8 Die in Crash on Taconic State Parkway

[Openmind]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Her blood alcohol was [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif].19, the[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]re was undigested vodka in her stomach, [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]a vodka bottle at the scene, and the drugs in her system. I am not sure how th[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]ose detail[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]s can be ignore or excused away. Even if she suffered some unprecedented medical calamity or took prescribed medications[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif], those would just complicate and further debilitate her due to her already excessive alcohol consumption.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]If they are so [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]sure she could not have been drunk, [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]the family should do a second toxicology repo[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]rt, [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]and they [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]have to live with the results[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif].[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] [/FONT]

 

[southcitymom]

All right, y'all....I am off to bed! See you tomorrow! :blowkiss:

 

[Openmind]

I agree....My husbands boss grows his own, and had a secret room built in his house while it was being built 2 years ago so he could grow it there and he has lights and fans to air it out w/o it going through out his house. Most likely they grew it or knew someone who did.

Oh, my -- LOL.

I don't do drug so I am having a hard time trying to figure out needing drugs so bad that I would go to all this trouble and expense. I bet the boss doesn't think he has a drug problem either.

How do you define "recreational" drug use?

 

[VCDaedalus]

SSRIs can help with serotonin issues just as insulin helps with pancreatic issues. Depression is an organic disorder that can be successfully treated for some people with medication.

No, no, no, no, and no. Depression is not in any way, shape, or form to be compared with diabetes. I heard that lie too.

You can test a diabetic for insulin levels. Can you do that for serotonin levels with a depressed person? NO.

Every diabetic shows the same symptoms--excessive thirst, urination, weight loss. Does every depressive show the same symptoms? NO.

Can you do a blood test for insulin levels? Yes. Can you a blood test for serotonin levels? NO.

Do diabetics consistently respond exactly the same way to administration of insulin? YES. Do depressives respond exactly the same way to administration of SSRIs? NO.

Diabetes is a recognized, measurable failure of one body's organ to produce enough insulin to metabolize sugar. Every diabetic has the same symptoms, and every one responds the same when their insulin levels are restored.

Depressives have a wide variety of symptoms, from mania to insomnia to hypersomnia, anorexia or overeating, sex or no sex, acting out or being passive. There is no blood test for depression.

The only "chemical imbalance" in your brain is the one you have now, created by administration of serotonin reuptake inhibitors. It's a shame and a pity that your doctor is willing to feed you such lies, or to be so ignorant or careless in her knowledge of these drugs. Drug companies are very influential, as is group think and drug-company sponsored "symposiums on depression."

Again, I'm willing to bet you $100 that there is no proof--or even the argument anywhere in REAL peer-reviewed medical research--that depression is caused by a possibly inherited imbalance of serotonin-related brain chemistry.

 

[Kat]

I keep thinking of things to say but I'm too slow and somebody else says it first lol..

I do want to say that the theory of antidepressants or some other psychotropic medication contributing to what happened, is the best one I have heard so far.

I don't know anything about tox screens really, and just wonder, do they have to be looking for a particular drug to find it? Or can they just test for classes of drugs...

Holy lurking mode Elf! I'm glad you decided to post though Don't hold back!

 

[VCDaedalus]

I would think Barbara would WANT it known at trial (and well well before trial) if she was taking something like that or had been given something like that. What am I failing to follow in your train of thought?

Excellent point. Barbara may want to do just that.

Let's see. If the initial tox report said she had a high level of, say, Lexapro, Barbara could claim medication intoxication. There is precedent for that (plenty).

Why would he want that information suppressed? You're right, he would probably want to use it.

In the Joseph Wesbecker Prozac case, Eli Lilly went to the plaintiffs and bought them off. They got money in exchange for exercising some privilege they had to keep evidence out of the trial, leading to acquittal for Eli Lilly. That was later overturned, but the publicity went to the first verdict, not the overturn. The details are online but not at my fingertips.

If Barbara could win this high-profile case on SSRI intoxication, it would open a huge can of worms for doctors, psychiatrists, social workers, school counselors, even teachers. Malpractice and civil suits out the wazoo.

None of this may have happened, of course. She might have been just alcoholic and stoned. But the deliberate driving, the navigation of curves, the control she had over her vehicle--that's hard to understand in a drunk, which is why I think she may have been on amphetaminoids (which is essentially what SSRIs are--slow-acting amphetamines). Very focused, very driven, very impaired, very sick.

