A few questions

[brit1981]

Here's one regarding 2)

"However, all of the confirmed DNA components within this result match the corresponding components in the DNA profile of Madeline McCann.

LCN DNA profiling is highly sensitive it is not possible to attribute this DNA profile to a particular body fluid."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm

That means nothing as all of madeleines components match her parents and other family members. Thats how inheritance works.

 

[SapphireSteel]

If you are going to say things as if they are fact you have to source it.

Thanks the mods have told me.

The thing is when a case has been the topic of hot discussion for eight years I fall into the trap of assuming other posters have the same familiarity with the sources. There is 8 years of links kwim?

Also some very kind posters have been supplying links for me, thanks for that! Because they too know the case almost inside out and know exactly where the info I refer to can be found.

The Mccannfiles are a source I refer to heavily as do the IDI's. It is widely acknowledged to be the best and most thorough information source on the web.

 

[Little Jedi]

I do not see the relevance of using evidence in another case on the other side of the world us, the fact Casey Anthony transported the body of her child in the car does not mean that the parents of other missing children did the same.
The idea that there are forensic reports, which could implicate the family, missing is incorrect as this link goes through the withheld files and they are related to anonymity and privacy issues of individuals such as paedophiles (the mccanns have every detail of theirs given out but convicted criminals get anonymity!) http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MISSING_PAGES.htm

The pj had access to all the files and in the final report stated there was no evidence against the mccanns and no evidence to say whether madeleine was dead or alive. Not only that but it leasts reasons why they think the mccanns were not involved including telephone analysis, witness statements, their behaviour, and then goes onto say that the indications that ked to aguido status were not in the end confirmed as being correct, nasmely the dog alerts and dna analysis. It also states that it does not appear possible for the mccanns to have hidden a body. This also enables us to dismiss the claim that the pj are convinced the mccanns hid the body, retrieved the body weeks later then drove it around in their car before hiding it again. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm

BBM : Then you obviously were already aware of my previous posts relevance !

I didn't state any of that theory, only that the PJ were convinced Maddie was no longer alive.

As you keep stating "there's no blood evidence' the question raised as how, why or what could the sample found be & how they concluded it wasn't from twins etc.

* Note : DNA is the same whether Alive or Dead.

* The 'case on the other side of the world' quite clearly is irrelevant.
I stated it in brackets for reference.

 

[brit1981]

Here's a couple about LCN DNA :

THE INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF EVIDENCE & PROOF

' In specific terms, three key consequences of amplifying LCN DNA which can lead to different DNA profiles being observed:

(a) allele drop-out may occur because one allele of a heterozygote locus can be preferentially amplified

(b) stutters may be preferentially analysed—these are sometimes known as false alleles; and

(c) the method is prone to sporadic contamination—amplifying alleles that are not associated with the crime stain or sample.'

___________________

Low Copy Number DNA profiles

"First, the number of Polymerase Chain Reaction (PCR)11 cycles has to be substantially increased to obtain LCN DNA profiles, which inevitably magnifies the risk of contamination and inaccurate results from ‘stochastic effects’, random statistical anomalies.12 Secondly, even if a DNA profile is accurately yielded, there are difficulties associated with the propositions and interpretations that can be drawn from LCN DNA results. Since LCN DNA profile can stem from the cells of a single touch by an unconnected innocent individual prior to the crime, a phenomenon commonly termed ‘adventitious transference'

http://tinyurl.com/onal93z[/url An...no longer being evidence against the mccanns.

 

[brit1981]

As far as links go I still haven't figured out how to do it on my new cheap! tablet. Fwiw ALL of my information comes directly from the source - Amarals book explains the DNA in simple layman's terms.

Also the DNA is discussed then discussed some more on every single thread- it seems like discussing the dinner plates on the Titanic while the iceberg is looming. There are links upon links.

It will remain a point of contention until there's a trial...or until science catches up.

Which is why I constantly beg to discuss newer evidence - such as the nonexistence of Tannerman and the suppression of the e-fit.

But no its always the DNA or the dogs and how wrong they are.

Amarals book does not explain the Dna correctly. It comes across as if he thinks finding fifteen out of nineteen of madeleines components in a sample of thirty seven markers from up to five people means there is a fifteen out of nineteen chance it belongs to madeleine. This is incorrect as in any sample consisting of madeleines parents and/or family all of her components will be found. In a sample consisting of only gerry mccanns DNA ten of the components will be consistent with madeleines DNA, the same for kate.

