700 dead and rising in disaster at Mecca, Saudi Arabia

  • #21
The only answer to this is to spread out the visits over a longer period of time and have crowd maximums enforced.

I don't understand why it has to be at a certain time of year. If it was opened year round then people could come and visit whenever they want instead of all trying to come at once.

Its so terribly sad and what is so upsetting is it is so preventable.

Respectfully snipped.

Here is a wiki link with a lot more info on the Hajj. (Great pictures, too.)

It can't merely be "rescheduled" (that would be like re-scheduling Holy Week, Good Friday, and Easter for Christians.)

Pilgrims can also go to Mecca to perform the rituals at other times of the year. This is sometimes called the "lesser pilgrimage", or Umrah. However, even if they choose to perform the Umrah, they are still obligated to perform the Hajj at some other point in their lifetime if they have the means to do so.

The pilgrimage occurs from the 8th to 12th (or in some cases 13th[10]) of Dhu al-Hijjah, the last month of the Islamic calendar. Because the Islamic calendar is lunar and the Islamic year is about eleven days shorter than the Gregorian year, the Gregorian date of Hajj changes from year to year. Ihram is the name given to the special spiritual state in which pilgrims wear two white sheets of seamless cloth and abstain from certain actions.[7][11][12]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hajj

This last bit is why many of the corpses in the photos are nude, or clad only in a white cloth.
 
  • #22
K_Z, did you use the pronoun "we" in the generic sense, meaning what the Qu'ran calls on all mankind to do? Because I would love it if we had an actual Muslim to speak for the faith.

Even if you aren't Muslim, I do trust and appreciate your knowledge of beliefs in Muslim countries.

I don't think "inshallah" should be so hard for Americans, at least, to understand. Yes, a lot of us were raised on the adage "God helps those who help themselves", but we also know of snake-handlers and other conservative faiths where everything is attributed to God's will (and/or Satan's intervention).

Thanks, Nova. I'm not Muslim. But I think I have a bit of a unique perspective.

I was a "guest of the Custodian of the two holy mosques" for an extended visit. My job as a U.S. military officer took me to Saudi Arabia, and I lived and worked in the Kingdom (which was no easy task as a woman). I travelled in many of the surrounding countries, as well.

I'm one of the few women who have ever actually driven a car in the Kingdom. Lol. It was quite a spectacle, even though it was only a few miles between bases. After a few weeks of that, I was given my own driver. (Lol!) When I was off base, I had a one stripe airman assigned to me to order my food, and speak on my behalf, and act as my "family escort". This law/ custom was a bit of a problem for the military women, as unmarried women in SA can't go out or travel anywhere without a male family member.

Women can't eat out in the open in restaurants, or order food; there is a "family room" in back where women can eat, and places like ice cream stands have what look like dressing room booths with curtains where a woman may eat ice cream out of the view of men. They close restaurants for prayer times-- and even if your food just arrived, most places will make you leave the premises without eating, because they can be closed down by authorities for not closing during prayers. (Especially if there are Westerners inside.)

I was in SA during the time when we had no status of forces agreement. One of the results of that was after several months there, we women officers were issued black abaya robes to wear off base, and in Riyadh, I had to wear a headscarf as well. I was no longer allowed to just wear my military uniform when off base. But on the plus side,we all had a "stupid American card" to present to the muttawa if they harassed us for offending islam. It was a little hard being a woman military officer-- they often thought we were ARAMCO wives, or British Aerospace wives. There were only a very few U.S. military women there when I was there.

Anyway, I learned an awful lot about islam first hand, during that phase of my life. Sorry for digressing and going off topic! Lots of stories.
 
  • #23
Women can't eat out in the open in restaurants, or order food; there is a "family room" in back where women can eat, and places like ice cream stands have what look like dressing room booths with curtains where a woman may eat ice cream out of the view of men.

In all fairness some malls, banks, and hotels are women only.