 

[VCDaedalus]

Barbara may want the medical records suppressed because they could show that she had no other extant medical condition--or that her alcoholism was apparent to her doctor and noted in his records even if no further steps were taken (calling her husband, for example). Doctors are busy, and might not want to get in the intervention business. You never know how a husband might respond to the news that his wife's an alky, even if it comes from a doctor. People often don't have the stereotypical caring, much-involved family GP anymore, either.

 

[CatMama3]

SSRIs can help with serotonin issues just as insulin helps with pancreatic issues. Depression is an organic disorder that can be successfully treated for some people with medication.

No, no, no, no, and no. Depression is not in any way, shape, or form to be compared with diabetes. I heard that lie too.

You can test a diabetic for insulin levels. Can you do that for serotonin levels with a depressed person? NO.

Every diabetic shows the same symptoms--excessive thirst, urination, weight loss. Does every depressive show the same symptoms? NO.

Can you do a blood test for insulin levels? Yes. Can you a blood test for serotonin levels? NO.

Do diabetics consistently respond exactly the same way to administration of insulin? YES. Do depressives respond exactly the same way to administration of SSRIs? NO.

Diabetes is a recognized, measurable failure of one body's organ to produce enough insulin to metabolize sugar. Every diabetic has the same symptoms, and every one responds the same when their insulin levels are restored.

Depressives have a wide variety of symptoms, from mania to insomnia to hypersomnia, anorexia or overeating, sex or no sex, acting out or being passive. There is no blood test for depression.

The only "chemical imbalance" in your brain is the one you have now, created by administration of serotonin reuptake inhibitors. It's a shame and a pity that your doctor is willing to feed you such lies, or to be so ignorant or careless in her knowledge of these drugs. Drug companies are very influential, as is group think and drug-company sponsored "symposiums on depression."

Again, I'm willing to bet you $100 that there is no proof--or even the argument anywhere in REAL peer-reviewed medical research--that depression is caused by a possibly inherited imbalance of serotonin-related brain chemistry.

You win. I'm finished here.

 

[VCDaedalus]

And people DO get outright suicidal on SSRIs, which is why there's a warning on the label. She may have been in her first two weeks of samples, and alcoholic damage to her brain may have made her more susceptible.

So she's on the highway, in trouble, about to be found out, going the wrong way, her whole life about to be turned upside down because she can't get off the highway and even if she does the police will find her and then it's all over for her, all over. She screwed up big time. She may even have forgotten, in her hyperexcited confusion, that there were children in the car. She may literally have been unable to hear them because she could have been hallucinating. She may have become hyperfocused due to the pot, with tunnel vision from the alcohol.

 

[daisy7]

VC - thank you for your posts and exploring this interesting theory.

Respectfully, how would one explain the alcohol and pot in her system?

 

[Kat]

I wouldn't imagine that the tox screens were completely back yet.

It is my understanding that it can take up to weeks for those to be processed. I have never seen it done in a matter of days...has anyone else?

However, the Blood alcohol level and other simple tests such as marijuana could come back quickly.

Perhaps the ME chose to release that information given the high level of alcohol found in her system and the residue in her stomach as well ~supported that the crash was more than likely caused by alcohol (maybe a contributing factor of pot). In fact, I can't disagree with the ME because that level of alcohol is astronomical. IMHO

When you think of it that way, it does seem to be a bit premature announcement. Yes she had alcohol levels through the roof~ but did she have anything else on board?

We won't know until the complete autopsy is released, if it is released.

 

[Bobbisangel]

Reb,

I'm not a medical professional, just a garden variety addict who has been in close contact with addicts of all stripes and shapes for almost 15 years now. In my opinion, NO ONE goes from a drink or toke here or there to what was found in this woman's system (and the circumstances in which it was found in her system - driving 5 children home from a family weekend) in a less than 4 hour time span.

I mean I hate to say never because there's always a first time for everything under the sun and I surely don't think I've seen it all.

That said, I choose 1b - she had a drinking problem and her husband was unaware of this. That's the only scenario that makes complete sense based on what we know so far, and it is a scenario that will be repeated in other households across the world daily (but, usually, without so much death attached).I've met this woman many times. I've been this women.

There but for the grace of God go I. I remember driving home from a bar many years ago so drunk that I don't have a clue how I got there. I never was much of a drinker but every once in a while I would get a wild hair and really hang one on. Just out of a marriage...because he was a drunk!!!...and was having a great time...I thought! I didn't have kids in the car...it was just me but what if I had gone head on into a car that had kids in it. What if I had killed everyone in the other car.

