4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #84

[Sundog]

This heinous crime was premediated and carried out ruthlessly to the point it took several weeks to apprehend the killer. I don't believe BK will meet the definition of being criminally insane at the time of the crime.

Those who do meet the expert diagnosis can NOT be sentenced to death but I doubt BK meets the definition.

JMO

In Idaho, in a capital case, a defendant who is found guilty of murder 1 with aggravating circumstances is death-eligible but is also allowed to present mitigating circumstances at his/her sentencing trial. Mental health and other mitigating factors may be brought up at that time, and the defendant/defense does not have to prove mitigating circumstances beyond a reasonable doubt. So the defense will present evidence of various mitigating circumstances, but the defense does not have to convince the jury that the mitigating circumstances presented are such that they are "beyond a reasonable doubt."

In addition, I find it interesting that the sentencing jury does not have to agree unanimously on which of the mitigating circumstances that are presented actually exist, only THAT mitigating cirumstances exist.

Any finding by you that the mitigating circumstances do or do not make the imposition of the death penalty unjust must be unanimous, but you do not have to unanimously agree upon what mitigating circumstances exist. The existence of mitigating circumstances need not be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. You must each decide for yourself whether mitigating circumstances exist and, if so, then consider them in your individual weighing process.

Idaho Code - Jury Instructions on Captal Case
ICJI 1717 Mitigation



edited to clarify source

 

[MyBelle]

In Idaho, in a capital case, a defendant who is found guilty of murder 1 with aggravating circumstances is death-eligible but is also allowed to present mitigating circumstances at his/her sentencing trial. Mental health and other mitigating factors may be brought up at that time, and the defendant/defense does not have to prove mitigating circumstances beyond a reasonable doubt. So the defense will present evidence of various mitigating circumstances, but the defense does not have to convince the jury that the mitigating circumstances presented are such that they are "beyond a reasonable doubt."

In addition, I find it interesting that the sentencing jury does not have to agree unanimously on which of the mitigating circumstances that are presented actually exist, only THAT mitigating cirumstances exist.

Any finding by you that the mitigating circumstances do or do not make the imposition of the death penalty unjust must be unanimous, but you do not have to unanimously agree upon what mitigating circumstances exist. The existence of mitigating circumstances need not be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. You must each decide for yourself whether mitigating circumstances exist and, if so, then consider them in your individual weighing process.

Idaho Criminal Code Capital Case, jury instructions posted above

I can't even begin to imagine what "mitigating circumstance" BK could possibly have.

JMO

 

[katydid23]

I think the only reason the change in what car they identified in the video is important is the fact that there's one bit of information we don't have--when did they get a name back from the sheath.

I don't think they got the name back from the sheath DNA until they did the family tree with the DNA from the PA garbage cans.

They ran the sheath DNA in Codis and didn't get a match. They went to a lot of effort, time and trouble to go the genealogy route to try and match the sheath. And that process didn't start until they had his fathers DNA gathered in PA.

The PCA indicates the examiners were revising their assessment as they viewed more video. This is perfectly reasonable and understandable and normal to many cases and I don't see that as a problem at all. The defense can and will exploit that to create reasonable doubt, that's their job.

If they changed their assessment of what car it was after they had BKs name and knew what he drove, you have to wonder if they changed their minds because they had that information and want the car to fit the defendant and not the defendant to fit the car. As someone who doesn't know cars that well, I would be relying heavily on the expert witness's assessment and they would need to be credible to me. Changing the model or model year with additional experts and video is credible. Changing the model or model year because you now know what the defendant drove is not credible.

They didn't 'change' the model year---they opened up the possible matches by expanding the years to include later models.

I think they realised that the later models looked very similar and they didn't want to rule them all out, prematurely.

They may have received a tip about a criminology student in a neighboring town, who drove a later model Elantra. In looking at further video, they may have decided that they couldn't rule out later model white Elantras altogether.

I don't see that as a problem. That is a normal investigative procedure. Things are fluid and ever changing. JMO

But, reading the PCA, it really seems that they narrowed down the later model Elantra through viewing more video before they had the name from the dna on the sheath. That and the lack of front license plate--if they can show those two things in that timeline, the evidence is very solid against the defendant. Honestly, if they reported that the vehicle lacked a front license plate before they had BKs name, that's way more important and convincing to me than having the make and model right. The chances are so slim that could be a coincidence.

