A Pre Meditated Murder? or Accidental?

[Marina2]

3 things go against then "accident" theory.

1. Too coincidental - happened right when she went on her little "sabatical". It can also be said that it happened when she had total responsibility for Caylee for the first time.

2. She didn't take Caylee's doll, or any of her clothes, like she wasn't planning to have her with her. The doll was found in the abandoned car so she did take that with her. Clothes wouldn't be necessary if Caylee died shortly after they left home.

3. Showed no remorse or concern for Caylee after she went missing - this is the sign of a murder, not an accident taking place. This I can't explain!! What keeps me on the fence.

My comments in red.

 

[lostnfound85]

"It can also be said that it happened when she had total responsibility for Caylee for the first time.
"

HOw do we know this is true, this is just an assumption, didn't she take Caylee with her on vists to her boyfriends etc. on a regular basis?


"te doll was found in the abandoned car so she did take that with her. Clothes wouldn't be necessary if Caylee died shortly after they left home."

Yes, but this doesn't match up to her statements about what happenened, can be used in court.

 

[Oakley]

I'm beginning to lean that way but I still can't place my mind directly on premeditation 100%. I still somewhat tend to believe she killed her intentionally but because she snapped. An act of rage.

She created stories and excuses around Caylee's disappearance and the smell of the car. This doesn't sound to me like an accident.

If it was premeditated, I think it was hours before the crime or maybe a day at the most. This could have been a snapped decision because of the fight between Casey and Cindy, although I'd bet Casey had regrets of Caylee since she was hindering her partying and stealing Cindy's attention/affection.

That argument on the 15th seems to hold significant importance to me.

I was surprised to read in Amy's text messages that KC had commited to the PR trip sometime back in early to mid May. She sounded like she really wanted to go to PR with her "new" friends. When I read that, I wondered how she was going to leave Caylee for 7 days and with whom.

 

[bunnyphoenix1]

I think there should be another option!

The longer she didn't assist LE, the more convinced I became it was pre-meditated...I didn't change my mind because of the documents, but rather due to her own behaviour and refusal to assist LE.

 

[Mendara]

"It can also be said that it happened when she had total responsibility for Caylee for the first time.
"

HOw do we know this is true, this is just an assumption, didn't she take Caylee with her on vists to her boyfriends etc. on a regular basis?

This is true because in the Docs LEE says it was the first time Casey was away from home with Caylee for more than a day. She had never lived away from home in late June she moved in with Tony and while Tony was gone she lived with Amy, the first she was NOT living at hoem and was responsible for Caylee alone.

 

[minazoe]

she put a chloroform rag over Caylee's face , until she died...I beleive that, or she od'd the baby on Xanax. There was no violence beyond this, I beleive Casey wouldn't want it to be a hassle. Completely intentional and methodical, just like her lies...step by step.

 

[Mendara]

she put a chloroform rag over Caylee's face , until she died...I beleive that, or she od'd the baby on Xanax. There was no violence beyond this, I beleive Casey wouldn't want it to be a hassle. Completely intentional and methodical, just like her lies...step by step.

so sad but this is how I feel.

 

[Marina2]

I was thinking that even if the chloroform searches were done on her computer after Caylee went missing it doesn't necessarily mean that she didn't kill her with chloroform. It could be that she accidently killed her with chloroform (either from overdosing her in an attempt to induce sleep or a container of chloroform turned over while Caylee was in the car) and she later went on the internet to see what went wrong with the chloroform or how the fumes in the car may have killed her. For this reason, the searches could have come after Caylee was killed with the chloroform.

 

[Jolynna]

If Casey killed Caylee on June 15th, Caylee didn't last through one night of being Casey's responsibility.

I would say Casey lost her temper except why the google searches for chloroform? Google "how to get rid of dead critter odor" and the results are bleach, lime, quick lime, coffee grounds and charcoal not chloroform.

It will come out during the trial when the searches were done. I am putting my money on the searches being done BEFORE. I am not sure what kind of plot Casey had going on in her mind before June 15th or who the chloroform was originally for, but the fight brought things to a head.

Once Caylee stormed out of the house with Caylee she could either have taken Caylee to Tony's with her, taken Caylee to another friend's house, brought Caylee back to Cindy OR maybe sold her.

If she sold her, the Mama doll would have gone with Caylee and Casey's car wouldn't smell. No friend or Tony saw Caylee after June 15.

I have no reasonable doubt that Caylee is gone or that Casey did it on purpose.

 

[TisHerself]

I'm not sure it was premeditated in the sense that Casey planned it for days ahead of time, but I don't think it was an accident.

I agree, I don't think she planned the actual time of death a few days before, only because I think Casey is very compulsive, and acts out instantly.
However, I do think that the thought of killing Caylee (for whatever reason to get back at Cindy or just because Caylee was cramping her life style) had entered her mind before and she had entertained the thought.
So when she did do it, and it was probably the argument with Cindy that set her into motion, the thought had already been swirling inside her head.
So yes, I believe it was premeditated in the sense that she had already considered it as a viable option.

 

[SillyNilly]

I thought from the onset that this was premeditated murder, but I should qualify what I mean. It was premeditated in the sense that she killed Caylee out of spite after the fight with Cindy on Father's Day evening. It's not that she planned this for days or weeks, but had enough time to think about killing her (even a few minutes) and then acted on that thought.

That is premeditation. Even if you think about it for seconds, you premeditated it, there is no timeframe for premeditation, it is what it is.

 

[TisHerself]

I can't swallow accidental drowning, and here's why:

Casey's all about what she can derive from any situation.

