4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #90

[North_Idaho_Nony]

For those following, the tentative location for the Vandal Healing Garden has finally been publicly announced!

“UI President Scott Green wrote in his Friday newsletter that the location is just north of the Shattuck Arboretum and east of the Physical Education Building.”

Paywall free link:
Tentative location set for Vandal healing garden

 

[10ofRods]

Again, I agree that BK was not set up.

It was very late when I made that post. I didn't expand on what I was saying but yes, that would be the other part of it. Why those 4 if just to set him up? As you said, someone who had their own motive for committing this crime. So whoever it was (hypothetically) would have (maybe, speculation) had a problem with BK and KG,MM, XK &EC (or a problem with some of them).

I don't think it's likely either. It just seems like the idea of a setup needs to be discussed in order to see how unlikely it would be. JMO.

People who want to put forward this view could certainly try and find a single other mass murder committed as a set-up.

I wouldn't know how to begin a discussion, otherwise - as I always work from events that have actually taken place. I would be very curious to see how many cases fall under that rubric (or even just "set-up" - but then I'd want to see the person being set-up not having any associations with organized crime or a jilted romance - because I do not think those two things apply here and would consider both to be wild suppositions).

Note that I am talking about some else being romantically jilted - either by Kohberger or ? I would think that the only way a triangle could result in a set-up of Kohberger is that Kohberger was involved in the triangle - I would need to see at least scant evidence.

I would, however, read other people's theories about this. A group of people set him up? Or just one person? But first, please, at least ONE crime where this has been the case in a multiple homicide. If we're just going to go back to "drug dealers" or "cartels," I think that's beyond the limits of my own belief.

IMO.

 

[10ofRods]

I'm just sharing what I found as I didn't know there was another "application" of the term transfer DNA. That's just what I found when I tried to search "transfer DNA" without adding forensics in the search bar. I've mostly only heard it said DNA transfer not transfer DNA.

For the record, I knew what @Charlot123 meant, just didn't know there was an entirely different meaning.

I don't know how you could know. It is a very poorly done Wiki-article (of which I am seeing more and more - possibly because many people my age are aging out of being active Wikipedia editors). And, it appears, that page has been edited back and forth several times, with conflicts on its Talk page regarding the misleading lead paragraph. In that article, at least two vastly different uses of T-DNA (one is actually Ti-DNA) are conflated and written about simultaneously.

It's actually an interesting article about how nucleotides from one lifeform can transfer into other similar lifeforms and create basically a new aspects to the second lifeform's genome. But we are of course discussing forensic transfer DNA.

That article needs major clean-up and hasn't even been tagged yet, for editing. It needs a disambiguation tag at the top - because it is really talking about three very different things by the same name - you couldn't know that and frankly, it would take me a ton of time to find citations and write in an encyclopedic fashion about transfer DNA. Someone with higher editor powers would almost surely revert it because the person who wrote the Ti-DNA article (now a conjoined twin of Touch DNA by wikipedia error) put a lot of work into it and is probably some kind of expert. I think it is someone else who decided that Touch DNA (forensic) and Ti-DNA (in this case, cancer cells) are somehow related. It's actually kind of scary to think that viruses could possibly give each other (and possibly ourselves) cancer.

All I know is that in general, Transfer DNA in forensics and true crime literature is meant to refer to DNA that got onto something from somewhere other than direct interaction with the entity that produced the DNA. This is a pretty loose definition. Touch DNA is usually meant to refer to epithelial cell (skin) DNA - which all of us deposit all day long everywhere we go (and which can be transferred elsewhere - so context of finding DNA is very important).

I'll keep my eyes peeled for a free source that's better - I wandered around on Wikipedia and didn't see anything right away.

Google, btw, disagrees with Wikipedia in its top results, as well - the term is commonly used as we were using it here.

IMO.

 

[Nila Aella]

In the recently published book "While Idaho Slept", the author explains that Moscow PD records initial calls for a "person down" as "unconscious person" even if they are obviously deceased, since the person isn't legally known for sure to be deceased until the coroner declares it.

So the call being officially recorded as for an unconscious person doesn't tell us whether the caller knew they were reporting deaths, or saying "so-and-so isn't responding to calls/texts/knocks on door". Or whether, as we speculated in the early days, one of the surviving roommates had fainted and THAT became the note for the initial LE response.

MOO since I can't link to the text of the book. Which was pretty good, by the way, although not great in my opinion. It definitely felt weird to me to have the story published before trial, and with the near certainty that there will be one or more books written after the trial which will essentially repeat the story and likely make this book obsolete.

I agree. We won't know the content of the 911 call until it is released.