I was a social drinker...not an alcoholic...but I did drink and drive and I could have caused a bad wreck leaving people dead. Maybe it was the same for Diane S. Everyone is so sure she was an alcoholic but she might not have been. She may have drank more then she planned to that day and got drunk without even realizing the shape she was in. I think that is a possibility. People that saw her along the way said she wasn't acting drunk...when she got food for the kids. Maybe she didn't eat and the alcohol hit her harder then it would have if she had eaten something. She knew something was wrong because she called her brother and told him she wasn't feeling well.

I only wish she had stayed where she was and waited for her brother to come and get them.

 

[Native New Yorker]

It has been mentioned before, but I would love to know why none of the kids were belted in, or the little ones in car seats? All except Diane were thrown from the car.....I would have to guess this was standard for her, or the older ones would have objected, buckled in anyway....a very sad aspect to this case.....

 

[STEADFAST]

I'm not sure what anti-depressants have to do with this thread. The autopsy didn't mention them, the family didn't mention them, the attorney didn't mention them.

The equivalent of 10 oz of liquor in her blood stream, plus undigested liquor in her stomach, plus eyeballs filled with liquor, plus some amount of pot = erratic driving and terrible accident.

And, just a heads up, there are blood tests to test a person's serotonin level. http://pennhealth.com/encyclopedia/em_DisplayArticle.aspx?gcid=003562&ptid=1

 

[truecrimejunkie]

I would have to agree that the level of alcohol was really high and i can easily see how it caused the crash. (if the report is correct, and i doubt they would make a mistake of this magnitude) Many eons ago during my college party days i was busted for a dui and blew a 0.20. I dont even remember it, i was pretty much in a blackout. Very lucky i didnt kill anyone. It was a life changing event.

 

[Indianagirl]

There but for the grace of God go I. I remember driving home from a bar many years ago so drunk that I don't have a clue how I got there. I never was much of a drinker but every once in a while I would get a wild hair and really hang one on. Just out of a marriage...because he was a drunk!!!...and was having a great time...I thought! I didn't have kids in the car...it was just me but what if I had gone head on into a car that had kids in it. What if I had killed everyone in the other car.

I was a social drinker...not an alcoholic...but I did drink and drive and I could have caused a bad wreck leaving people dead. Maybe it was the same for Diane S. Everyone is so sure she was an alcoholic but she might not have been. She may have drank more then she planned to that day and got drunk without even realizing the shape she was in. I think that is a possibility. People that saw her along the way said she wasn't acting drunk...when she got food for the kids. Maybe she didn't eat and the alcohol hit her harder then it would have if she had eaten something. She knew something was wrong because she called her brother and told him she wasn't feeling well.

I only wish she had stayed where she was and waited for her brother to come and get them.

Hi Bobbisangel!
I just wanted to say that the only thing I see wrong with the social drinker scenario is the fact that she wasn't drinking with others and by the looks of it, was just drinking in the car, driving with several children in it.

I just don't see a social drinker, drinking under these circumstances. That's just my 2 cents.

 

[VCDaedalus]

It may be true that serotonin levels in the blood can be measured--but even if they can, the levels do not correspond to the symptoms of depression (and the test is NOT done to diagnose depression but to diagnose "carcinoid syndrome").

There are depressed people and non-depressed people whose serotonin blood levels are the same. Extremely depressed people do not show a low level of serotonin in their blood. There is no measurable level of serotonin in the blood that will alleviate depression the way a measurable amount of insulin will relieve diabetes.

SSRIs are part of this discussion because bizarre behavior is not unknown when taking these drugs. When mixed with alcohol and pot, the effect of a dose of SSRIs could be very unpredictable and harmful.

SSRIs are part of this discussion because I brought them into it with my theory of how Diane Schuler got to such a state of mind that she could be impaired but not pass out, be in some sort of distress but also be confused as to what was happening to her, and become hyperfocused and manically driven to first try to get home, then make a mistake, and then realize that her mistake meant that her problem would be exposed. SSRIs have warning labels about suicide risk. That's why I think they're relevant to this conversation.

Serotonin is everywhere in the body and it acts on many more organs than the brain. Mess with someone's serotonin levels and the natural uptake process, and you mess with their entire body.

 

[Bobbisangel]

I copied and pasted a few paragraphs from this article. I hope you don't mind, bogeygal. I think it is important for people to know the victims.

