A few questions

[~n/t~]

Like Dave Edgar or Metodo 3?

The were both hired by Team McCann then promptly sacked when they came too close to the truth.

The suppressed e-fit came from Edgar iirc. There are also some very telling clips of DE prevaricating on YouTube - some would say, lying. Intriguing before the news about the e-fit suppression came out, now positively compelling.

Investigations are supposed o be unbiased by their very nature.

This case has already been investigated by countless PIs, the Police forces of at least two countries (twice over) and no one has found hide nor hair of the "abductor" apart from those few wee instances of accusing dead people and a good Samaritan.

Yes they're supposed to be unbiased but we know they will side with whoever pays their bill. My suggestion was more towards a third party with no connection to the McCanns. Perhaps a former detective who could relook the case with an open mind.

Again just a thought.

 

[~n/t~]

The window was allegedly the "break out" window rather than the break IN window.

In fact after initial denials both McCann's suddenly "remembered" that they locked neither door so the window was completely unnecessary, unless the 3 burglars were mentally impaired. In through an unlocked door, out a window with your captive...awkward, noisy, and totally ridiculous when most folks would just walk straight out the way they came in - an unlocked door. :banghead:

The story kept changing. It was originally the break in window.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Yep.

Seasoned observers know that "changing stories" is actually "lying".

 

[Supernovae]

Regarding the Amniocentesis thing: what sort of information would be on an amniocentesis report? Clearly not a full profile. I'm not an expert but my understanding is that the type of DNA profiled for karyotyping or to look for an anomaly would be very different from those used for identification. By definition those areas of DNA used for identification are those that vary widely between individuals, which come from junk or non-encoding DNA as , with encoding DNA, there's a limit to what works biologically in terms of having a living baby at the point at which you're doing the amniocentesis let alone a basically healthy three year old.

DNA profiling - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Would this information be shown on the report unless there was a specific question of paternity? If not it might not be any help, unless they have the original samples stored- which seems unlikely.

In any case I don't think there's any question over the identity of the control sample. If it's a female McCann child, and not Amelie, there's really no one else it could be.

 

[Supernovae]

Going back to the point Brit1981 made about the Leveson enquiry, way back:

"At the same inquiry UK police stated under oath that they were aware the stories implicating the McCann's, including the ones about DNA, were false but when journalists asked if they were true they refused to comment as they did not want to upset the Portuguese police."

I believe that that's a slightly misleading characterisation. I believe she is referring to Matt Baggott, the then Chief Constable of Leicestershire police's evidence.

The transcript is available here from pages 68-82:

http://www.levesoninquiry.org.uk/wp...script-of-Afternoon-Hearing-28-March-2012.pdf

Video is available here (I'm not sure if it's viewable outside the UK or with a UK proxy)- search for Baggott:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/hi/bbc_parliament/newsid_9700000/9700221.stm

About 1:41 hours to 2:03 hours.

His statement is here:

http://www.levesoninquiry.org.uk/wp...tement-of-Chief-Constable-Matthew-Baggott.pdf

He says there were false reports, not that all the reports were false. Factually there's very little said that we don't already know (that the DNA was reported to be Madeleine's when it was in fact inconclusive). As to not upsetting the Portuguese police, they thought it would be both professionally inappropriate in terms of maintaining the integrity of the investigation and undiplomatic in terms of maintaining the confidence of their Portuguese counterparts, to anonymously brief.

Its also interesting for what he doesn't say: he doesn't directly ally himself to the characterisation of the McCanns as innocent and maligned despite having the opportunity to do so. He talks about general unfairness, potentially prejudicing future proceedings and hampering the investigation into Madeleine's (who was herself innocent) disappearance, but not that.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Yep.

There is absolutely no doubt the British media has been behaving like the schoolyard bully for years.

There is no doubt they shamelessly embellished stories and printed falsehoods, breached all sorts of privacy, libel and moral laws awhile they were at it.

There is ALSO no doubt that some of their covert earwigging has got hold of some juicy, image shattering stuff - hands up who remembers when a married Prince Charles wished to transform himself into a feminine hygiene product for his equally married mistress? :scared:

After Levenson they have been thoroughly smacked down and frightened. The threat of life-ruining fines and/or jail has silenced the most rabid sensationalists for now.

Or should I say, refocused their attentions on those without access to a team of expensive lawyers like Mick Philpott and his ilk.