Here is what Chief F said during the first press conference: 25:49

The report that we got was that it was an unconscious individual. It wasn't until our officers arrived on scene, went in to do a caregiving check on the individual who was unconscious, that we found the scene that we found.

JMO MOO IMO

 

[10ofRods]

I agree. We won't know the content of the 911 call until it is released.

Here is what Chief F said during the first press conference: 25:49

The report that we got was that it was an unconscious individual. It wasn't until our officers arrived on scene, went in to do a caregiving check on the individual who was unconscious, that we found the scene that we found.

JMO MOO IMO

It has always sounded to me as if the call was made then X's door could not be fully opened without actually risking injury to a possible unconscious person on the floor. I also believe that DM started trying to get a text response from X right after 11:30, and 28 minutes later, her phone is used to dial 911, but the people in the house *still* don't know exactly what has happened (I think the door was completely shut at 11:30, that a friend (H) came to help by around 11:58 but could not fully open the door due to "unconscious" person.

There are so many different sources of info about that first half hour (most of them not MSM) that it's hard to piece it all together.

I do believe that DM handed her phone off to H, but it's possible they both peeked into the room trying to rouse Xana (or whoever was near the door) and at that point began to see the evidence that this was something horrific. These are just my beliefs and opinions; there are *so* many different sources (and Blum's book doesn't make it easier to figure out, by any means).

IMO.

 

[Baby baby Jane]

People who want to put forward this view could certainly try and find a single other mass murder committed as a set-up.

I wouldn't know how to begin a discussion, otherwise - as I always work from events that have actually taken place. I would be very curious to see how many cases fall under that rubric (or even just "set-up" - but then I'd want to see the person being set-up not having any associations with organized crime or a jilted romance - because I do not think those two things apply here and would consider both to be wild suppositions).

Note that I am talking about some else being romantically jilted - either by Kohberger or ? I would think that the only way a triangle could result in a set-up of Kohberger is that Kohberger was involved in the triangle - I would need to see at least scant evidence.

I would, however, read other people's theories about this. A group of people set him up? Or just one person? But first, please, at least ONE crime where this has been the case in a multiple homicide. If we're just going to go back to "drug dealers" or "cartels," I think that's beyond the limits of my own belief.

IMO.

Why bother “setting him up” when it would have been easier to eliminate him. None of it makes sense from drug gang perspective. Drive-by bullet to BK and it’s done. Getting his dna, put it under a snap on sheath and planting it? Too much effort when your biz is selling drugs to students.

 

[Boxer]

Everything can be convincing. IMHO, DNA part is the weakest one because it is a smudge of DNA found on one item that could be intentionally placed. I just read about Mo Wilson's case. Kaitlin Armstrong's DNA was found on the handlebars, the seat and the frame of Mo's bike. At the same time, there was neither Colin Strickland nor Cash left their DNAs there. So the question of transfer DNA is immediately closed. (Excellent job and presentation of TX LE, btw. They initially slightly dropped the ball, ending in the murderer's escape to CR, but towards the trial, were exceptionally professional).

If we ever heard, "BK's DNA was found on the shield, as well as in this, this, and this area of the house", it would be more convincing. The shield alone makes me wonder. As to the car and GPS, it is a strong point, if it is proven that BK had zero reason to be in Moscow. But here is the weakest point, the history of BK's addiction. He says, shopping is better in Moscow. And he is an addict who for the first time in his life is away from parental house. And there are places in Moscow where drugs are sold, and the King Road house was a party house. And the whole university area is rather small. If we imagine that BK's dealer lived next door to the victims or across the street, or even in the frat, his trips to Moscow can be easily explained. This is the weakness of the case. Some bridges between BK and the victims probably exist, but they are unseen to the public.

MOO The dealer reason to circle and park behind 1122 will be brought forth by defense if they feel can explain his actions. but will it have any weight with out any corroboration?

The bit of DNA on the snap and no other place is easy for me to understand.
Fighting knife sheaths like the one for the Kabar have extremely hard to snap closure straps, especially when fairly new.
So much pressure gets exerted in the first fastenings MOO it would drive skin cells beneath the cap or underneath between cap and post while a person tried to see if the post and cap are actually aligned.
I feel the cells collected by forensics would be from that time, when the knife was new, and cells were retained even after the sheath being cleaned.

And after being cleaned, it was deemed prepared, and subsequently the sheath and knife were only handled with gloves, but the hidden cells remained.

 

[whiterhino]

It has always sounded to me as if the call was made then X's door could not be fully opened without actually risking injury to a possible unconscious person on the floor. I also believe that DM started trying to get a text response from X right after 11:30, and 28 minutes later, her phone is used to dial 911, but the people in the house *still* don't know exactly what has happened (I think the door was completely shut at 11:30, that a friend (H) came to help by around 11:58 but could not fully open the door due to "unconscious" person.

