A Pre Meditated Murder? or Accidental?

[Jolynna]

Because she could not get caught with a smothered baby.... a drowned baby.. why not call 911? Drugging.. very risky... live baby in the trunk.... very risky. Cholorform only works for a little bit. If she tape her mouth prior to drugging.. then she would be careful that it would be able to come off after Caylee woke up. Have you ever seen a baby kick and scream? Even with tape, Caylee could have made muffled sounds and a ruckus with her feet by kicking the trunk lid.

Casey spent her days spinning lies. Building some upon others that she started months before.

As OSCO documentation shows, she had already had a "fake nanny".
for the past 2 years. If she did not already have a lie about the nanny or the sitter.. then she could not have "blamed it on the nanny." She also already had the lie in place about "working."

Once she was done smothering the baby, and realized what she had done... She would simply blame it on the nanny kidnapping her. She purposely does not place the tape on Caylee's mouth carefully. After all, that is what a kidnapper would do. Right? However, she put the sticker on the mouth because it was "mommy's kiss." She had to be at Tony's soon. She knew she had to continue to act "normal" and carry on. If not, nobody would believe her "nanny kidnapping" story. Even in this scenario, she could have just stuck Caylee in the trunk -dead and taped her mouth and bagged the baby on the 17th and/or 18th. Of course, after getting ideas from her movie watching.


If she had a smothered baby at home, then she had to keep it from EVERYONE. Because then it would blow her lie about working and having a nanny. This also covers the no shoes and the doll in the car. If she drugged caylee and put her in the car.. why not put the doll in there with her?

Drugging a baby and putting her in the trunk is risky business. She would not have been so carefree with Tone and BB or the apt watching KIDNAPPING MOVIES. Tone not once in his interviews, after the police found chloroform was he asked if she went to her car that night during the movie, after the movie, etc.. She was carefree because.. everyone lives - everyone dies. Caylee was gone and she could do nothing about it. Her "Nanny did it" alibi was already in place in her mind. Might as well enjoy herself. Besides if her mother would have only watched her and not kicked them out... Caylee would not be dead. She actual feels a sense of freedom now both from Caylee and her mother.

Evidence shows she ramped up the "Caylee is with the nanny" story after June 16th with her mother, Amy, Jesse, Ryan, Tone... she could have easily kept telling Amy, Jesse, Tone and friends that Caylee was with her mom and her mom put her in a DAYCARE. She ramped up the story because if she did it caught.. her nanny kidnapping story was in place.

If living with Cindy and George was so horrific (with all the divorce fighting) that Casey had to leave and stay with Tony, what kind of mother would she be if she left poor Caylee there?

Tony's roommates said that Casey told them Caylee was staying with Zanny because it was better for Caylee than the fighting. I think Casey DID try to convince Tony to let Caylee spend the night by saying how awful the Anthony house was for Caylee. It didn't work.

It isn't Tony's fault, but I believe if he had told Caylee could spend the night, I think Caylee would be alive.

BUT, Casey couldn't tell Tony she had abandoned Caylee and left her in an awful environment with awful people. Tony might not think Casey would be a good mother for his "sons". To Casey it sounded better to say she'd left Caylee with Zanny and trips to theme parks and playmates.

Casey had been using the *Zanny nanny* story for OVER A YEAR. She probably thought it was a good story since it had been working so well.

JMO

 

[Rumpole]

I enjoy reading your posts!

If the defense goes for a rage smothering scenario I think they'll have an uphill battle. The prosecution could then bring in a doll, put a pillow over the doll with duct tape over the face, and visually show the jury just how long it takes to smother someone. Minutes of silence in the courtroom during this display coupled with pictures of Caylee's duct taped skull and Casey will live the rest of her life in prison. JMHO.

Throw in the video store footage of her and Tony and all the partying pictures after Caylee's death. The shopping spree at Target. The stolen money. There's no getting around those. If she killed her by accident, no one on this planet would act like she did. She didn't have a care in the world.

I am not saying the manslaughter plea will work and I certainly hope it does not!

No Matter what they try, KC must FRY!!

And I personally am not proposing smothering as cause of death. However there is going to be some sort of defence and a plea and argument in regards to manslaughter is something to contemplate.

 

[TakeNote]

I agree, so the "3 days" or the precise figure available is likely to be true. In my view it goes a long way to fixing the fact that the body was in the trunk untill 19th or 20th before being dumped or at least rebagged well enough to stop leakage.

This is getting OT of accident vs premeditated, but messing about with a body in ones car for 3 days is circumstantial evidence which speaks against the death being an accident.

Hercule Poirot

I too have always enjoyed reading your post :blowkiss: and look forward to many more!......its important to give each other things to ponder on......:crazy:

when I was talking about the body, trunk and heat....I was trying to stay on topic....I was just suggesting that perhaps the body was not in trunk for the 2.6 or 3. days........because if you think about it and she did carry the body in the trunk for that amount of time....if it could be proven for fact....then I could see how the defense could use that towards accident theory because you would think one would have a better plan.....and i would have to agree with you

I was trying to punch wholes in your theory......:gavel:

 

[Rumpole]

Hercule Poirot

I too have always enjoyed reading your post :blowkiss: and look forward to many more!......its important to give each other things to ponder on......:crazy:

when I was talking about the body, trunk and heat....I was trying to stay on topic....I was just suggesting that perhaps the body was not in trunk for the 2.6 or 3. days........because if you think about it and she did carry the body in the trunk for that amount of time....if it could be proven for fact....then I could see how the defense could use that towards accident theory because you would think one would have a better plan.....and i would have to agree with you

I was trying to punch wholes in your theory......:gavel:

I appreciate discussion.
Love having holes punched in my theories.