An accidental drowning would present a golden opportunity to elicit attention, sympathy, love---all of the secondary gains she needed to fill her gaping void. She would have exploited an accidental death as fully as she could.

No. It was not an accidental drowning. Chloroform was not used as a cleaner.

We all would LIKE to think that mothers love their children and do not harm them. Sociopaths do not love. They may seem to, but they don't. They can't.

This is very hard even for family of sociopaths to wrap their minds around--we have a "normal" capacity for human emotion, and find it very difficult to understand that the parent (or sibling, or..) we love is really simply a shell and a mask du jour. There is nothing else there for others. Nothing genuine, at least.

Exactly!:thumb: I've said this before people are looking to explain why Casey did what she did and trying to put their normal thinking into her actions. It cannot be done when relating to a sociopath, you cannot think like them.
This little girl Caylee did not drown accidentally, her sociopathic mother killed her.

 

[SummerRaye]

I think that Lee's statement made it pretty clear to me that it was pre-meditated. I mean, I thought that before but his little details about the strained relationship between Casey and Cindy really, really helped solidify my thoughts on it.

 

[disappear]

I am not sure if this has been mentioned before, but how about a premeditated "accident"? Perhaps the ladder was left in the pool with high hopes that Caylee would find her way into it? Perhaps she "forgot" about little Caylee in the car? Maybe when her plan went the way she had hoped that it would, she had second thoughts. Maybe she thought that she would still be caught for setting it up and decided to do away with the evidence and act like she had no clue where Caylee was? Just a thought. Let me know what you think.

 

[tiredofthis]

I am not sure if this has been mentioned before, but how about a premeditated "accident"? Perhaps the ladder was left in the pool with high hopes that Caylee would find her way into it? Perhaps she "forgot" about little Caylee in the car? Maybe when her plan went the way she had hoped that it would, she had second thoughts. Maybe she thought that she would still be caught for setting it up and decided to do away with the evidence and act like she had no clue where Caylee was? Just a thought. Let me know what you think.

Maybe, but wouldn't that still be murder?

I wouldn't put anything past her at this point.

 

[disappear]

tiredofthis....
Absolutely (hahaha). I think that it would be murder through and through!

 

[impatientredhead]

she put a chloroform rag over Caylee's face , until she died...I beleive that, or she od'd the baby on Xanax. There was no violence beyond this, I beleive Casey wouldn't want it to be a hassle. Completely intentional and methodical, just like her lies...step by step.

I agree that it was completely intentional. After the new documents my theory has not changed (copied from earlier post below). I may have changed my opinion about how long the body was in the trunk based on the multiple statements about the smell and especially with Casey telling people it smelled before anyone else knew.


My theory is very similar to some of those posted with a slight difference:

Casey planned to kill Caylee and make it look an accident but her plan didn't work.
There are the fights that we know about June 9th thru the 15th.
Casey wanted to punish Cindy by taking Caylee away from her.
Cindy has a huge fear of Caylee drowning in the pool, she talks about it constantly.
Cindy has said she had Caylee in the pool on the 15th, I think Casey's intent was to make Cindy think she/Cindy forgot to put the ladder away and Caylee drowned.
The chloroform was so that Caylee wouldn't not fight (maybe suffer if you think she has any empathetic ability, I tend to think it made it easier on Casey).

BUT- the chloroform didn't just knock her out, it killed her. Now the drowning set up doesn't work. The coroner will know she was dead when she hit the water. Caylee dead in the backyard by the pool and then hid in the playhouse explains the cadaver dogs.

This is where all the WTF was she thinking with this pathetic story she has pieced together since then. Her behavior makes sense, she planned to kill her, it wasn't an accident. The ridiculous nanny story doesn't seem like it had any forethought because it didn't. It was made up on the 17th when she got ZGs name and then went on with her life trying to put of the confrontation with Cindy as long as possible.

 

[janemundane]

I believe I'm thinking along the same lines as "disappear". I think KC was probably chloroforming poor little Caylee on a regular basis, leaving her in the car trunk so she could do whatever (or whomever) she pleased. But then, after the big argument and whatever other "drammma" hit her proverbial fan, she went into "spiteful b" mode and purposely either fatally drugged poor Caylee and/or left her in the trunk long enough to make sure she would be dead. Wow. It actually hurts my heart to type these words. :furious:

 

[icherish]

I'm sure I'm in the minority but that remark by Casey didn't effect my judgement of this case in any way. I've read that it is the deciding point for many on this forum. IMO, Casey said that in sarcasm. It sounds like something Cindy would say to Casey in anger or in anger over what had transpired in the month Caylee was being "kept from her". Casey had been discussing with Lee Cindy's opinion of her. It seemed to me like she may have been saying something like "Well, like Mom said, I'm a spiteful b***h." but she left out everything but the last part. However she meant it, it did not come across well in the transcripts.

ETA: I'm still on the fence on whether it was an accident or murder.

I don't know whether the "spiteful" remark was said in sarcasm. Lee didn't say whether it was or not during his interview. But even if it was sarcastic... or whatever it was... she knew what really happened to Caylee, she knew her family was agonizing over it and she was toying with them with that remark. It was a mean, rotten thing to say under the circumstances and makes me think she meant it, at least in some respect.

 

[HopeAgainstHope]

It had to be premeditated. I think it's possible that the exact moment when she did it was not, but she'd thought about it for a while. Almost exactly like Scott Peterson. The similarities between the cases are eerie. Wonder if Casey will dye her hair blonde and try to head to Mexico?