2011.06.22 Sidebar Thread (Trial Day Twenty-five)

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No, it is just that you don't understand the difference between cause and manner and what the ME is legally allowed to declare. It might be helpful if you go back and actually watch the clip of Dr. G., then read the autopsy report and her synopsis.
I think you'd be clear on her reasoning. You are welcome to disagree with her findings of course, but the picture might be more clear for you.

Text below is from Wikipedia, but it's the easiest to understand. The manner of death is DIFFERENT than cause of death. If a person dies from a heart attack, the MANNER of death would be natural and the cause of death would be something like myocardial infarction. If a person commits suicide the manner of death is suicide and the cause something like asphixiation. Either manner of death or cause of death can be UNDETERMINED. Manner = how did a person die and cause = what made a person die. (A cause of death can also be due to another factor, such as the cause of death being acute renal failure, due to or as a consequence of diabetes mellitis.) In Caylee's case, Dr. G ruled that the manner of her death was homicide, but the cause (how the homicide was accomplished), could not be determined.

Forensic autopsy

A forensic autopsy is used to determine the cause of death. Forensic science involves the application of the sciences to answer questions of interest to the legal system. In United States law, deaths are placed in one of five manners:

Natural
Accident
Homicide
Suicide
Undetermined
 
I'm still waiting as are the jurors and probably many of us here on this board and other boards of proof this was an accidental drowning and Casey's molestation accusations against her dad and brother. Tick tock tick tock tick tock.....

Maybe George's mistress will clear it all up for us. :floorlaugh:

I'm going to write a short story entitled, "The Hide And Seek Man And The Case Of The Jacked Up Gatorade Bottle".

See if I don't. ;)
 
Yep, and he had Crystal get rid of the body and Jose knows we will never know where it was because Crystal will never tell us.

Baez never mentioned Crystal. He said Roy Kronk was the body snatcher.
 
Well I have a different opinion

Jose Baez is the kind of guy I wouldn't trust with my brown bag lunch, let alone my life. He would be the kind of guy to take apart my sandwich, lick the peanut butter off the bread, put my sandwich back together and put it back in the bag before returning it to me.
:floorlaugh: great comment Coldpizza.
 
(For those who are interested...)

Casey's Roommate Tells All


In her first interview, the woman who lived with Anthony after her 2-year-old was reported missing tells Diane Dimond about her “crazy” eruptions, romantic interests—and quest for fame.

As the defense team in the Casey Anthony murder trial presents a muddled case of fits and starts, punctuated by several slap-downs of lead defense attorney Jose Baez, a more compelling, never-before-told story about the defendant is unfolding thousands of miles away from the Orlando courtroom.
In an interview with The Daily Beast, Tracy Conroy, of Sacramento, California, is speaking out for the first time about her experience with Casey Anthony in the days immediately following news that her daughter, Caylee, was missing.

For nine days and nights in August 2008, Conroy lived inside the Anthony home and saw firsthand what she described as the “completely narcissistic world” in which Casey operated. “It was always all about her... and when she spoke of Caylee she talked about her in the past tense,” says Conroy. “It was clear to me she knew her daughter was already dead and [the search for Caylee] was all a big game to her.”

click the link to continue reading...

http://www.rr.com/news/topic/article/rr/10374903/44382327/Caseys_Roommate_Tells_All/1
 
The way I read the other case, the detective was accusatory to the defendant, as was YM when he told her that Caylee was probably dead in a trash can, i.e.
Just saying, it is pretty close. They knew Casey had lied about every little thing by then and I am convinced she was a suspect at the time. JMO
I kind of know what you mean. It is pretty close.
 
Peeps! :shocked2:

PLEASE let's have no more rude, bashy, demeaning comments about the appearance of the defendant.

I know this is the Sidebar, but TOS still applies.

Think before you hit that "Post Quick Reply" button my friends, because I want to see all your smiling faces here tomorrow and in coming days.


:tyou:
 
The way I read the other case, the detective was accusatory to the defendant, as was YM when he told her that Caylee was probably dead in a trash can, i.e.
Just saying, it is pretty close. They knew Casey had lied about every little thing by then and I am convinced she was a suspect at the time. JMO

Yes, but the police require probable cause to make an arrest. They would need to have substantial reason to believe a crime had been committed and that the suspect involved had committed that crime. The police were obviously confused as to the lying, and they knew for sure she had done that. But they had no idea why she was lying. You are assuming that they knew it was because she was personally involved in a kidnapping of her own daughter, or a murder. They knew no such thing. All they knew for certain was that she had lied about what had happened to her daughter and was continuing to lie to them about things that were obviously easily disproved.

Outside of being unbelievably confusing, this would also raise more questions than create probable cause. YM was wondering whether she was intentionally hiding her child, for example, from the grandparents (which is not illegal, by the way). He was also wondering whether she was simply refusing to tell them where the child was because it was with a boyfriend, etc., and did not want others to know about the relationship. There were a nearly infinite number of possibilities. None of that adds up to probable cause for an arrest for kidnapping or murder.

We are seeing all of this in hindsight. It is easy for us to read meaning and significance into events as they unfolded three years ago, because we know the whole story now. The police at Universal that day had only begun to take the magical mystery tour into ICA's freak show. They could not possibly have realized that there was a possibility that she had actually done something to her child.

That being said -- I do believe that YM was not being entirely honest in his responses during his initial testimony with JB regarding whether he had any suspicion about what might have happened. He was dealing with a girl who had not reported her child missing for 31 days and then lied to the police with every statement that came out of her mouth. I do not believe that he was not suspicious, and it may well be that all of them thought she was involved and should be considered a suspect.

I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt, but frankly, that makes as little sense as the DT's theory of what happened. In other words, it just defies credulity to imagine that they wouldn't have had some suspicion.