There are so many different sources of info about that first half hour (most of them not MSM) that it's hard to piece it all together.

I do believe that DM handed her phone off to H, but it's possible they both peeked into the room trying to rouse Xana (or whoever was near the door) and at that point began to see the evidence that this was something horrific. These are just my beliefs and opinions; there are *so* many different sources (and Blum's book doesn't make it easier to figure out, by any means).

IMO.

Have WS already discussed the door to Xs' bedroom being closed? Are we presuming that BK closed the door as he made his exit? I assume it's been brought up already, just wondering about the door being difficult to open, how it got to be that way if true. Was anything found on the door or the door handle?

 

[al66pine]

To Test or Not to Test?
Some posters noted that BK's def. attys have not requested (re)testing of DNA on knife sheath. Wondering what they know and how they know it.

A defendant's demand for evidentiary testing may backfire.
That happened in TN. when Kiser, a man convicted in 2003 of murdering a county deputy, requested testing on previously untested palm and fingerprints on the deputy's flashlight and patrol car door.
Unfortunately for Kiser, his 2015 bid for post conviction relief brought none: The prints were his.

New evidence supports Marlon Kiser's murder conviction | Chattanooga Times Free Press

In his quest for acquittal, convicted murderer Marlon Kiser seems to have inadvertently requested new evidence that points to his guilt.

www.timesfreepress.com

 

[10ofRods]

Why bother “setting him up” when it would have been easier to eliminate him. None of it makes sense from drug gang perspective. Drive-by bullet to BK and it’s done. Getting his dna, put it under a snap on sheath and planting it? Too much effort when your biz is selling drugs to students.

I agree. But after one whole year, the same things keep coming up (mostly because we only have the PCA as a source).

I am actually respecting the State for not making a lot of incriminating evidence public. That's ethical lawyering. NONE of it makes sense from drug gang perspective. So, I'd like to know what other "set up" scenarios there could be.

The DNA being planted thing is also very risky (since all of us do breathe which also offers up epithelial (touch) DNA).

IMO

 

[10ofRods]

Have WS already discussed the door to Xs' bedroom being closed? Are we presuming that BK closed the door as he made his exit? I assume it's been brought up already, just wondering about the door being difficult to open, how it got to be that way if true. Was anything found on the door or the door handle?

I just "presume" for myself. I would love to know what others think - although reporting is scant.

Again - I am using deduction. If the door was wide open then X knew immediately that two people had been murdered. The "unconscious person" thing becomes more problematic and H's appearance has a different vibe (surely, if one knew that a murder had been committed and decided to reach out to a friend/acquaintance - they might mention it?)

I personally believe that the door was shut and that DM did not know immediately what lay behind the door. I think she called H. to get help opening the door. I can also believe that someone encountering such a scene would both close the door and their own mind for the first minutes (0-60) of the event.

Nothing in any MSM or LE document says *anything* about doors or door handles - not for the room doors, not for the sliders, nothing (and the Defense hasn't brought it up either). The only thing I can think of that would be "found" in this circumstance would be blood. DNA of all the housemates would be everywhere and show nothing.

I think it's really likely that BK was wearing gloves. He is wearing gloves at his own parents' house about a month later. He's not likely to leave DNA on doors, sliders, windows, etc at 1122 King. This was a VERY planned crime.

IMO. Total speculation above - but at this point, I think it's great to hear various viewpoints on how the data we have might be arrayed. Lots of room for more speculation.

 

[whiterhino]

I just "presume" for myself. I would love to know what others think - although reporting is scant.

Again - I am using deduction. If the door was wide open then X knew immediately that two people had been murdered. The "unconscious person" thing becomes more problematic and H's appearance has a different vibe (surely, if one knew that a murder had been committed and decided to reach out to a friend/acquaintance - they might mention it?)

I personally believe that the door was shut and that DM did not know immediately what lay behind the door. I think she called H. to get help opening the door. I can also believe that someone encountering such a scene would both close the door and their own mind for the first minutes (0-60) of the event.

Nothing in any MSM or LE document says *anything* about doors or door handles - not for the room doors, not for the sliders, nothing (and the Defense hasn't brought it up either). The only thing I can think of that would be "found" in this circumstance would be blood. DNA of all the housemates would be everywhere and show nothing.

I think it's really likely that BK was wearing gloves. He is wearing gloves at his own parents' house about a month later. He's not likely to leave DNA on doors, sliders, windows, etc at 1122 King. This was a VERY planned crime.

