2011.06.11 Sidebar (Trial Day Sixteen)

[HRCODEPINK]

For the most part, I've tried to stay away from forming any theories regarding what I think happened. But the past 2 days, I've found myself wandering more and more into that territory. Last night, I landed on a string of thoughts that made perfect sense to me.

....

So, if Caylee died in the trunk of the car, why do cadaver dogs hit on the backyard? I didn't have a clue. Until I recalled Forgey's testimony on cross. He states that a person could cut their finger, bleed on the ground, the blood begin to decomp outside the body...dogs would hit on that. Aha! After ICA borrows the shovel to bag Caylee (in the trunk of the car), she goes into the backyard to wash the shovel. Where does she do this? Where cadaver dogs hit.

...

Snipped for space!

I like it! But, weren't there tests on the shovel? That actually means nothing if the shovel wasn't really banged up there wouldn't be a lot of cracks (which could be so tiny you might not see them without really looking) that and she didn't get anything on the wooden handle or anywhere that couldn't really be cleaned. She could have also used something that would have destroyed any decomp evidence, I suppose. Maybe chloroform (kidding, sort of). She would have to be really careful for it to work and the tests come back negative. Honestly, from Forgey's testimony, there could be any number of reasons that they hit in the backyard. Many possibilities not even being Caylee at all. It's annoying to know that we will never know the full truth and even if she did finally tell it, I don't think I would believe her.

 

[MissJames]

Kat- Why would she need the shovel to bag the body? I just can't get that part. I think she would only do that as a last resort to not have the neighbor recall that she borrowed it. She must have REALLY needed that shovel to take the risk of him saying she borrowed it.
Maybe she used the duct tape the night of the 16th leading to Caylee's death, then the next day - or the 18th- came back to the house with the body still open (not bagged) in the trunk. Something was up since she backed the car in, and neighbor said that wasn't the norm. If fluids were already leaking, maybe she knew she couldn't prepare the body in the garage because of the mess, so she got the blanket from the house, and transported the body through the side gate, concealed with the blanket and/or laundry bag, to that corner out back.
If you look at the yard photos, you see a very large unopened umbrella next to the playhouse- not the small striped one that goes with the picnic table that is shown opened. But there is a tall one (closed up in the photos) right in the area of the dog hits. I think she opened that to give herself privacy from all the surrounding neighbors' windows. You can see houses behind the Anthony yard, next door, etc. Maybe that was the spot in the yard she could get protection/ privacy to prepare the body. She never thought the grassy area would retain fluids, odors like the garage floor would have.
But where does that borrowed shovel come in? I can't see why she would risk having to borrow it creating a red flag. And IIRC, she used it for about an hour.

IMO Casey never thought anything through.Everything she did created red flags!
Imagine a decomposed body in the trunk of your car. How will you even get it into a bag? Touch it? No way.
I think that's why she borrowed the shovel. I also think it didn't work and she found another way,which is why there was no evidence on the shovel.

 

[Lera213]

Here's the screen captures of the two incidents of ICA flipping someone off as she cries. Edited to add that it was Dr. Fessel who found this in a video of Casey crying during the testimony on Friday.

No if's and or buts about the finger here. It is not normal to hold your hand/fingers in that position to wipe your face in any fashion.

I doubt the Jury saw it, I didn't see it when I was watching. What was actually being said at this time? It also shows me that ICA is having a very hard time holding it in. She just wants to let everything out (anger).

One more time Cindy on the stand might be what will make her blowup.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

The nanny story was used after Caylee was dead, that we can verify through testimony. I don't believe that Caylee was actually not with either Cindy, George, Casey, or another actual person, before then.

Casey didn't actually work, and she had plenty of people to watch Caylee, that I don't think she needed a "nanny." Caseys friends testified that Casey brought Caylee along a lot.

What I learned through testimony was that the "nanny" story was used while Caylee was still alive. A year and a 1/2 prior to her death, if I'm not mistaken.

Am I mistaken in thinking I heard that? :waitasec:

 

[HRCODEPINK]

IMO Casey never thought anything through.Everything she did created red flags!
Imagine a decomposed body in the trunk of your car. How will you even get it into a bag? Touch it? No way.
I think that's why she borrowed the shovel. I also think it didn't work and she found another way,which is why there was no evidence on the shovel.

