A few questions

[Little Jedi]

Both blood and non blood DNA was found at the alert sites consistent with the indications. The blood dog was brought in ONLY when the cadaver dog alerted first and as you would expect, ONLY alerted to the blood DNA sites.

Eddie did not alert to any blood, only cadaver.

Keela didn't alert to any cadaver, only blood.

The science then confirmed their findings. DNA consistent with Madeleine WAS located at the alert sites, and only at the alert sites.

Here's a simple explanation ( & link )

EDDIE

" It’s important to understand that Eddie is trained only to scent the presence of the special type of cadaverine released by a human corpse."

KEELA

" She has been trained to ignore decomposing body materials other than human blood "

" Keela, the blood-hound, found the smell of blood - note, blood, not just ‘body fluids’ "

"Thought to be the only one of her kind,"

http://www.cwporter.com/mccann.htm

OFFICIAL PJ FILE PROFILE

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm

This does not match the fss report, could you please link to where in the fss blood was identified?
Also it is misleading to state the DNA was consistent with madeleine without stating it was consistent with other people including her family. Your statement gives the false impression the DNA was madeleines.

And the evrd was deployed all around the car, there is a video showing his handler calling the dog back after he ignores the car.

KEELA only alert to Human Blood !!
KEELA is the dog that marked the area inside the vehicle !!

You need to read up on Martin Grime, his dogs & SPECIFIC training techniques.

His dogs are also trained ( & qualified ) & work regularly for the F.B.I., as well as being the first to be allowed to give evidence in U.S. Courts ( Bianca Jones )

He is VERY highly accredited in numerous countries.

He has also explained in detail how they work & what they mean in his PJ Files.

The edited video released is only about 4 mins out of approx. 90.

Quite clearly Eddie gets very excited near the car as he pick the scent up,

Again M. Grime explains what's happening in his reports.

That is untrue.
First if you believe the dogs then the DNA came from blood from a living person. If you don't believe the dogs then all you can say is that the substance was unidentified.
The material contained 37 markers from at least three people possibly up to five. 15 of these are found in madeleines DNA, however they are found in her parents DNA too and it is not known how many people the markers came from.

It is a complete fabrication to say that it indicated a decomposing madeleine mccann was in the car.

I really don't understand what you are trying to say here. It doesn't make sense.
I think you are confused in your understanding of these specific dogs & alerts.

(see link above)

You need a link here, or I will remove this post.

Thank you,

Salem

I've posted one above as SS is having trouble adding Links.

 

[Clutchbag]

I'm still really unclear. Does this mean there was 'old' blood on the car keys? How did that happen? There must be some distinction somewhere between 'fresh' and 'old' blood for it to have some forensic use.

Do you mean that the dogs did not detect cadaverine, but they did detect blood? That would point to a struggle and the body moved either before or extremely soon after death, wouldn't it?

And I certainly don't blame the McCanns for addressing the dog's findings - but to dismiss them as inaccurate and false? That seems just downright strange to me. I would be utterly devastated if signs pointed to the death of someone in my home, but I doubt my reaction would be to claim it couldn't possibly be true, when I had no evidence whatsoever to the contrary.

Once the story of the dog alerts broke the mccanns went out of their way to dismiss their capabilities and credibility big time, via their lawyers and also in tv interviews saying cadaver sogs are "incredibly unreliable" that was in 2007 and 2009 fast forward to 2011 and kate mccann wrote in her book that the dogs were only alerting to please their master! She also wrote cadaver scent last no longer an amonth which is a lie

:floorlaugh:

 

[Captain_Khan]

Once the story of the dog alerts broke the mccanns went out of their way to dismiss their capabilities....big time, that was in 2007, fast forward to 2011 and kate mccann wrote in her book that the dogs were only alerting to please their master! She also wrote cadaver scent last no longer an amonth which is ********

:floorlaugh:

It always struck me as strange. If the McCanns are innocent, then the only possible logic behind this is that maybe they were afraid people would stop looking for Madeleine if the public believed she was dead? As I mentioned earlier, wouldn't it make a lot more sense to simply state that the inquiry is in the hands of the police, and people must remain alert for sightings of the child? Arguing about the reliability of the dogs and how it couldn't possibly be true just seems so suspicious.