 

[Megnut]

Just because the defense implies something doesn't make it true... suggesting there's something nefarious or withheld in the short step from Sentra to Elantra, as if the Prosecution fit the car to the man and there isn't a DNA match to the man, the weapon and the crime scene.

Regardless, could there have been two cars? A Sentra with two people in the front (think Uber or Lyft or Doordash in a college town) and LE did think they might have seen something, by virtue of being in the general vicinity during the span between 3 and 4:30am -- and they did come forward and LE did confirm.

In another case presently awaiting re-arrest, the defense continues to assert that there's exculpatory DNA that the Prosecution withheld, belonging to career criminals, even though that DNA has been investigated and has no ties at all to the crime at hand.

If the Sentra was another car in the area, now vetted, or the early lead in the investigation, tightened up with clarity, it doesn't help BK. IMO it shows how little his defense has to go on.

All that information (CCTV, warrants, enhancements) is probably buried somewhere in the terabytes anyway, but crying foul is a defense strategy, and frequently an effective one.

Jmo

 

[10ofRods]

Also from the quoted news link:

None of the posts viewed by ABC News suggested Kohberger's alleged illness made him prone to violence. Experts caution that people with mental illness are no more likely to be violent than anybody else. In fact, they are 10 times more likely to be the victim of a violent crime. But in this case, police say Kohberger is their main suspect.

I concur with all the above. IMO, the posts alleged by BK appear to describe symptoms of depression and anti-social disorder whereas research also suggests there is little relationship between mental illness and violence when substance use is NOT involved. I believe there's confirmation of substance use here.

How odd BK can cite a date certain for his alleged onset of VSS or Sept 21, 2009. I'm more inclined to think this was the date of an event such as a boxing incident than the date of a diagnosis.

Relative to the dedicated boxing regime during this period, I think I'd question the homicidal violence as behavior possibly linked to chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE), associated with repeated blows to the head, long before VSS. Star athlete Aaron Hernandez comes to mind. JMO

Many people with VSS are very specific about the date of onset. I have a different visual disorder (not treatable and fortunately, while worsening with age, not debilitating ).

I remember precisely the day that I noticed it. I was 9 years old. I remember exactly where I was standing, who I was with and what I thought about it. it was several years before it was diagnosed (a teacher grew concerned about my vision and asked the school district to send the Vision Bus to our school). It was a combination of a couple of conditions by then.

I do wonder about the CTE too. I know he can't use that as a defense in Idaho (at least I think not), but I think it looks like his nose was broken at some point (comparing that picture of him doing push-ups in high school with how it looks now).

I wonder about a lot of things. VSS is accompanied in many cases by fugue states/derealization and I guess I can imagine how a visual disorder would produce a tendency to that.

At any rate, I do believe it's possible he remembers the onset of it. I'm in contact with parents of VSS sufferers of various ages (people who have seen me mention this topic around the internet) and there's definitely a long process of adaptation to this impairment. My personal impression of Kohberger is that he believed he had pretty much "overcome" the disability/condition, but did not realize just how much of his coping was embedded, as it is for all of us, in familiar, comfortable circumstances

The kind of dissociation that is usually related to VSS is generally not to the level of a full on dissociative disorder. It's not like amnesia or the old stereotypical multiple personality disorder. It's feeling disconnected from reality. There is an absence of flattening of emotions, a lack of thinking or caring about other people even in terms of how they related to you. It's feeling like you are navigating yourself like a character in a first person POV video game.

From my knowledge and family experience, most memory issues that are associated with DP/DR tend to be more around 1) everyday activities ("everything is always the same, I can't really attach any emotions to anything going on, which makes it harder to remember anything in a sea of grey blah)", 2) problems memorizing new information, or 3) remembering very specific details from heightened situations. This is all in general, mind you.