And amaral is not a good source, aside from his criminal conviction for lying to a criminal court to try to cover up the torture of the mother of a missing child, he was only on the case for a few months.

Please could you provide your evidence that tannerman did not exist. Scotland yard have identified the man tanner saw, he did exist. Here it is from scotland yard themselves. Madeleine McCann - BBC1 Crimewatch New Appeal and Full Reconstruction - Monday 14th October 2013 - YouTube

And can you provide actual evidence that the e.fits were suppressed as opposed to not released by Scotland yard. The times article that this myth started from was followed by a clarification stating that the mccanns had not suppressed the e.fits and the police in the uk and Portugal had been in possession of them for years. As the police have not stated why they chose not to release them its unfair to suggest it was down to the mccanns.
I can't link to the times as its subscription only.

 

[SapphireSteel]

So, why did the shared "checking" only occur for the McCann children?

Any ideas?

 

[brit1981]

So, why did the shared "checking" only occur for the McCann children?

Any ideas?

Can you please provide a source for this as all the witness statements I have seen said all children were checked aside from the ones whose parents used the monitors. The mccanns had the first flat which others had to pass on the way to their checks so it made sense for them to check as they passed.

Can you please provide your source for the claim tannerman did not exist.

 

[Little Jedi]

I don't understand your point with this post. Are you saying that there is evidence of decomposition on hairs in this case and it's documented in unreleased files? How could you know that if the files haven't been released?

See previous post :

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - A few questions

 

[Little Jedi]

That post (re: caylee) is irrelevant and confusing. moo

Again,

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - A few questions


It hasn't got anything to do with Caylee !!

It's a statement on forensic report relevant as to what evidence MAY have been in car indicating 'dead source'

DNA is still the same alive or dead.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

See previous post :

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - A few questions

Sorry, but that post doesn't help explain what you mean either.

 

[Little Jedi]

If you are going to say things as if they are fact you have to source it.

Links are here:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - A few questions

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - A few questions


Also :

'Following the Judge's ruling, the use of the technique was suspended in the UK, pending a review by the Crown Prosecution Service. This review was completed and the suspension lifted on the January 14, 2008.

The increased sensitivity of LCN also increases the risks posed by contamination of samples in the laboratory. Since LCN aims to amplify levels of DNA as low as 100 picograms, even breathing on a sample may contaminate it substantially enough to render the final profile unusable'

' both the suspect's and the contaminator's DNA will be amplified, resulting in a mixed profile. Moreover, the small amounts of DNA that LCN aims to amplify also increase the probability of PCR artifacts appearing on profiles such as stochastic effects.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_copy_number#Criticism

 

[brit1981]

You have a big future in PR if you're not there already, Brit.

Yes, Tannerman the individual exists.

However, Tannerman The Suspect has evaporated.

As this womans testimony basically derailed the investigation for eight yesrs, I sincerely hope she will be charged with perverting the course of justice at some point.

No word yet on the state of his skin or the length of his hair or why she identified Murat. Can't wait for that one. I suppose it will soon be "revealed" by a"close friend" that Tanner had an 8 year dose of PND and it was the meds talking poor thing.

You clearly stated tannerman did not exist that is different from saying that tannerman did exist but scotland yard eliminated him as a suspect.

Tanners testimony was correct, as scotland yard proved that a man matching her description was at the right location at the right time carrying a child matching the description she gave. She never lied so I do not understand why you think she should face criminal prosecution. It is not her fault that the original team never checked the creche records.


Could you please provide any evidence that tanner perverted the course of justice?

You stated that Tanner identified Murat as the man she saw, I have not seen anything in her statements or the Portuguese attorney generals report (which details the reasons Murat was made an aguido) that suggests she identified Murat as the man she saw.

Could you please provide your source for this claim.

Scotland yard have not said anything about his skin or hair, but the photo they released clearly showed him to have dark hair matching tanners description. This can be seen on the crime watch video I linked to above.

I do not understand your jibe that tanner might claim to have post natal depression. She has been proven by scotland yard to have spoken the truth.

 

[brit1981]

Links are here:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - A few questions

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - A few questions


Also :

'Following the Judge's ruling, the use of the technique was suspended in the UK, pending a review by the Crown Prosecution Service. This review was completed and the suspension lifted on the January 14, 2008.