 

[Salem]

You will have to double check the files for the exact dates. But what's wrong with gerry getting the pillow, why ask the police if he was there anyway?

Actually, our TOS requires that when asked, you provide a link. You don't send someone else to do your work.

I'm beginning to feel like a broken record here. You NEED to provide links, please, especially when asked.

Salem

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Was any blood evidence found in this case? And I'm talking about blood, not a dog alert that was from a dog trained to alert to human blood.

 

[Clutchbag]

Was any blood evidence found in this case? And I'm talking about blood, not a dog alert that was from a dog trained to alert to human blood.

no not in the labs but the blood hound can find it in such small proportions the scientists arnt capable of keepin up, they have said so themselves...dogs noses are special

 

[Deleted member 39678]

no not in the labs but the blood hound can find it in such small proportions the scientists arnt capable of keepin up, they have said so themselves...dogs noses are special

That's what I thought. Nothing to confirm the dog alert. Thanks for refreshing my memory.

 

[Clutchbag]

That's what I thought. Nothing to confirm the dog alert. Thanks for refreshing my memory.

No, no remains, no pool or spatters of visible blood, just microscopic amounts of blood the blood dog signalled for which yielded dna information

If there were remains or blood to be seen there would be no need for a cadaver or blood dog to be employed in the firat place and they dont get employed for no reason.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

No, no remains, no pool or spatters of visible blood, just microscopic amounts of blood the blood dog signalled for which yielded dna information

If there were remains or blood to be seen there would be no need for a cadaver or blood dog to be employed in the firat place and they dont get employed for no reason.

I thought that LE has ways of finding the presence of blood that can't be seen by using things like luminol.

The search for the presence of blood at a crime scene is normally done by close visual examination. The possibility exists, however, that blood may be present in amounts too little to see with the unaided eye, or that the blood at the scene had been “cleaned up” prior to arrival of the crime scene team. Scientists can take advantage of the luminol reaction to locate potential blood evidence that would be undetectable through visual examination.

Was this used in this case? It would make more sense to use the dog to locate ares that should be tested using things like luminol. If it came up positive then you have confirmation for the alert.

I have doubts about these dog alerts. MOO.

https://dps.mn.gov/divisions/bca/bc...es/forensic-programs-crime-scene-luminol.aspx

 

[~n/t~]

I thought that LE has ways of finding the presence of blood that can't be seen by using things like luminol.



Was this used in this case? It would make more sense to use the dog to locate ares that should be tested using things like luminol. If it came up positive then you have confirmation for the alert.

I have doubts about these dog alerts. MOO.

https://dps.mn.gov/divisions/bca/bc...es/forensic-programs-crime-scene-luminol.aspx

I don't think luminal was used however samples were collected and sent to be tested. The results were inconclusive. In other words they were not unique to her.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7541810.stm

 

[Deleted member 39678]

I don't think luminal was used however samples were collected and sent to be tested. The results were inconclusive. In other words they were not unique to her.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7541810.stm

BBM

I think that your talking about DNA. As far as I can tell there was no blood evidence found in this case. MOO.

 

[~n/t~]

BBM

I think that your talking about DNA. As far as I can tell there was no blood evidence found in this case. MOO.

The view of the wardrobe in Maddie’s room, right, shows the spot where controversial forensic “evidence” was found——a bloody footprint which was visible to the naked eye.

Inconclusive lab tests found there was a “moderate” chance the blood was Madeleine’s.

There was a report that this footprint matched another in the McCanns’ hire car—although there has never been any confirmation of this.

-------

If, or as seems increasingly likely, when, the full story of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann is revealed, one question will demand an answer: why did detectives wait three months before bringing in sniffer dogs?

Traces of blood were found earlier this week by specially-trained springer spaniels in Madeleine's bedroom in Praia da Luz. Samples taken from the scene are now being tested by British forensic scientists.