Also by the looks of things the segregation rules saved the women from being trampled to death during the stampede, looks like all of the victims were male.

I read an article about single men hiring women to "escort" them into some of the big "family only" malls. There are plenty of rich Saudi women and businesses are happy to take their money.

You’re a young guy with a few hours to waste. The sun is boiling. The tummy is starting to rumble and there in the distance, as if the higher forces had heard your call, is a glistening shopping mall with a food court and female shoppers that would make any mouth water.

But there is no entry says the guard, single men like you need to be with a female relative to enter these ramparts.


The practice of single men paying for a temporary, fake sister or mother as a tactic to gain entry to family-only malls in Saudi Arabia is on the rise.

Shopping malls, restaurants, amusement parks and public institutions in Saudi Arabia are strictly segregated by gender. There are shopping malls open only to women, shopping malls open only to men and shopping malls open only to families (i.e. immediate relatives).

http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Saudi-bachelors-pay-to-get-into-women-only-malls
 
  • #24
  • #25
I know it's very different but...figures are down this year and 'only' 3 million people visited the first week of the Munich Oktoberfest this year. Despite the huge numbers descending on a relatively small space in a centralized city, I don't think there has ever been a crush or stampede. And many people attending are very drunk indeed.

There were added worries this year that trainloads of arriving Muslim refugees would be colliding with drunken revellers, but that logistical problem was handled too.

I guess it would be a no no for a religion that doesn't tolerate alcohol to take any tips from the organizers of a festival that celebrates beer, but I wish Saudi authorities would.

http://www.dw.com/en/munichs-oktoberfest-registers-fewer-visitors-than-last-year/a-18744343

(I declined my invite this year. Even the best beer fills me with more gas than a helium balloon at my age.)
 
  • #26
The head of the Central Hajj Committee, Prince Khaled al-Faisal, blamed the stampede on "some pilgrims from African nationalities," Saudi-owned al-Arabiya TV channel reported.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/09/pilgrims-killed-hajj-stampede-mina-mecca-150924082302232.html

And here you have it. Exactly why it's going to keep on happening. Authorities responsible for this disaster continuing to blame the victims. He should be ashamed of himself. I guess the Prince is one of those responsible for ordering and overseeing the 'investigation'?
 
  • #27
Blaming this catastrophic mismanagement of crowds on black pilgrims is one of the most outrageously ill-educated and racist statements I ever heard. It is just terrible.
 
  • #28
Sources now say the death toll could be 1100. I wonder how they handle all of the bodies? The daily temps are over 100 degrees there. Do they have a fleet of refrigerated trucks kept on standby? Since they have experience with these stampede deaths maybe they have it all figured out (but it sure didn't look like it based on the photos).

I would guess many Muslim majority countries could send a transport plane to retrieve the bodies of their countrymen but it would not be an easy job.
 
  • #29
Islamic burial customs include not embalming the bodies, and prompt burial in a very minimally marked (if marked at all) grave. I doubt the victims were carrying any identification, and I rather doubt there will be much effort at photographing them or attempting to identify them. Burial typically occurs the same day as death, before sundown. It's my strong suspicion that the dead have already been buried in a common grave according to their customs.

I highly doubt any bodies will be returned to their home countries.

I also doubt that there are refrigerated facilities for 800+ bodies.
 
  • #30
Islamic burial customs include not embalming the bodies, and prompt burial in a very minimally marked (if marked at all) grave. I doubt the victims were carrying any identification, and I rather doubt there will be much effort at photographing them or attempting to identify them. Burial typically occurs the same day as death, before sundown. It's my strong suspicion that the dead have already been buried in a common grave according to their customs.

I highly doubt any bodies will be returned to their home countries.

I also doubt that there are refrigerated facilities for 800+ bodies.

They had to have a permit to enter Mecca and participate in the ceremonies so I would think they would be carrying the permit/ID though it seems to be taking quite a while to identify the bodies.