As far as accurate reporting on more litigious parties - ain't gonna happen.

Once of a baying pack of wild and hungry mutts, the Brit media has been reduced to a tiny tired lap dog, happy to consume and regurgitate the spin hand fed to them by expensive PR.

I honestly don't know which s worse. Thank God for the internet.

 

[Clutchbag]

Equally, the DNA in the car may have been consistent with Madeleine's but it would also have been consistent with Amelie's, or both parents. Being consistent does not mean that it is Madeleine's DNA, only that it could be hers.

What does consistent with her dna mean? Does anyone here know? madeleines dna profile is NOT the same as her other siblings

 

[SapphireSteel]

DNA slicing yet again when we have the CPS involvement, the libel case interrupted, AND the suppressed e-fit to talk about, let alone the shenanigans on the Find Madeleine site!!!

Forget the DNA and the dogs, much more is going on!!!

 

[Little Jedi]

The PJ suspect she was hidden then moved much later, and the traces in the trunk are decomposition fluids hence the cadaver alert.

Equally, the DNA in the car may have been consistent with Madeleine's but it would also have been consistent with Amelie's, or both parents. Being consistent does not mean that it is Madeleine's DNA, only that it could be hers.

By all accounts it seems the PJ were convinced by whatever the evidence was actually found to show.


Bearing in mind we only have access to limited section of the actual files,

I thought this was VERY interesting;

(NOTE: From Casey Anthony Case)

"Results of examinations:

A Caucasian head hair found in specimen Q12 exhibits characteristics of APPARENT DECOMPOSITION at the proximal (root) end."

(snip)

Q12 Debris from left side oftrunk liner (Item Q-l2)

Q 1 2.1 Hair from specimen Q12 debris from left side of trunk liner.


Now what were we saying about the files that were NOT released ??

Anyone find any reports on the 'analysis' of the hair found in the Renault Scenic ??

(Or anything regarding the hair)

http://tinyurl.com/od5jypl

 

[InspectorGadget]

Yes unfortunately it was not well preserved that night because they were looking for a missing child who most thought had wandered off.

We know the DNA was inconclusive but there is no reason there would be Madeleine's blood anywhere. Yes we can chalk it up and say well she was a three year old and could have gotten scrapes from playing etc etc. As far as I know the McCanns haven't said Madeleine nor the twins were injured or bled during playtime. So why was there blood?

Phone records alone won't prove anything. First of all they have to locate these alleged suspects and question them before any arrests can be made. Even if they were in the area there is no proof they were inside Apt 5A. It would be very difficult to prove after all these years

Time to go back to the old case files IMO. A third party unbiased PI should look at them. There might be something there that was missed.

JMO

Well I'm not sure there was blood. Not sure either whether the McCanns have said anything about children bleeding or not. If there was blood, how long had it been there and whose was it? How would it further the investigation?

Agree the phone records won't prove anything by themselves, but they might help to identify suspects. I think that SY are going back to the old case files - wouldnt they have better access to information than a pi?

I do agree, difficult after all these years, but when you look at cases like Jaycee Lee Dugard, it is not impossible that she is still being held somewhere.
Not impossible either that one or other of the parents or their party killed her, but without any proof I think they should be given the benefit of the doubt. MOO!

 

[InspectorGadget]

What does consistent with her dna mean? Does anyone here know? madeleines dna profile is NOT the same as her other siblings

It means that the alleles that they have could be from Madeleine's DNA. It is not a full DNA profile that they have. The alleles could also be from her parents or other family members. The twins get half their alleles from each parent and they had also been in the car. Agree their DNA not the same as Madeleine's but some of their alleles could be the same. IMO press at the time sensationalised these results without explaining what "consistent" meant, or anything about DNA.

When forensics took the sample DNA from Madeleine's pillow, they said it was consistent with her DNA based on the profiles of both her parents, so good to be used as a sample.

HTH

 

[CHERIE.T]

Well I'm not sure there was blood. Not sure either whether the McCanns have said anything about children bleeding or not. If there was blood, how long had it been there and whose was it? How would it further the investigation?

Agree the phone records won't prove anything by themselves, but they might help to identify suspects. I think that SY are going back to the old case files - wouldnt they have better access to information than a pi?

