used after Caylee was dead, that we can verify through testimony. I don't believe that Caylee was actually not with either Cindy, George, Casey, or another actual person, before then.

Casey didn't actually work, and she had plenty of people to watch Caylee, that I don't think she needed a "nanny." Caseys friends testified that Casey brought Caylee along a lot.

 

[Phoebeb]

Kat- Why would she need the shovel to bag the body? I just can't get that part. I think she would only do that as a last resort to not have the neighbor recall that she borrowed it. She must have REALLY needed that shovel to take the risk of him saying she borrowed it.
Maybe she used the duct tape the night of the 16th leading to Caylee's death, then the next day - or the 18th- came back to the house with the body still open (not bagged) in the trunk. Something was up since she backed the car in, and neighbor said that wasn't the norm. If fluids were already leaking, maybe she knew she couldn't prepare the body in the garage because of the mess, so she got the blanket from the house, and transported the body through the side gate, concealed with the blanket and/or laundry bag, to that corner out back.
If you look at the yard photos, you see a very large unopened umbrella next to the playhouse- not the small striped one that goes with the picnic table that is shown opened. But there is a tall one (closed up in the photos) right in the area of the dog hits. I think she opened that to give herself privacy from all the surrounding neighbors' windows. You can see houses behind the Anthony yard, next door, etc. Maybe that was the spot in the yard she could get protection/ privacy to prepare the body. She never thought the grassy area would retain fluids, odors like the garage floor would have.
But where does that borrowed shovel come in? I can't see why she would risk having to borrow it creating a red flag. And IIRC, she used it for about an hour.

 

[2door73chevy]

Just cannot fathom KC would drive around with her daughter's body in the trunk a few days....what was she thinking....wasn't she scared someone would need or want to get in the trunk for something. I would think she would have been paranoid but nobody ever testified she seemed paranoid about anything.

See, that's what gets me too...If I try and *think* like ICA...I would NEVER ride around with a body in my car. What would she have done if stopped by a cop or flat tire? Would she just run?

 

[Tuffy]

I don't know if JB objected based on Casey's face being in the photo. If he had, I would think HHJP would have said, go crop the photo and bring this witness back tomorrow.

Yeah, I don't think Casey being in the picture is what Jose objected to. I think he just objected to it, because it actually illustrates what his client did to Caylee. I personally don't think the photo is going to be that shocking to the jury. They have actually seen the real skull pictures, and all the crime scene photos.

 

[Tuffy]

Well, that's more or less why I am offering my perspective here, Woe. I know only what the jury knows. My hope is that my thoughts might give others here, who know every detail about this case, some insight into how things might appear to this jury.

Thanks for being our "mock juror" Mountain_Kat! It's hard to find someone who is that interested in this case willing to listen to the trial from that perspective. Most of us here were following the case from the beginning and have absorbed every bit of documentation, and info regarding it. We've been analyzing stuff way too long to try to even pretend we don't know way more than the actual jury at this point!

 

[MissJames]

For the most part, I've tried to stay away from forming any theories regarding what I think happened. But the past 2 days, I've found myself wandering more and more into that territory. Last night, I landed on a string of thoughts that made perfect sense to me.

Why would you chloroform a child, duct tape her mouth, and possibly her hands as well? If you are going to kill a 2 year old by smothering them with duct tape, why would you need to make chloroform (not an easy process) and use that to subdue them. Cough syrup would work just fine. That's a question I've come back to every single time I've tried to figure out what might have happened here. The chloroform searches were done in March. Caylee died in June. You don't click on a recipe for chloroform 84 times to learn how to make it in March, and then actually make it (not refreshing your memory on how to make it) 3 months later. I believe ICA actually made the chloroform in March or early April. So, if Caylee didn't die until June, what was ICA doing with this chloroform?

We know that there was a loose hair with a death band found in the trunk of the car. Caylee's body was triple bagged. How did that hair end up loose in the trunk of the car? How did decomp fluid leak through 2 trash bags and a laundry bag with waterproof liner, onto the liner of the trunk itself? I don't think it did.

I think ICA was using chloroform as a "babysitter". She wanted to meet up with TL the night Caylee went missing. There were numerous rapid calls to GA and CA late that afternoon. ICA couldn't find a babysitter, imo. She chloroformed Caylee, duct taped her mouth to keep her silent if she woke up, possibly bound her hands with duct tape so she couldn't remove the mouth duct tape if she woke up, and put her in the trunk of her car. Later, she goes to check on Caylee, and Caylee is dead. This fits with both Dr. Vass' and Dr. Hackett's testimony regarding the body being in that trunk very close to time of death. It also fits with why we might find a loose death band hair in the trunk (she's not bagged), and decomp fluid on the liner.

So, if Caylee died in the trunk of the car, why do cadaver dogs hit on the backyard? I didn't have a clue. Until I recalled Forgey's testimony on cross. He states that a person could cut their finger, bleed on the ground, the blood begin to decomp outside the body...dogs would hit on that. Aha! After ICA borrows the shovel to bag Caylee (in the trunk of the car), she goes into the backyard to wash the shovel. Where does she do this? Where cadaver dogs hit.

That's the most reasonable theory I can come up with at this point, but I think it makes sense.

ETA: More to the point, I think this is exactly the scenario the state is trying to show with all this evidence. Big lightbulb moment for me.

On the 18th ,the neighbor saw ICA's car backed into the garage. She borrowed the shovel. I think that's when Caylee was bagged up (hard to type ,poor baby) and somehow that's when decomp got in the back yard. Maybe she moved Caylee back there in an attempt to bury her,or maybe it was transfer from something she touched or moved.
Dogs have the most amazing sense of smell. Tracking dogs can follow scent from shed skin cells invisible to the naked eye.It would not take much decomp for a hit,IMO.
Also, this timeline matches the 2.6 day of the state of decomp found in the car. At each phase of decomp you have different elements present .It was determined that the decomp in the trunk was at 2.6 days.

 

[Tuffy]

I believe the entomologist said it was decomposition material on the paper towels in the "trash" bag in the trunk.

Thanks for bringing this up, Phoebeb! I thought he said that too, until he said there were no bugs in the trash bag, just the trunk. So again, I'm back to thinking the paper towels were separate from the trash in the trash bag.

Wait, what was Jose's statement about the roach motel referring to again? He said bugs check in, but they don't check out? So did he mean the bugs were only in the trash bag?

 

[Phoebeb]

Do we know when the first time the name "Zanny" was used by ICA? Was the name only heard AFTER June 16th? I know ICA referred to the nanny a lot before then, but when did the "Zanny the nanny" come up? Anyone remember?
Maybe it was always in ICA's mind that when she used Xanax as the "babysitter" she thought of it as "Xanny the nanny"...Zenaida starting with ZE, not ZA. It doesn't really rhyme or make sense to get "Zanny" out of "Zenaida". Zen-zen could work for a nickname or Zenny, but getting Zanny out of Zenaida... not as logical unless it started as "Xanny" the nanny. I hope I explained what I am trying to say...

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Caylee's hair was tested for drug use. It came back negative. So, if Caylee was given any drugs, it was when she died. Any earlier drug use would have shown up in the hair samples.

My understanding is that most chemicals only show up in hair follicle tests within a 90 day period. So, if Caylee had been dosed with xanax in say March, it might well not show up in follicle tests done in July.

JMO, and it could certainly be wrong.