Whatever the outcome, there can be no doubt that the job of linking them to the missing three-year-old girl - and possibly even finding her - has been made harder by the delay.

The wonder is that the traces of blood were found at all. Invisible to the naked eye, they have almost certainly been subject to scrubbing and cleaning agents. But then, sniffer dogs are trained to perform such wonders on a daily basis

Using simple Pavlovian stimulus-and-reward methods, their handlers train them to sniff out substances ranging from bodily fluids to drugs and explosives. The secret of their success lies in their noses - more specifically, their olfactory epithelium, an area of scent-detecting cells which is 50 times larger in dogs than in humans.

The sensitivity of these cells is astounding, allowing dogs to detect molecules in concentrations 100 million times weaker than humans can manage. This was how one dog deployed in the Algarve nailed the murderer of Attracta Harron in 2006, detecting traces of her blood in her assailant's burned-out car.

Scrubbing, detergents, masking scents, incineration: these four-legged molecule hunters will take it all in their stride - if only humans give them the chance.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id157.html

 

[~n/t~]

UK lab to test blood found in Madeleine room
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/aug/07/ukcrime.madeleinemccann

 

[Deleted member 39678]

The view of the wardrobe in Maddie’s room, right, shows the spot where controversial forensic “evidence” was found——a bloody footprint which was visible to the naked eye.

Inconclusive lab tests found there was a “moderate” chance the blood was Madeleine’s.

There was a report that this footprint matched another in the McCanns’ hire car—although there has never been any confirmation of this.

-------

If, or as seems increasingly likely, when, the full story of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann is revealed, one question will demand an answer: why did detectives wait three months before bringing in sniffer dogs?

Traces of blood were found earlier this week by specially-trained springer spaniels in Madeleine's bedroom in Praia da Luz. Samples taken from the scene are now being tested by British forensic scientists.

Whatever the outcome, there can be no doubt that the job of linking them to the missing three-year-old girl - and possibly even finding her - has been made harder by the delay.

The wonder is that the traces of blood were found at all. Invisible to the naked eye, they have almost certainly been subject to scrubbing and cleaning agents. But then, sniffer dogs are trained to perform such wonders on a daily basis

Using simple Pavlovian stimulus-and-reward methods, their handlers train them to sniff out substances ranging from bodily fluids to drugs and explosives. The secret of their success lies in their noses - more specifically, their olfactory epithelium, an area of scent-detecting cells which is 50 times larger in dogs than in humans.

The sensitivity of these cells is astounding, allowing dogs to detect molecules in concentrations 100 million times weaker than humans can manage. This was how one dog deployed in the Algarve nailed the murderer of Attracta Harron in 2006, detecting traces of her blood in her assailant's burned-out car.

Scrubbing, detergents, masking scents, incineration: these four-legged molecule hunters will take it all in their stride - if only humans give them the chance.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id157.html

So there was blood evidence found in this case. Do you have a link to show why the DNA tests (I assume they did DNA tests) where inconclusive?

 

[~n/t~]

So there was blood evidence found in this case. Do you have a link to show why the DNA tests (I assume they did DNA tests) where inconclusive?

It's so complicated so I'll just link it for you to read.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id268.html

 

[Morag]

...regarding DNA. As I recall, the McCanns used IVF treatment to conceive their children. Would it be usual to do amniocentesis or CVS (chorion vilii sampling- not sure about the spelling) in cases of IVF pregnancies? I have a copy of my son's DNA profile from when I had CVS testing. That would certainly provide an accurate copy of Madeleine's DNA.

 

[SapphireSteel]

So there was blood evidence found in this case. Do you have a link to show why the DNA tests (I assume they did DNA tests) where inconclusive?

Low copy DNA is more open to error due to its nature.

Right now at least.

This science is improving daily.

The tests were "inconclusive" only because the amplified results are not 100%.

In Madeleine case initial results showed 15/19 alleles belonged to M. It was not 100% required for conviction more like 75% certainty which to Joe Bloggs seems more than enough but the McCann. Supporters use that 25% doubt as "proof of innocence" while ignoring the enormous elephant in the lounge room -

The cadaver dog found DNA consistent with Madeleine in the boot of a car hired 24 days after she disappeared.