BBM

I have always believed that she never used that shovel. I can't see someone who wouldn't put a little effort into hiding the body of their murdered, duct taped daughter using a shovel for anything.

 

[zoey]

What I learned through testimony was that the "nanny" story was used while Caylee was still alive. A year and a 1/2 prior to her death, if I'm not mistaken.

Am I mistaken in thinking I heard that? :waitasec:

you are an astute mock jurior....you did hear that.....

 

[tragco]

I call them "Armageddons" for just that reason :banghead:

O/T Ha! I would love to look out and see an armadillo rooting around here. They look so neat on the Discovery channel. Here in East TN all we have are groundhogs and wild boars. They wreak havoc but they are very cute.

ON topic, I am wondering what the DT will present as their case in chief. I don't know what they really have, beyond a few people who will diss GA and that one guy who testified against Dr. Vass during the Frye hearings.

It heartens me that during Jury selection the DT kept asking the potential jurors if they understood that the number of witnesses called should not influence them.

 

[Phoebeb]

IMO Casey never thought anything through.Everything she did created red flags!
Imagine a decomposed body in the trunk of your car. How will you even get it into a bag? Touch it? No way.
I think that's why she borrowed the shovel. I also think it didn't work and she found another way,which is why there was no evidence on the shovel.

Do you think she used the shovel to weigh the bag down with sand from the sandbox? Since no evidence on the shovel, maybe she used it for something we're not thinking of. Maybe sand, dirt, mulch from back yard to add to bag to keep it in place once dumped? IDK... there has to be something she used that shovel for- can't see her lifting it up to trunk level to aid in removing the body.

Maybe it's as simple as she was planning to dig a shallow grave in the woods, then realized that would be too difficult so she returned the shovel, never having used it. Came up with a plan B right there in the back yard after she thought the trash bags and laundry bag would suffice.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Snipped for space!

I like it! But, weren't there tests on the shovel? That actually means nothing if the shovel wasn't really banged up there wouldn't be a lot of cracks (which could be so tiny you might not see them without really looking) that and she didn't get anything on the wooden handle or anywhere that couldn't really be cleaned. She could have also used something that would have destroyed any decomp evidence, I suppose. Maybe chloroform (kidding, sort of). She would have to be really careful for it to work and the tests come back negative. Honestly, from Forgey's testimony, there could be any number of reasons that they hit in the backyard. Many possibilities not even being Caylee at all. It's annoying to know that we will never know the full truth and even if she did finally tell it, I don't think I would believe her.

I have no idea. I don't recall any mention of that during the trial, though. And I've been listening from start to finish every day, except a few hours yesterday. You would think LE tested the shovel, but perhaps that showed nothing, so was no reason to mention it in court. I would think it easy to clean a shovel, though. The metal scoop part wouldn't absorb decomp, so simple bleach would probably do the trick.

JMO

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Here are links to Cindy Anthony's deposition with the State .The reference to the laundry hamper used as for the balls starts on pg.521 of PART 2

Since there is no court today,I would encourage any newbie's or those who need a refresher to read,not only Cindy's depo ,but as many depo's and documents that you can. Look in the stickies .
They are chock full of details and answer many of your questions. :seeya:


Thread: 2009.07.28 / 2009.07.29 Deposition Cindy Anthony Transcript parts 1 and 2
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Old 10-15-2009, 07:55 PM
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2009.07.28 / 2009.07.29 Deposition Cindy Anthony Transcript parts 1 and 2
TRANSCRIPT: Cindy Part 1
http://www.wftv.com/pdf/21310276/detail.html

TRANSCRIPT: Cindy Part 2
http://www.wftv.com/pdf/21310288/detail.html
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MISSING! Gail Nowacki Palmgren- click here to join our discussion






Last edited by JBean; 10-16-2009 at 09:46 AM.

I hate you, Miss J. You have NO idea how tempted I am to read that! :banghead:

 

[logicalgirl]

Did anyone post a picture of Cindy mouthing the words "I love you" to ICA, yesterday? I know someone posted about this, and find it hard to believe. Not to say she doesn't support her daughter, but I can't see Cindy doing this in court??

Thanks

There is a video in the what is CA doing in court thread.

Interesting though, because I actually saw that clip in real time and was surprised to see it was the same one that other posters were talking about as "the one".