The increased sensitivity of LCN also increases the risks posed by contamination of samples in the laboratory. Since LCN aims to amplify levels of DNA as low as 100 picograms, even breathing on a sample may contaminate it substantially enough to render the final profile unusable'

' both the suspect's and the contaminator's DNA will be amplified, resulting in a mixed profile. Moreover, the small amounts of DNA that LCN aims to amplify also increase the probability of PCR artifacts appearing on profiles such as stochastic effects.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_copy_number#Criticism

Once again I don't see how you are using this. It does nothing to increase the likelihood of the DNA being madeleine's. In fact as the Lowe report, which has been linked to above, states Lowe and others shared components with madeleine any risk they contaminated it increases the risk of the components they shared with madeleine appearing thus decreasing the likelihood the components did come from madeleine.

So you have a sample found in an area used by several people whose DNA components are all consistent with madeleines and then it was analysed by people who had some components consistent with madeleines. It is unsurprising components consistent with madeleines were found, it would be impossible for kate or gerry to leave DNA anyway and madeleines components not be found.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Links are here:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - A few questions

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - A few questions


Also :

'Following the Judge's ruling, the use of the technique was suspended in the UK, pending a review by the Crown Prosecution Service. This review was completed and the suspension lifted on the January 14, 2008.

The increased sensitivity of LCN also increases the risks posed by contamination of samples in the laboratory. Since LCN aims to amplify levels of DNA as low as 100 picograms, even breathing on a sample may contaminate it substantially enough to render the final profile unusable'

' both the suspect's and the contaminator's DNA will be amplified, resulting in a mixed profile. Moreover, the small amounts of DNA that LCN aims to amplify also increase the probability of PCR artifacts appearing on profiles such as stochastic effects.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_copy_number#Criticism

I think it helps if the person with the post, posts the links so we can be sure exactly what they are talking about and their source.

 

[Little Jedi]

Sorry, but that post doesn't help explain what you mean either.

What do you mean ?
Quite clearly it's responding to QUOTE in post.

 

[brit1981]

Littlejedi,

The problem is that although you are quoting problems with lcn its coming across, to me anyway, as if you think this increases the chance the DNA was from madeleine. But you do not explain your thought process to reach this conclusion ( if indeed that is what you meant).
It would not matter if other components were found due to contamination in this situation. This is because kate and Gerry's DNA contains components consistence with all of madeleines components, therefore they could never be excluded even if the sample consisted of all, and only, components consistant with madeleine mccann.

 

[Little Jedi]

I think it helps if the person with the post, posts the links so we can be sure exactly what they are talking about and their source.

The links have already been posted previously !!

Quotes from the links are given so it's clear what they are in reference to.

Numerous posts regarding FSS/DNA evidence etc. so links to explain for reference.

Quite obvious many people don't fully understand
( especially LCN (trace) DNA ).

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

The links have already been posted previously !!

Quotes from the links are given so it's clear what they are in reference to.

Numerous posts regarding FSS/DNA evidence etc. so links to explain for reference.

Quite obvious many people don't fully understand
( especially LCN (trace) DNA ).

If the mods are asking for links apparently they have not been provided adequately.
If a poster wants to proclaim something they should back it up in THAT post. That helps us all understand where they are coming from and weigh the information.

 

[brit1981]

The links have already been posted previously !!

Quotes from the links are given so it's clear what they are in reference to.

Numerous posts regarding FSS/DNA evidence etc. so links to explain for reference.

Quite obvious many people don't fully understand
( especially LCN (trace) DNA ).

Its not that people do not understand lcn, but that they don't understand your thought process in reading that lcn can have problems with amplifying contaminant DNA, to seemingly concluding that this indicates the DNA in the car may well be madeleines. If that is what you think it does not make sense.

Before we even get to the analysis we know the DNA was found in a place people with DNA containing components consistent with madeleines regularly used for several weeks.
Then reading the Lowe report we see that the DNA was analysed by people whose DNA contained some components consistent with madeleines DNA.
Then surprise surprise we find the DNA analyses contained components consistent with madeleines.
If the lcn was accurate then the DNA could have come from several people including the mccanns.
If lcn is inaccurate in this case, then we can't just stick a pin in and say it must be madeleines then as the components consistent with hers could have come either entirely or partly from fss staff. If its inaccurate then we have no idea if the fifteen markers were accurate either.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

What do you mean ?
Quite clearly it's responding to QUOTE in post.

The only thing I can figure your doing with the hair evidence is pulling it out of thin air. I'm not sure why you would do that so I'm confused to why you posted it.