Such good details. It is definitely the everyday activities - and associating people's faces with other aspects of the person. And I can see why. It's a little like prosopagnosia (which Brad Pitt has learned he has). I've known a couple of people with that - it's devastating and requires so much psychological adaptation. They do not depersonalize as much as some other people with neuro-disorders because they learn quickly to use hair and body as markers of identity (but VSS sufferers have equal issues with every single thing they try to look at it).

Kohberger said in the TapATalk messages that his varied in severity and was sometimes better, sometimes worse. I do wonder if his interest in general criminology theory and his interest in digital forensics had to do with their accessibility and lack of need for keen, close observation.

Opinion and speculation. JMO.

 

[Sundog]

I can't even begin to imagine what "mitigating circumstance" BK could possibly have.

JMO

Things like no former criminal charges, mental health issues (e.g. VSS, detachment from reality, dissociative experiences), work record, background, etc.

I think BK's father's testimony on some of these issues could inspire compassion for a member of the jury if he testifies and gives evidence of another side of BK, and it only takes one juror to to decide there is a mitigating factor. It doesn't have to be unanimous, and a mitigating factor doesn't have to be proven beyond a reaonsable doubt.

 

[Idaho transplant]

He was obviously profoundly unhappy but I'm wondering if he had started taking some form of medication officially or unofficially?

Maybe some form of anti anxiety medication or an amphetamine or steroid? JMO MOO pure speculation

The kind of dissociation that is usually related to VSS is generally not to the level of a full on dissociative disorder. It's not like amnesia or the old stereotypical multiple personality disorder. It's feeling disconnected from reality. There is an absence of flattening of emotions, a lack of thinking or caring about other people even in terms of how they related to you. It's feeling like you are navigating yourself like a character in a first person POV video game.

From my knowledge and family experience, most memory issues that are associated with DP/DR tend to be more around 1) everyday activities ("everything is always the same, I can't really attach any emotions to anything going on, which makes it harder to remember anything in a sea of grey blah)", 2) problems memorizing new information, or 3) remembering very specific details from heightened situations. This is all in general, mind you.

Are there statistics available as to the % of the population that has some form of VSS? Are males more susceptible than females to the disorder? You mention feelings associated with the disorder - how does vision come into play and how does that affect the feelings?

 

[Sundog]

I wonder if BK's legal team is already working with a mitigation specialist, since it sounds like the investigation that s/he undertakes could take a fair amount of time, and perhaps even benefit the defense during the trial phase of a capital case (just speculation on the latter). In any event, if BK is found guilty of murder at his trial, then they will need a mitigation specialist during the sentencing phase, and to identify experts to provide testimony.

Given the discussion of VSS on this thread, it is nteresting that this website on mitigiation and mitigation specialists also refers to possible "neurological conditions" as an example of a mitigating factor.

As mitigation has become recognized as a critical part of a capital trial, defense attorneys have turned to mitigation specialists to investigate defendants' backgrounds. Mitigation specialists examine defendants' family history, medical history, educational and employment background, and any other element of an individual's life that may convince the jury to return a sentence other than death. With this information, they assist defense counsel in presenting a coherent case for mitigation. The role of the mitigation specialist is so central to a client's defense that the American Bar Association includes them in their guidelines on the defense in death penalty cases: "The defense team should consist of no fewer than two attorneys…an investigator, and a mitigation specialist." (Guideline 4.1, page 952) In the commentary to this guideline, the ABA says,

"A mitigation specialist is also an indispensable member of the defense team throughout all capital proceedings. Mitigation specialists possess clinical and information-gathering skills and training that most lawyers simply do not have. They have the time and the ability to elicit sensitive, embarrassing and often humiliating evidence (e.g., family sexual abuse) that the defendant may have never disclosed. They have the clinical skills to recognize such things as congenital, mental or neurological conditions, to understand how these conditions may have affected the defendant’s development and behavior, and to identify the most appropriate experts to examine the defendant or testify on his behalf." (Commentary on Guideline 4.1, page 959)

Mitigation in Capital Cases | Capital Punishment in Context

capitalpunishmentincontext.org

 

[Boxer]

Yep. I screwed up my wording. I meant visual cues from video attached to cell data will connect to visual cues on the 3 point turn video.