And yes, most will be flown home for burial. Iran is sending a transport plane and expects to bring back over 130 of their dead on Tuesday.

The Saudis practice Wahhabism which is an ultra-conservative form of Islam that encourages unmarked graves. Iranians are primarily Shi'ite and Sunni, they have regular cemeteries with headstones, full slabs and often pictures of the deceased over the gravesite.

Tehran (AFP) - President Hassan Rouhani will fly home early from New York to attend a repatriation ceremony in Tehran on Tuesday for Iranian pilgrims killed in the stampede at the hajj, his office said.

A total of 169 Iranians are now known to have died in Thursday's stampede in Mina, outside Mecca, and the bodies of 130 of them will be flown home on Tuesday, state media reported.

A special section has been set aside in Tehran's largest cemetery for the graves of the "Mina martyrs," city council spokesman Reza Taqipour told state television.

http://news.yahoo.com/irans-rouhani-join-repatriation-ceremony-hajj-dead-080726182.html
 
  • #31
19 Indonesian hajj stampede victims buried in Mecca
http://www.antaranews.com/en/news/100681/19-indonesian-hajj-stampede-victims-buried-in-mecca

"Actually our team has been able to identify them but because the supporting files and data have not yet been found we would not announce them yet," he said.

The supporting data includes hajj bracelet containing name, flight group number, port of embarkation and passport number as well as other documents usually put in the hajj bag of a pilgrim.

"When the incident happened many lost their identity items," Arsyad said.
 
  • #32
http://www.arabnews.com/saudi-arabia/news/812361

The Makkah Secretariat is preparing 74,700 graves across six graveyards which could accommodate some of the martyrs of the stampede in Mina among others, according to the Secretariat's Director of Media, Osama Zaytoun.
 
  • #33
http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...1100-photographs-suggest-rise-hajj-death-toll

Tariq Fazal Chaudhry, an MP from Pakistan’s governing PML-N political party who is leading his country’s response to the disaster, said Saudi officials gave diplomats “1,100 photos” of the dead. Chaudhry told journalists during a news conference broadcast nationwide on Monday night that the photos could be viewed at Saudi embassies and missions abroad.
 
  • #34
Indonesian death toll is now at 41.
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/asean/709924/indonesian-hajj-stampede-death-toll-hits-41

Pilgrims from each country are directed to use different roads to and from Mena.

https://treeangle.co.id/news/40784/...lgrims-die-in-mina-accident-minister-confirms

Based on the information from Head of Work Area of Mecca, Arsyad Hidayat, Saudi Road 204 was not the way passed by Indonesian pilgrims to the Jamarat. The majority of Indonesian pilgrims were directed to the King Fahd and Moasim Road.

“Maybe the Indonesian victims were lost or did not know the road. The road was intended for pilgrims from Egypt, Africa, and South Asia,” he said.
 
  • #35
Good post. But I think it's "inshallah" only some of the time.

How come it's not "inshallah" when a Muslim kid gets in trouble for taking a fake bomb to school?
How come it's not "inshallah" when Germany or Denmark won't let them in?
How come it's not "inshallah" when people draw Mohammed?
How come it's not "inshallah" when people carrying a duty-free bottle of alcohol at the airport need a taxi ride?
How come it's not "inshallah" when a passenger on a plane requests an alcoholic drink?

Inshallah means with the will of God or the hope that God wills it. Example : If someone hopes to have a good day. A Muslim will respond to you by saying inshallah.

Now mashallah means God has willed it whether good or bad. Example. If you told a muslim that you had a great day. They will reply mashallah with a happy tone.

Now if you said that I had a crappy day today. They will still say mashallah. But with a more saddened tone.
 
  • #36
Pilgrims from each country are directed to use different roads to and from Mena.

Based on the information from Head of Work Area of Mecca, Arsyad Hidayat, Saudi Road 204 was not the way passed by Indonesian pilgrims to the Jamarat. The majority of Indonesian pilgrims were directed to the King Fahd and Moasim Road.