Cindy spends most of her time with her head bent down, writing in her journal. She wears glasses most of the time. As you will see in this clip, she lifts her head, moves her hand to adjust her glasses, and chews on her finger nail as she says something to George. I also notice CA is no longer chewing gum in the courtroom.

So the poster who mentioned this saw something none of the tweets in the courtroom saw. I think an action like that would have caused a wildfire of tweets. And in looking at the seating in the courtroom, and taking an angle from where the defence table is to where the Anthony's are sitting, (and the courtroom floor is flat) it would be at about the 120 degree mark. I would be surprised if CA can even see ICA. We notice also that ICA rarely looks into the courtroom.

Along with that, let's consider that within the last 24 hours, we had had Dr. G. on the stand, the autopsy pictures, the video with the duct tape over Caylee's little nose and mouth, and experts testifying about scavengers knawing on Caylee's little bones and scattering them over half an acre. We also heard about trunk decomp and bug evidence.

I suppose there may be a time when CA might mouth those words to ICA. Do I think she did this yesterday. No I don't - not a chance. All IMO of course.

 

[stilettos]

I just posted links to CA's depo with the State. In it,she is asked about taking ICA for counseling. Cindy was considering it ,but it never happened.She didn't like the counselor.Why? Because the woman told her to ABANDON her daughter and kick her out of the house, "and that was never going to happen".

This statement,after telling the SA how much ICA stole from and lied to her.

ETA: what others consider no longer enabling bad behavior ,Cindy considers it abandoning.

It all goes back to consistent and immovable boundaries....this ICA was never taught boundaries in her behavior...she and CA are somewhat enmeshed and that is not healthy. IMO. Cindy never wanted to do the hard work of discipline and healthy boundaries. Sad for all involved...don't know if this played in to ICA's sociopathy or made it worse.

 

[Phoebeb]

So is the laundry hamper the same as the laundry bag or something totally different? When I think hamper, I think of a structured basket or heavy wicker type hamper in a closet.

 

[Tuffy]

My understanding is that most chemicals only show up in hair follicle tests within a 90 day period. So, if Caylee had been dosed with xanax in say March, it might well not show up in follicle tests done in July.

JMO, and it could certainly be wrong.

I suppose if the drug use stopped before the 90 day period, then yes, Caylee could have been drugged in March. Caylee had long hair though, and they could get a pretty lengthy history as well.

I don't remember if they said whether they tested any further back than the 90 day window though. I looked up some info about the drug tests for hair:

What time period does a standard hair follicle test cover?

A standard hair follicle screen covers a period of approximately 90 days, but is susceptible to time variation depending on the growth rate of your hair. The hair sample is cut as close to the scalp as possible and the most recent 3.9cm (or 1.5 inches) are tested. It is possible to go back even further than 90 days since the time period is limited only by the length of the hair sample, but is standardized to a 90 day history.

How fast does head hair grow?

Hair collected at the crown of the head grows on the average of approximately 1.3 cm (or 1/2 inch) per month. This growth rate varies among people by approximately + .2 cm per month which can create a possible time variation of up to +1 week per month.

http://www.ipassedmydrugtest.com/hair_drug_test_FAQ.asp

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Thanks for bringing this up, Phoebeb! I thought he said that too, until he said there were no bugs in the trash bag, just the trunk. So again, I'm back to thinking the paper towels were separate from the trash in the trash bag.

Wait, what was Jose's statement about the roach motel referring to again? He said bugs check in, but they don't check out? So did he mean the bugs were only in the trash bag?

No, Dr. Haskell said there were bugs in the trash bag. Pupea (sp?) in the trunk. He couldn't detemine what the pupea in the trunk were without an adult of the species, and he found that adult in the trash bag. He then examined the papertowels, and found numerous bugs and pupea of the same type...coffin flies, if memory serves.

Also found some bot flies, but not many.

At least, that's what I heard.

ETA: I made particular note of the fact that the papertowels were in a bag within the trash bag. I found that interesting. Very interesting.

 

[Tipstaff]

Okay, I just discovered something and I have to share. It is ridiculous.

JB's opening statement is all from the psychic stuff he was mad about getting in the first round of discovery!

I have been searching youtube for the neighbor talking about the water and how high it was to no avail. I clicked a "psychic talking about Caylee" video just for the heck of it. So many of them come up. I watched 2 of these videos with 2 different sets of people talking. Combined you have the Opening Statement. :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh: I can't stop laughing.