I do agree, difficult after all these years, but when you look at cases like Jaycee Lee Dugard, it is not impossible that she is still being held somewhere.
Not impossible either that one or other of the parents or their party killed her, but without any proof I think they should be given the benefit of the doubt. MOO!

B b m

Thank you

 

[brit1981]

Yes unfortunately it was not well preserved that night because they were looking for a missing child who most thought had wandered off.

We know the DNA was inconclusive but there is no reason there would be Madeleine's blood anywhere. Yes we can chalk it up and say well she was a three year old and could have gotten scrapes from playing etc etc. As far as I know the McCanns haven't said Madeleine nor the twins were injured or bled during playtime. So why was there blood?

Phone records alone won't prove anything. First of all they have to locate these alleged suspects and question them before any arrests can be made. Even if they were in the area there is no proof they were inside Apt 5A. It would be very difficult to prove after all these years

Time to go back to the old case files IMO. A third party unbiased PI should look at them. There might be something there that was missed.

JMO

Can you link to the source for your blood claim.

The fss report linked tohtmle does not identify blood or madeleine's DNA.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id268.html

This statement from a previous guest states he cut himself and bled. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAUL_GORDON.htm

What's interesting about this is that in the Portuguese version it says he bled for three quarters of an hour which is a long time. However, this site has made comments regarding translation issues and has suggested he said four to five minutes and this was misheard as forty five minutes. This is entirely feasible, and he would have been asked to sign a Portuguese translation of what he said as no transcripts of what the interviewees actually said were made so he would not have picked up on any errors. Now imagine if his wife was questioned and said four to five minutes, but was heard correctly so that in the translation of her interview there is a forty minute inconsistancy with what her husband said to police. There have been other examples of possible translation issues with his interview highlighted such as differences in what is considered the first day of the week in different parts of Europe (some people consider Sunday to be the first day of the week, others Monday). Now if the happened to the mccanns it would be used against them as an inconsistency.

 

[brit1981]

By all accounts it seems the PJ were convinced by whatever the evidence was actually found to show.


Bearing in mind we only have access to limited section of the actual files,

I thought this was VERY interesting;

(NOTE: From Casey Anthony Case)

"Results of examinations:

A Caucasian head hair found in specimen Q12 exhibits characteristics of APPARENT DECOMPOSITION at the proximal (root) end."

(snip)

Q12 Debris from left side oftrunk liner (Item Q-l2)

Q 1 2.1 Hair from specimen Q12 debris from left side of trunk liner.


Now what were we saying about the files that were NOT released ??

Anyone find any reports on the 'analysis' of the hair found in the Renault Scenic ??

(Or anything regarding the hair)

http://tinyurl.com/od5jypl

I do not see the relevance of using evidence in another case on the other side of the world us, the fact Casey Anthony transported the body of her child in the car does not mean that the parents of other missing children did the same.
The idea that there are forensic reports, which could implicate the family, missing is incorrect as this link goes through the withheld files and they are related to anonymity and privacy issues of individuals such as paedophiles (the mccanns have every detail of theirs given out but convicted criminals get anonymity!) http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MISSING_PAGES.htm

The pj had access to all the files and in the final report stated there was no evidence against the mccanns and no evidence to say whether madeleine was dead or alive. Not only that but it leasts reasons why they think the mccanns were not involved including telephone analysis, witness statements, their behaviour, and then goes onto say that the indications that ked to aguido status were not in the end confirmed as being correct, nasmely the dog alerts and dna analysis. It also states that it does not appear possible for the mccanns to have hidden a body. This also enables us to dismiss the claim that the pj are convinced the mccanns hid the body, retrieved the body weeks later then drove it around in their car before hiding it again. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm

 

[brit1981]

Yep.

There is absolutely no doubt the British media has been behaving like the schoolyard bully for years.

There is no doubt they shamelessly embellished stories and printed falsehoods, breached all sorts of privacy, libel and moral laws awhile they were at it.

There is ALSO no doubt that some of their covert earwigging has got hold of some juicy, image shattering stuff - hands up who remembers when a married Prince Charles wished to transform himself into a feminine hygiene product for his equally married mistress? :scared:

After Levenson they have been thoroughly smacked down and frightened. The threat of life-ruining fines and/or jail has silenced the most rabid sensationalists for now.

Or should I say, refocused their attentions on those without access to a team of expensive lawyers like Mick Philpott and his ilk.