Connecting the cars for those that claim that Scroedinger’s Elantra disappeared completely at the intersection in Pullman. Only to magically appear in a grocery store parking spot the next morning.

MOO it is a mystery to me, and I believe a general mystery, so far unanswered by any one, or any study. Why given similar life and health circumstances one person with MH or no MH will kill and others do not.
Personal observation is that the old term selfishness plays into creating a kind of thinking that leads to believing an aggressive action towards others serves their purpose. But to counter myself the same way, I also see 99% of selfish people don't kill.

Maybe there is a homicide switch in the brain that causes others to be cast in the enemies of war catagory, and they proceed accordingly.

There is a disportionate number of murders committed by MH in this one way, at the first episode of psychosis.
This is for true schizophrenics who are completely delusional for the first time, and believe what their senses are telling them, for instance that the dog is telling them to kill the person knocking at the door.
This is who insanity pleas were designed for.
But ended the defense ended up exploited for calculated murders, because if course any murder is basically nuts.
Calculated murdering always has many psychological off ramps along the way, which are intentionally not taken.

 

[schooling]

I don't think they got the name back from the sheath DNA until they did the family tree with the DNA from the PA garbage cans.

They ran the sheath DNA in Codis and didn't get a match. They went to a lot of effort, time and trouble to go the genealogy route to try and match the sheath. And that process didn't start until they had his fathers DNA gathered in PA.

reportedly LE did use genealogy to get closer to BK and the trash can sample just confirmed things for them.

whether or not they already had BKs name and used it as a family tree shortcut (working up it, instead of down) is unknown. this is where I suspect the defense team is sniffing around…

My interpretation only. More than happy to be corrected.

 

[MyBelle]

Things like no former criminal charges, mental health issues (e.g. VSS, detachment from reality, dissociative experiences), work record, background, etc.

I think BK's father's testimony on some of these issues could inspire compassion for a member of the jury if he testifies and gives evidence of another side of BK, and it only takes one juror to to decide there is a mitigating factor. It doesn't have to be unanimous, and a mitigating factor doesn't have to be proven beyond a reaonsable doubt.

I think once the jury sees the crime scene photos, any compassion from the jury toward BK will evaporate.

JMO

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I think once the jury sees the crime scene photos, any compassion from the jury toward BK will evaporate.

JMO

oh my gosh will they really have to see them?

I mean do they have to look at them even if they don't want to ? Can they just be satisfied with a medical description of the injuries?

 

[Deleted member 718]

Price of death: What we know about execution costs as Idaho firing squad law takes effect

BY KEVIN FIXLER UPDATED JULY 02, 2023 1:59 PM

Read more at: https://www.idahostatesman.com/news...-politics/article276868683.html#storylink=cpy

 

[10ofRods]

I'm always baffled by the concept of criminally insane even though I fully understand about the being considered not culpable for one's behaviour on the grounds of psychiatric disorder.

My main sticking point is that only someone profoundly 'not sane' would do this. Whereas mercenary killings or hit men are doing a cold blooded heartless job for a reason, this sort of act seems so beyond the pale that how could anyone really argue the killer was of sound mind? Not speaking specific to BK here, speaking in general terms.

Hmm. Interesting set of questions. I know what you're trying to say about insanity.

I have talked to criminals who thoroughly thought (while sitting in jail) that they were perfectly reasonable and justified in their violent crime. I think it's possible that Kohberger, with his Rational Choice Theory - and, perhaps, a particular ideology in mind might have thought that he had reason on his side.

Extreme views are not, in and of themselves, classified as mental illness.

If a person falls under no known DSM category of major mental illness, they are not insane/mentally incompetent in the way that a person who is both schizophrenic and, say, has double Y syndrome might be. Or even just double Y. The law has been trying for more than a century to figure out what to do with this distinction. Generally, very low IQ people end up in the "criminally insane/incompetent" category - is that mental illness? Is everything in DSM mental illness plus some other things?

I don't know.

Nuff said.

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

oh my gosh will they really have to see them?

I mean do they have to look at them even if they don't want to ? Can they just be satisfied with a medical description of the injuries?