I think that is the only Discovery JB read, he left the real stuff to everyone else.

Bringing this forward from yesterday. Awesome reminder as JB and DT will begin their case in approximately 8 or 9 days.

 

[momtective]

For the most part, I've tried to stay away from forming any theories regarding what I think happened. But the past 2 days, I've found myself wandering more and more into that territory. Last night, I landed on a string of thoughts that made perfect sense to me.

Why would you chloroform a child, duct tape her mouth, and possibly her hands as well? If you are going to kill a 2 year old by smothering them with duct tape, why would you need to make chloroform (not an easy process) and use that to subdue them. Cough syrup would work just fine. That's a question I've come back to every single time I've tried to figure out what might have happened here. The chloroform searches were done in March. Caylee died in June. You don't click on a recipe for chloroform 84 times to learn how to make it in March, and then actually make it (not refreshing your memory on how to make it) 3 months later. I believe ICA actually made the chloroform in March or early April. So, if Caylee didn't die until June, what was ICA doing with this chloroform?

We know that there was a loose hair with a death band found in the trunk of the car. Caylee's body was triple bagged. How did that hair end up loose in the trunk of the car? How did decomp fluid leak through 2 trash bags and a laundry bag with waterproof liner, onto the liner of the trunk itself? I don't think it did.

I think ICA was using chloroform as a "babysitter". She wanted to meet up with TL the night Caylee went missing. There were numerous rapid calls to GA and CA late that afternoon. ICA couldn't find a babysitter, imo. She chloroformed Caylee, duct taped her mouth to keep her silent if she woke up, possibly bound her hands with duct tape so she couldn't remove the mouth duct tape if she woke up, and put her in the trunk of her car. Later, she goes to check on Caylee, and Caylee is dead. This fits with both Dr. Vass' and Dr. Hackett's testimony regarding the body being in that trunk very close to time of death. It also fits with why we might find a loose death band hair in the trunk (she's not bagged), and decomp fluid on the liner.

So, if Caylee died in the trunk of the car, why do cadaver dogs hit on the backyard? I didn't have a clue. Until I recalled Forgey's testimony on cross. He states that a person could cut their finger, bleed on the ground, the blood begin to decomp outside the body...dogs would hit on that. Aha! After ICA borrows the shovel to bag Caylee (in the trunk of the car), she goes into the backyard to wash the shovel. Where does she do this? Where cadaver dogs hit.

That's the most reasonable theory I can come up with at this point, but I think it makes sense.

ETA: More to the point, I think this is exactly the scenario the state is trying to show with all this evidence. Big lightbulb moment for me.

Exactly my theory in Dec. 2009 [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4561463&postcount=341"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Poll: What was the duct tape used for?[/ame] and restated in Sept. 2010 [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5643303&postcount=127"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Defense to depose Dr. G[/ame]
Hence the trash bag in the car. I think ICA took the trash out as an excuse to get out to the parking lot and check on Caylee...when she found her dead I believe she just tossed the trash in there with her...it was probably too far to walk to the dumpster. :doh:

 

[kssgdby]

Just a theory/opinion but maybe Lee got rid of the Duct Tape after all of the Missing posters were put up. Maybe that would explain the comment by law enforcement "Lee knows what he has done" Perhaps he knew the duct tape was going to come into play and he knew it would seal Casey's fate and he got rid of it.

 

[HRCODEPINK]

I have no idea. I don't recall any mention of that during the trial, though. And I've been listening from start to finish every day, except a few hours yesterday. You would think LE tested the shovel, but perhaps that showed nothing, so was no reason to mention it in court. I would think it easy to clean a shovel, though. The metal scoop part wouldn't absorb decomp, so simple bleach would probably do the trick.

JMO

Ohhhhh. Kid stuff has prevented me from being here some of the science days and I saw a pic of it on TV the other day when rushing out and thought they had covered it. I can't imagine why it wouldn't have been mentioned, either by the state if positive or the defense on cross if negative. I wonder why it hasn't been mentioned. Thanks!

 

[Phoebeb]

Just thought of something else! Lightbulb!
If ICA used duct tape with chloroform(?) the night of the 16th (to babysit, not kill). Maybe she grabbed the Pooh blanket to place Caylee on it in the trunk. Maybe the blanket was already in the trunk for a living Caylee to sleep on while she was on her date with TL...
Like a makeshift bed. KWIM?