Obviously if M was abducted that night cadaver should not have been located at all, nor DNA.

 

[SapphireSteel]

The view of the wardrobe in Maddie’s room, right, shows the spot where controversial forensic “evidence” was found——a bloody footprint which was visible to the naked eye.

Inconclusive lab tests found there was a “moderate” chance the blood was Madeleine’s.

There was a report that this footprint matched another in the McCanns’ hire car—although there has never been any confirmation of this.

-------

If, or as seems increasingly likely, when, the full story of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann is revealed, one question will demand an answer: why did detectives wait three months before bringing in sniffer dogs?

Traces of blood were found earlier this week by specially-trained springer spaniels in Madeleine's bedroom in Praia da Luz. Samples taken from the scene are now being tested by British forensic scientists.

Whatever the outcome, there can be no doubt that the job of linking them to the missing three-year-old girl - and possibly even finding her - has been made harder by the delay.

The wonder is that the traces of blood were found at all. Invisible to the naked eye, they have almost certainly been subject to scrubbing and cleaning agents. But then, sniffer dogs are trained to perform such wonders on a daily basis

Using simple Pavlovian stimulus-and-reward methods, their handlers train them to sniff out substances ranging from bodily fluids to drugs and explosives. The secret of their success lies in their noses - more specifically, their olfactory epithelium, an area of scent-detecting cells which is 50 times larger in dogs than in humans.

The sensitivity of these cells is astounding, allowing dogs to detect molecules in concentrations 100 million times weaker than humans can manage. This was how one dog deployed in the Algarve nailed the murderer of Attracta Harron in 2006, detecting traces of her blood in her assailant's burned-out car.

Scrubbing, detergents, masking scents, incineration: these four-legged molecule hunters will take it all in their stride - if only humans give them the chance.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id157.html

When (if) the details of this cases are revealed people will likely be shocked at the politics.

Senior members of the UK govt had their fingers in the pie since almost the first hour.

Please read Amarals book if you haven't already - he clearly explains this was never a straightforward case, he and his team suffered from political interference from the first day.

Back in the olden days I was taught about the separation of powers in a healthy democracy.

The church isn't supposed to tell the schools how to teach, the lawyers aren't supposed to tell the police the inside details, the POLITICIANS are not supposed to steer the actions of the Judiciary or LE.

This case has made a mockery of all of that, and nearly ruined a previously close relationship between the two countries.

In fact I would go so far as to say Britain has taken a massive backward step in the eyes of the world. I once believed Britain was a true democracy, wel that illusion is totally shattered. The line between the Establishment and the rest of us has been clearly redrawn.

 

[SapphireSteel]

...regarding DNA. As I recall, the McCanns used IVF treatment to conceive their children. Would it be usual to do amniocentesis or CVS (chorion vilii sampling- not sure about the spelling) in cases of IVF pregnancies? I have a copy of my son's DNA profile from when I had CVS testing. That would certainly provide an accurate copy of Madeleine's DNA.

Absolutely it could.

It would take a UK court order to force release though.

Hopefully SY is working on that.

The PJ was not even supplied with her medical records.

 

[InspectorGadget]

The results are inconclusive because the alleles could have come from multiple sources, for example both parents. The alleles are consistent with Amelie's DNA and therefore it cannot be proved that this is Madeleine's DNA. Even if it could be proved to be Madeleine'S DNA, what would it prove?

Low copy DNA is more open to error due to its nature.

Right now at least.

This science is improving daily.

The tests were "inconclusive" only because the amplified results are not 100%.

In Madeleine case initial results showed 15/19 alleles belonged to M. It was not 100% required for conviction more like 75% certainty which to Joe Bloggs seems more than enough but the McCann. Supporters use that 25% doubt as "proof of innocence" while ignoring the enormous elephant in the lounge room -

The cadaver dog found DNA consistent with Madeleine in the boot of a car hired 24 days after she disappeared.

Obviously if M was abducted that night cadaver should not have been located at all, nor DNA.