As far as accurate reporting on more litigious parties - ain't gonna happen.

Once of a baying pack of wild and hungry mutts, the Brit media has been reduced to a tiny tired lap dog, happy to consume and regurgitate the spin hand fed to them by expensive PR.

I honestly don't know which s worse. Thank God for the internet.

If the media print truth litigation is pointless. English libel law, despite claims, is in fact fairly simple in cases like this. If the defendant has proof of their claims then they are home free, and they will not even pay their own costs. Even if they obtained information illegally they are covered by the public interest rule.
UK libel law is only draconian when it comes to libel tourism, the fact it did not take into account whether harm had actually been caused or could potentially been caused. But these have been addressed by the defamation act.

As for mick philpott, he was a man with a criminal conviction for breaking into a teenage girls home and trying to stab her to death. Years later he became a reality tv star by appearing on Jeremy kyle show and some fly on the wall programmer with an mp to talk about how he had two wives, ten children and got thousands in benefits. Then he was convicted of setting fire to his hone and burning six of his children to death. He was convicted on the evidence including the fact the fire was found to be arson, started from inside with the exact same fuel that he had all over his clothes ( a different type of fuel from that he claimed to have accidently spilled on himself doing something innocent). I don't think he deserves the implied victim status you gave him.

 

[brit1981]

Like Dave Edgar or Metodo 3?

The were both hired by Team McCann then promptly sacked when they came too close to the truth.
can you provide a link to a source for this claim. I have seen nothing to suggest either got close to finding what happened, or that they were sacked as opposed to not having contracts renewed

The suppressed e-fit came from Edgar iirc.

can you provide a link to say they were suppressed. The police had the e-fits. Also halligan produced the e-fits

There are also some very telling clips of DE prevaricating on YouTube - some would say, lying. Intriguing before the news about the e-fit suppression came out, now positively compelling.

given halligan and oakley produced the e.fits I don't see how. And I don't see any evidence he was lying, and its up to the police to decide when to release the efits.

Investigations are supposed o be unbiased by their very nature.

This case has already been investigated by countless PIs, the Police forces of at least two countries (twice over) and no one has found hide nor hair of the "abductor" apart from those few wee instances of accusing dead people and a good Samaritan.

in actually fact it was investigated by the pj and private investigators. Scotland yard conducted a review and Started an investigation last summer which continues as we speak. Pj have found new evidence and reopened the investigation. It was down to the mccanns petitioning scotland yard became involved. Links to these have been provided in previous posts.

See previous posts for links.

 

[~n/t~]

Can you link to the source for your blood claim.

The fss report linked tohtmle does not identify blood or madeleine's DNA.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id268.html

This statement from a previous guest states he cut himself and bled. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAUL_GORDON.htm

What's interesting about this is that in the Portuguese version it says he bled for three quarters of an hour which is a long time. However, this site has made comments regarding translation issues and has suggested he said four to five minutes and this was misheard as forty five minutes. This is entirely feasible, and he would have been asked to sign a Portuguese translation of what he said as no transcripts of what the interviewees actually said were made so he would not have picked up on any errors. Now imagine if his wife was questioned and said four to five minutes, but was heard correctly so that in the translation of her interview there is a forty minute inconsistancy with what her husband said to police. There have been other examples of possible translation issues with his interview highlighted such as differences in what is considered the first day of the week in different parts of Europe (some people consider Sunday to be the first day of the week, others Monday). Now if the happened to the mccanns it would be used against them as an inconsistency.

UK lab to test blood found in Madeleine room
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/aug/07/ukcrime.madeleinemccann
The view of the wardrobe in Maddie’s room, right, shows the spot where controversial forensic “evidence” was found——a bloody footprint which was visible to the naked eye.

Inconclusive lab tests found there was a “moderate” chance the blood was Madeleine’s.

There was a report that this footprint matched another in the McCanns’ hire car—although there has never been any confirmation of this.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id21.html

Cadaver odour is indicated in the McCanns bedroom by the wardrobe, in the living room behind a sofa and a light scent indicated outside in a flowerbed. A blood indication is made behind the sofa.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id161.html


If you look at previous pages there was discussion about blood and DNA. Albeit the results were inconclusive, blood was found in the apt that may have been Madeleine's.