“Maybe the Indonesian victims were lost or did not know the road. The road was intended for pilgrims from Egypt, Africa, and South Asia,” he said.

Sources say some roads/entrances were closed because either a Saudi Prince or Dignitaries were visiting. The closures caused a mass of people to accumulate on other roads.

Mohammed Jafari, an advisor to the Hajj and Umrah Travel tour operator in the UK, said: 'Talking to pilgrims on the ground, they say the main reason for this accident was that the King and his palace was receiving dignitaries including the minister of defence and members of the GCC (the Gulf Co-operation Council).

'For this reason, they closed two of the entrances to where the ('stoning of the devil' ritual) happens and they closed two roads... which created two bottlenecks.

'It is the fault of the Saudi government because any time a prince comes along, they close the roads and don't think about the disaster waiting to happen.'

Speaking to Radio 4's Today Programme, he added: 'I get angry because he (Falih) blames God. In every disaster, the Saudis say it is God's will. It is not God's will – it is man's incompetence.'

Ahmed Abu Bakr, a 45-year-old Libyan who escaped the stampede with his mother, also blamed the police, saying they had closed 'all entrances and exits to the pilgrims' camp, leaving only one'.

He added: 'I saw dead bodies in front of me and injuries and suffocation. We removed the victims with the police.'

He said police at the scene appeared inexperienced, adding: 'They don't even know the roads and the places around here' as other survivors nodded in agreement.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...lowed-instructions-avoided.html#ixzz3n7cmL7d5
 
  • #37
Wow...the Iranians and the Saudis are in one huge peeing contest.

An Iranian official, a cultural minister, wanted to escort the bodies of Iranians home from Mecca yet the Saudi's refused to give him a visa.

Apparently a few months ago Iran banned all non-Hajj travel to Saudi because an Iranian family returning from a trip to Mecca supposedly were separated by security from their two teen boys at the airport and allegedly the boys were raped/sexually abused by Saudi Airport Security personnel! First stories said rape, later the claims were changed to sexually assaulted.

Iran has suspended flights for pilgrims to Muslim holy places in Saudi Arabia in protest over the alleged sexual assault of two Iranian boys by Saudi security officials, Iranian Culture Minister Ali Jannati said on Monday.

Jannati said that Saudi authorities have pledged to punish those responsible.

“We have spoken to Saudi officials through diplomatic channels and they have promised to punish the persons in custody,” he said. “They even asserted that they would execute them but nothing has been done in reality so far.”

The two teenagers claim that they were abused by security guards at the Jeddah airport in March after making the Umra pilgrimage to Mecca. Iran’s Foreign Ministry has said that airport security separated the two boys, ages 14 and 15 from other passengers for “body searches.”

http://www.rt.com/news/249337-iran-suspends-pilgrimage-saudi/
 
  • #38
Respectfully snipped.

Here is a wiki link with a lot more info on the Hajj. (Great pictures, too.)

It can't merely be "rescheduled" (that would be like re-scheduling Holy Week, Good Friday, and Easter for Christians.)






https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hajj

This last bit is why many of the corpses in the photos are nude, or clad only in a white cloth.


Thanks KZ and everyone for helping us understand the customs. This does help understand why its a certain time of year.
 
  • #39
Sources say some roads/entrances were closed because either a Saudi Prince or Dignitaries were visiting. The closures caused a mass of people to accumulate on other roads.

Wow. Common sense should have told them you cant just close roads with that many people.

That part seems very preventable. Just always have a special path that dignitaries can come there. Have a little tiny path blocked off just for the dignitaries and it would not affect any of the public.
 
  • #40
Any time a religion (or any belief system) says " It's the will of god..." when something happens-- especially a preventable stampede and ensuing tragedy -- I find it incredibly sad and unfeeling.
Do not mean to offend ,but to my way of thinking, that belief or principle just seems insensitive. :(
:moo:
 

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