I don't know if they can be forced to look at anything.
If a juror isn't willing to look at the crime scene photos, then they should not be on the jury in a death penalty case. The victims and their families deserve their full attention.

JMO

 

[10ofRods]

Are there statistics available as to the % of the population that has some form of VSS? Are males more susceptible than females to the disorder? You mention feelings associated with the disorder - how does vision come into play and how does that affect the feelings?

No one knows for sure. The largest aggregate study I found had 1100 sufferers in the US. They found no differences according to biologic sex.

40% had it for "as long as they could remember" and 60% remembered the onset, almost always before age 18. They found differing degrees of severity and no one who had recovered completely from it.

Visual snow syndrome

Objective To validate the current criteria of visual snow and to describe its common phenotype using a substantial clinical database. Methods We performed a web-based survey of patients with self-assessed visual snow (n = 1,104), with either the complete visual snow syndrome (n = 1,061) or...

n.neurology.org

I mention all this in part because the pictures of BK in court recently. He often seems to "look past" people or to stare with real intensity (you can see the bulging up of his forehead muscles and to me, also tense in the muscles around his eyelids.) Every time we've seen him. And people have told MSM about his "stare." I too think his stare looks fixed, unusual and intense - but couldn't it be the VSS? Because it's exactly the same each time (Indiana traffic stop; all the pictures we've seen of him).

IMO.

 

[10ofRods]

I don't know if they can be forced to look at anything.
If a juror isn't willing to look at the crime scene photos, then they should not be on the jury in a death penalty case. The victims and their families deserve their full attention.

JMO

I am pretty sure that some jurors, over time, have averted their eyes. I think other jurors notice this. I think judges try to excuse overly squeamish jurors, but it isn't completely possible.

I know in at least one trial I've followed, a juror had to be excused for what was basically a panic attack after autopsy photos. They were replaced by an alternate. The alternates were asked if they were okay before being seated (and then chosen at random - although I think some judges have chosen in another method, not sure).

 

[Chloegirl]

Hmm. Interesting set of questions. I know what you're trying to say about insanity.

I have talked to criminals who thoroughly thought (while sitting in jail) that they were perfectly reasonable and justified in their violent crime. I think it's possible that Kohberger, with his Rational Choice Theory - and, perhaps, a particular ideology in mind might have thought that he had reas
Extreme views are not, in and of themselves, classified as mental illness.

If a person falls under no known DSM category of major mental illness, they are not insane/mentally incompetent in the way that a person who is both schizophrenic and, say, has double Y syndrome might be. Or even just double Y. The law has been trying for more than a century to figure out what to do with this distinction. Generally, very low IQ people end up in the "criminally insane/incompetent" category - is that ment

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I don't know if they can be forced to look at anything.
If a juror isn't willing to look at the crime scene photos, then they should not be on the jury in a death penalty case. The victims and their families deserve their full attention.

JMO

Do the jurors have a choice whether to go ahead when they're selected?

If they're told this will be a murder trial involving multiple deaths and the details of the deaths and the crime scene will be very distressing to see and hear... personally I'd be like okay bye call me back for when it's a shoplifting case...

 

[Teche]

I would not rush to assume anything, because up till this day, I don’t know what his sexual preferences were. Basing on the information we have been presented, and especially some earlier interviews with his students, I don’t have any intuitive feeling whether BK was straight, gay, bisexual, aromantic, asexual, or something else. And honestly, no information that we got is very enlightening. I don’t know whether he entered the house (if he did) for a SA, or planned to kill someone, or simply thought there was something in the house he could steal and put to a good use. If there is any story indicating how to define him, I shall be happy to explore it, but isolated information about a failed Tinder date or staring scarily at women doesn’t tell us much. I am slightly surprised that, having grown in the house with a mom and two sisters, he did not develop better social skills with women, though. From one of his student’s account, it seems that BK was less harsh in grading some male students, but it might have also been subjective impression of the interviewee.

I have an adult trans niece who is on the spectrum. She’s college educated and academically gifted and grew up in a loving home with two parents who nurtured and love her. My niece painfully lacks social skills and has the a similar effect as Bryan. I don't imagine growing up with females had much influence on Bryan’s interpersonal skills.