IMO. Total speculation above - but at this point, I think it's great to hear various viewpoints on how the data we have might be arrayed. Lots of room for more speculation.

RBBM

I also think BK closed the door.

I was thinking more long the lines of glove "prints" as opposed to DNA or actual prints but if BK closed the door, his gloves must have been layered/clean (if layered, where did he learn this? I know from friends who work in healthcare) or he used something to close it like a rag. Any marks on the door or handle would have likely been seen by DM.

KG and MMs doors were left open, correct? If this was so carefully planned, was BK not expecting DM and BF to be there? Where did he dump all the evidence?? Asking no one in particular, just posing questions.

 

[Auntie Cipation]

KG and MMs doors were left open, correct?

I think KG's door was closed. Murphy the dog was in her room.

KG and MM were in MM's room and I don't recall reading one way or the other about that door.

MOO

 

[Boxer]

RBBM

I also think BK closed the door.

I was thinking more long the lines of glove "prints" as opposed to DNA or actual prints but if BK closed the door, his gloves must have been layered/clean (if layered, where did he learn this? I know from friends who work in healthcare) or he used something to close it like a rag. Any marks on the door or handle would have likely been seen by DM.

KG and MMs doors were left open, correct? If this was so carefully planned, was BK not expecting DM and BF to be there? Where did he dump all the evidence?? Asking no one in particular, just posing questions.

MOO I think he impulsively committed the crime that night.

 

[wendy44]

I wouldn't find it surprising if DM hadn't even come out of her room before the 911 caller got there. I could definitely see a scenario where she was still scared in the morning, was texting the other roommates, getting no response, calling them, getting no response, maybe even hearing their phones ringing. Same with BF. They could have been scared and were texting or calling people who didn't live there to come over before they came out of their rooms. That would explain how students were hearing something had happened before 911 was called and the police got there.

JMO

 

[whiterhino]

MOO I think he impulsively committed the crime that night.

Really? He seemed prepared IMO. If not for the sheath, he wouldn't have been caught. At least, it would've taken much longer IMO.

 

[Boxer]

Really? He seemed prepared IMO. If not for the sheath, he wouldn't have been caught. At least, it would've taken much longer IMO.

MOO he had prepared, just not when and who. Then he suddenly decided.

 

[whiterhino]

MOO he had prepared, just not when and who. Then he suddenly decided.

Prepared... as in preplanning/premeditation? Or as in fantasizing? I think both personally. As far as randomness, I'm not so sure. BK could have walked into anything, I feel like he had some idea of who was there, how many there were etc.

I could see a total psychopath buying whatever is necessary to carry out their fantasy and then looking for a victim, but that could be exactly what BK did.

Also, at least to me, it seems that 1122 is out of the way and the layout is not straightforward or easy to navigate. For BK to have only taken approx 10 minutes to commit 4 murders means he must have known to a degree where he was going. Or at the very least, replayed going through in his mind repeatedly until he memorized it.

 

[Swansee]

Do we have any kind of credible indication as to the type of mask the person seen by DM was wearing? The initial claims were that it was a covid-type face mask. Is this confirmed anywhere?
I've seen discussion on here about a balaclava, but this seems to be pure speculation. Has this point been clarified at all?
I believe if it was a balaclava Dylan would have said so. However, it seems to me if a covid mask would be a poor choice, because it would leave the head exposed thus risking hair loss at the scene.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

RBBM

I said the exact same thing you also said, "On a sheath that matches with the murder weapon." So, we agree!

Your original post said it matches the murder weapon. Again, we don't have the murder weapon, so we don't know that it matches the murder weapon.

We won't know but if BK were in the area buying drugs, doesn't that go towards an alibi? I would have thought so, maybe not.

Not necessarily. Sure if he was buying drugs at the exact same time as the murders, maybe. But his phone was turned off at the exact same time as the murders, so there's no reason for them to even say he was in the area. The only reason to use that alibi is if his phone pinged in the area and they want to say why -- like on the 12 occasions they claim he was in the area or on the morning of the murders after 9 am. That wouldn't prove an alibi for the crime itself, just a reason for his phone to have pinged in the area.

Here is what I found on "DNA transfer". Maybe it is a matter of wording, I'm just sharing what I found when I tried to Google transfer DNA with regard to the sheath. Transfer DNA - Wikipedia
"The transfer DNA (abbreviated T-DNA) is the transferred DNA of the tumor-inducing (Ti) plasmid of some species of bacteria such as Agrobacterium tumefaciens and Agrobacterium rhizogenes (actually an Ri plasmid)."

Yes, it is a matter of wording. This is not what's going on in this case, based on the reports.

MOO