The seat at the head of the table will stay empty this afternoon.
For as long as his daughters can remember, Michael Bastardi occupied the prime position at his Italian-American family's weekly Sunday meal: meatballs, baked ziti, a nice gravy.
Sometimes the patriarch brought dessert - homemade cream puffs or cheesecake, made fresh in his kitchen. The close-knit clan would argue politics, and "Gramps" might dote on his 10 grandkids.
But not today. And not any Sunday ever again.


http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local...3_killed_in_gruesome_crash.html#ixzz0NhDwI5N3

Not only did the grandfather get killed in the accident but so did his son who I believe was 49 yrs. The grandpa and uncle were headed for their regular Sunday dinner with the rest of the family.

I want to add that the article said that the family have received sympathy
cards from the parents of the three little girls who died in the wreck. To me that tells me what the parents of the little girls are like. What compassionate thoughtful people. I don't know how they were even thinking straight after the loss they have suffered. Bless all of these people.

 

[Bobbisangel]

a clear bio-chemical imbalance

If you research the medical literature (NOT WebMD or Merck websites) there is NO SUCH THING as a "bio-chemical imbalance." It is a complete and utter fallacy. I would bet you $100 that I'm right. Contact me personally if you care to.

As I said, I'm not trying to come between anyone and their medication. But SSRIs are by no means an unmitigated blessing to the depressed. And because serotonin's effects in the body and on mood are so poorly understood, no one can predict exactly how an individual will respond to SSRIs. Many do not respond. Many quit because of side effects. Some take them for years, try to quit (like when they lose their medical insurance and have to pay $300 a month for a scrip), and find they can't. I hope that doesn't happen to you.

As I said, I speak from experience, and there are many like me who won't take SSRIs ever again. I'm living proof that bone-deep, life-crushing, self-mutilating, suicidal depression can be conquered without drugs (and even after going through withdrawal), without Jesus, without That Special Someone, without winning the lottery, and without a month in Sierra Tucson or some other recovery spa.

I have taken an antidepressant for about 13 yrs all total. I started taking them after the murder of my daughter. I believe that taking them saved my life. Every so often we have had to up my dosage because of suicidal ideation. I had a little 4 1/2 yr old granddaughter to raise and couldn't allow myself to go off the deep end or commit suicide. To date I have taken three different antidepressants. Right now I am taking Paxil and it works just great except for extreme sweating which has happened with everyone I've taken.

I am in the process of cutting back on the paxil now. My doctor is taking it down by 10 mgs every two weeks until I am off of it. I want to see if I can do this and I want to see if the sweating will stop. If I find my mind racing and I'm having suicidial thoughts I will go right back on it and probably take it forever.

 

[Gozgals]

SSRIs can help with serotonin issues just as insulin helps with pancreatic issues. Depression is an organic disorder that can be successfully treated for some people with medication.

No, no, no, no, and no. Depression is not in any way, shape, or form to be compared with diabetes. I heard that lie too.

You can test a diabetic for insulin levels. Can you do that for serotonin levels with a depressed person? NO.

Every diabetic shows the same symptoms--excessive thirst, urination, weight loss. Does every depressive show the same symptoms? NO.

Can you do a blood test for insulin levels? Yes. Can you a blood test for serotonin levels? NO.


Do diabetics consistently respond exactly the same way to administration of insulin? YES. Do depressives respond exactly the same way to administration of SSRIs? NO.

Diabetes is a recognized, measurable failure of one body's organ to produce enough insulin to metabolize sugar. Every diabetic has the same symptoms, and every one responds the same when their insulin levels are restored.

Depressives have a wide variety of symptoms, from mania to insomnia to hypersomnia, anorexia or overeating, sex or no sex, acting out or being passive. There is no blood test for depression.

The only "chemical imbalance" in your brain is the one you have now, created by administration of serotonin reuptake inhibitors. It's a shame and a pity that your doctor is willing to feed you such lies, or to be so ignorant or careless in her knowledge of these drugs. Drug companies are very influential, as is group think and drug-company sponsored "symposiums on depression."

Again, I'm willing to bet you $100 that there is no proof--or even the argument anywhere in REAL peer-reviewed medical research--that depression is caused by a possibly inherited imbalance of serotonin-related brain chemistry.

Every diabetic does not respond the same way to insulin. there are very brittle diabetics. Also, injection sites and length of disease also plays a part. We do not show the same symptoms either when shocking depending on what is wrong with us on top of diabetes. We may present other medical problems, complications. . When I shock, I seizure. I do not shake, nor do I get hungry. It is also individual. There are standards and averages. I know this from having childhood diabetes for 32 years.

Thank you

Goz