:cow:
 
One question... Do y'all think Casey stopped on Surburban and took Caylee out of the truck and into the woods or is there another entry into those woods..Could Casey have accessed those woods from the Anthony's backyard?
 
I just found out today that Jurors get visits from their families on the weekends, I didn't realize this. I wonder if they are monitored visits to ensure they don't talk about the case. I wonder if some of their families send them signals or hidden messages. I remember during Scott Peterson case on juror said (they weren't sequestered) that he'd be walking down the street and people would pass him by and simply say "Guilty"
 
Yes, but the police require probable cause to make an arrest. They would need to have substantial reason to believe a crime had been committed and that the suspect involved had committed that crime. The police were obviously confused as to the lying, and they knew for sure she had done that. But they had no idea why she was lying. You are assuming that they knew it was because she was personally involved in a kidnapping of her own daughter, or a murder. They knew no such thing. All they knew for certain was that she had lied about what had happened to her daughter and was continuing to lie to them about things that were obviously easily disproved.

Outside of being unbelievably confusing, this would also raise more questions than create probable cause. YM was wondering whether she was intentionally hiding her child, for example, from the grandparents (which is not illegal, by the way). He was also wondering whether she was simply refusing to tell them where the child was because it was with a boyfriend, etc., and did not want others to know about the relationship. There were a nearly infinite number of possibilities. None of that adds up to probable cause for an arrest for kidnapping or murder.

We are seeing all of this in hindsight. It is easy for us to read meaning and significance into events as they unfolded three years ago, because we know the whole story now. The police at Universal that day had only begun to take the magical mystery tour into ICA's freak show. They could not possibly have realized that there was a possibility that she had actually done something to her child.

That being said -- I do believe that YM was not being entirely honest in his responses during his initial testimony with JB regarding whether he had any suspicion about what might have happened. He was dealing with a girl who had not reported her child missing for 31 days and then lied to the police with every statement that came out of her mouth. I do not believe that he was not suspicious, and it may well be that all of them thought she was involved and should be considered a suspect.

I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt, but frankly, that makes as little sense as the DT's theory of what happened. In other words, it just defies credulity to imagine that they wouldn't have had some suspicion.

:cow:
Right, well put. She really gave them no choice BUT to suspect her. It was so obvious. I guess they should have Mirandized her then. Did they fear she would clam up? She did anyway. :(
 
One question... Do y'all think Casey stopped on Surburban and took Caylee out of the truck and into the woods or is there another entry into those woods..Couls Casey have accessed those woods from the Anthony's backyard?
Good question. Maybe she could and knew how to from childhood....
 
One question... Do y'all think Casey stopped on Surburban and took Caylee out of the truck and into the woods or is there another entry into those woods..Could Casey have accessed those woods from the Anthony's backyard?

From photos I've seen of the backyard, there was no access to the woods but that's a good question. Personally, I think she drove there, took Caylee out of the car and dumped her. It would've been too risky to walk around with the garbage bag. I hated typing "garbage" :(
 
Right, well put. She really gave them no choice BUT to suspect her. It was so obvious. I guess they should have Mirandized her then. Did they fear she would clam up? She did anyway. :(

Well, in fairness (because I am not necessarily criticizing the police here), I don't see that they had an easy way to go. The only thing they could have immediately charged her with was lying to LE. They did not know whether Caylee was actually missing. Yes, ICA had told them about the "kidnapping", but it was obvious that she had lied about all of that. So, was it true? How could they know, when the child's mother wouldn't tell them? She was quite calm. Was she hiding Caylee from her mom? Again, they couldn't know.

The charge was the problem. As soon as they found out about the checks, they had something concrete to hold her on.
 
Well, in fairness (because I am not necessarily criticizing the police here), I don't see that they had an easy way to go. The only thing they could have immediately charged her with was lying to LE. They did not know whether Caylee was actually missing. Yes, ICA had told them about the "kidnapping", but it was obvious that she had lied about all of that. So, was it true? How could they know, when the child's mother wouldn't tell them? She was quite calm. Was she hiding Caylee from her mom? Again, they couldn't know.

The charge was the problem. As soon as they found out about the checks, they had something concrete to hold her on.
Yes, I think you hit the crux of it in your last sentence. The charge was their dilemma.
 
Yep per Baez Caylee drowned. So why all the hoopla about finding an unknown hair or gaterade bottle. To prove someone else had the body? Sorry Baez, ICA proved her own timeline wrong. Her computer and cell phone records don't leave her any time for a drowning with in the time frame of "early morning or early afternoon, no it was early morning."

Baez and ICA couldnt state it was an accident and show them where the body was early on. To much evidence of a murder. Duct tape and I'm sure before the body decomposed there was evidence of chemicals, chloroform, zanax etc. Heck maybe there were bruises all over the body.

IMO JB is just way off his game due to a stellar SA his own Ego and a client of the same cloth.
Lack of prep by DT.
Preponderance of SA evidence, which was 'unanticipated' by DT. (DT or JB alone could not fathom that x, y, and z would be allowed into evidence. Therefore, no need to prep.)
True EXPERT witnesses by SA.
non-experts willing to 'testify' for DT.
EXPERT witnesses called by DT supporting SA's FACTS.
And the list goes on and on.

It amazes me every time they go to sidebar & the mounds of evidence become visible (to us viewers) in the courtroom. Just seeing and KNOWING what is in all those packages is a terrifying thought. How is it even humanly possible for the accused and her attorney to bear to be in the same room each day? Facing judge, jury and experts who continually build the case against her brick by brick.

I cannot fathom all of that NOT having any effect.
And wonder if they are of the same species as I... :twocents:
I was taught long ago to pray and forgive. But my most fervent prayers are justice for Caylee. :praying::praying::praying:
 
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