 

[brit1981]

UK lab to test blood found in Madeleine room
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/aug/07/ukcrime.madeleinemccann
The view of the wardrobe in Maddie’s room, right, shows the spot where controversial forensic “evidence” was found——a bloody footprint which was visible to the naked eye.

Inconclusive lab tests found there was a “moderate” chance the blood was Madeleine’s.

There was a report that this footprint matched another in the McCanns’ hire car—although there has never been any confirmation of this.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id21.html

Cadaver odour is indicated in the McCanns bedroom by the wardrobe, in the living room behind a sofa and a light scent indicated outside in a flowerbed. A blood indication is made behind the sofa.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id161.html


If you look at previous pages there was discussion about blood and DNA. Albeit the results were inconclusive, blood was found in the apt that may have been Madeleine's.

OK, but none of those actually confirm blood was found or identified as madeleine's. You have a 2007 guardian report based on leaks which were later proven to be false ( see the fss report and leveson inquiry I linked to). The mccann file links take you to early false media reports, and the dog report which did not confirm blood being there, just indicated it could be. Neither did the dog alerts identify the person.

The forensic report confirms no material tested was identified as madeleine's or blood.

I really think it is unfair for media reports to be used as sources when those reports have been found to be false and this has been admitted to by the media. Later articles have pointed out that the rumours about blood and DNA etc were unfounded.

 

[~n/t~]

Can you link to the source for your blood claim.

The fss report linked tohtmle does not identify blood or madeleine's DNA.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id268.html

This statement from a previous guest states he cut himself and bled. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAUL_GORDON.htm

What's interesting about this is that in the Portuguese version it says he bled for three quarters of an hour which is a long time. However, this site has made comments regarding translation issues and has suggested he said four to five minutes and this was misheard as forty five minutes. This is entirely feasible, and he would have been asked to sign a Portuguese translation of what he said as no transcripts of what the interviewees actually said were made so he would not have picked up on any errors. Now imagine if his wife was questioned and said four to five minutes, but was heard correctly so that in the translation of her interview there is a forty minute inconsistancy with what her husband said to police. There have been other examples of possible translation issues with his interview highlighted such as differences in what is considered the first day of the week in different parts of Europe (some people consider Sunday to be the first day of the week, others Monday). Now if the happened to the mccanns it would be used against them as an inconsistency.

Quoting your post again regarding the fss report and your claim that no blood was identified. You have to scroll down at the link where it says perishable samples.

It says the laboratory has examined one or more of the samples listed below and they list the samples. The first one on the list is blood samples.


http://www.mccannfiles.com/id268.html

 

[brit1981]

Low copy DNA is more open to error due to its nature.

Right now at least.

This science is improving daily.

The tests were "inconclusive" only because the amplified results are not 100%.

In Madeleine case initial results showed 15/19 alleles belonged to M. It was not 100% required for conviction more like 75% certainty which to Joe Bloggs seems more than enough but the McCann. Supporters use that 25% doubt as "proof of innocence" while ignoring the enormous elephant in the lounge room -

The cadaver dog found DNA consistent with Madeleine in the boot of a car hired 24 days after she disappeared.

Obviously if M was abducted that night cadaver should not have been located at all, nor DNA.

Could you please provide a source to support you claim that the results were inconclusive because amplified materials were used. I have found nothing to support your claim.

Scientifically you are incorrect to suggest that the DNA found was 75% madeleines. A sample of thirty seven alleles were found in the mccann family car and these came from there, four or five people. Fifteen of these alleles are found in the DNA of madeleine however as she is the biological daughter and granddaughter of the mccanns and Healy's, then every single one of these fifteen alleles is found in their DNA too. The fss could not say how many people the 15 alleles came from either so it is impossible to state those fifteen alleles even came from one person let alone identify that person. So those fifteen alleles could have come from any mccann or Healy who used the car.
I have linked to the fss report a couple of posts above, and the rest is genetics so should not need a link, but just in case this might help http://www.nature.com/scitable/topi...aits-by-offspring-follows-predictable-6524925

Please could you show the source for saying the cadaver dog found dna in the boot. Grimes report, which has been linked to, states only the blood dog alerted in the boot and that whilst Eddie alerts to old blood he will not alert to flesh blood whetas keela the blood dog alerts to both http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm.

I also think it misleads people to state the DNA was consistent with madeleines without pointing out the DNA was consistent with her entire family.