The "scientific" way is to propose a theory that CAN be tested as facts are discovered and raised as issues. As opposed to just FAITH and a subjective position about what you think or feel to be right!

Best left to the grand Poobah of baseless supposition - NG!!

I am always mindful though of the thread topic of whether the facts CAN tell us whether Caylee's death was as a result of an accident or deliberate act by KC.

 

[ibyoungr]

I enjoy reading your posts!

If the defense goes for a rage smothering scenario I think they'll have an uphill battle. The prosecution could then bring in a doll, put a pillow over the doll with duct tape over the face, and visually show the jury just how long it takes to smother someone. Minutes of silence in the courtroom during this display coupled with pictures of Caylee's duct taped skull and Casey will live the rest of her life in prison. JMHO.

Throw in the video store footage of her and Tony and all the partying pictures after Caylee's death. The shopping spree at Target. The stolen money. There's no getting around those. If she killed her by accident, no one on this planet would act like she did. She didn't have a care in the world.

bolded above by me....
Also include the rage filled video of August 14th to show her short fuse. Easier also for the prosecution to produce pillow as a murder weapon than a bottle of cholorform.

 

[Jolynna]

If that is the scenario the defence uses and proves, I can see plenty of room to argue "manslaughter". A rage could well last minutes and argued that "shutting the child up" was the driving emotion, and not "I want this child dead". My vast legal knowledge based on 40 years of watching TV dramas, leads me to see this as an absolutely classic situation for a manslaughter plea. And I am sure it would work a treat for Perry Mason, or Horrace Rumpole, and no bother at all for Denny Crane! Judge Judy could handle that one?

If Casey smothered Caylee with a pillow she would have had plenty of time to change her mind and course of action when the pillow was on Caylee's face.

If Casey gagged Caylee and threw her in the trunk, she had plenty of time to rethink the action while driving to Tony's apartment.

Caylee was alive when Casey called Tony and most likely tried to convince him to let Caylee come over. She was alive at 1 p.m. when George saw her and was told Caylee wasn't coming home that night.

IF Amy or Jesse say Casey made arrangements to drop Caylee off, I would consider an accident theory.

But, as things stand, it looks like Casey was done with living with the Anthony's. She didn't have a babysitter and wouldn't ever let her mother win by giving her Caylee.

Casey's serious premeditation may have only happened because Jesse and Amy didn't volunteer to watch Caylee and Tony wouldn't let Caylee sleep over (despite the sob story).

Smothering, stuffing Caylee alive to die in a trunk or deliberate lethal overdosing aren't manslaughter. i am convinced that however Caylee died, Casey did some planning to make it happen.

IMO

 

[sua_sponte]

I don't believe the kidnapping story was planned out way ahead of time. I don't believe it was even invented in detail for the famous 31 days. I think it was just a slap in the dark, and as she told it, she created it. She's a good liar, and has no trouble keeping her lies going.

I would agree except for the ZFG actually being at sawgrass on June 17th. This is too much of a coincidence to just be a coincidence. There had to be some level of early planning there.

 

[PGWodehouse]

I am not saying the manslaughter plea will work and I certainly hope it does not!

No Matter what they try, KC must FRY!!

And I personally am not proposing smothering as cause of death. However there is going to be some sort of defence and a plea and argument in regards to manslaughter is something to contemplate.

One thing to remember, however, is that if they tried the "smothering in a fit of rage" = manslaughter, it probably wouldn't fly here in FL. I can't see any way in which smothering would not falling under the aggravated child abuse statutes. Assuming that's correct, KC's defense would be essentially arguing for felony murder (under FL law, 1st degree murder.) I don't think even Baez is that stupid. (Though I may have to eat those words.)

Personally, I really believe that Baez should be trying his damndest to get a plea agreement with the State. We're broke, and that would save the State umpteen dollars, something I see as a good bargaining chip, and which, as a taxpayer, I would appreciate. However, as a loather of KC, I want to see LWOP. Problem with a plea agreement is, I can't see KC ever admitting to ANY guilt about ANYTHING.

 

[ibyoungr]

I would agree except for the ZFG actually being at sawgrass on June 17th. This is too much of a coincidence to just be a coincidence. There had to be some level of early planning there.

This is totally dependant on what time of day ZG was at Sawgrass. If ZG looked at apts in the afternoon.. then I highly doubt Casey got the name while scoping out Sawgrass - if she scoped out SG. She was already familar with the complex.
Also keep in mind, that Harry Garcia filled out the visitation card, not ZG. My theory is Casey did not sit around "Sawgrass" on the 17th with the luck of seeing or hearing the name Zenaida.


She did not use the name Zenaida until she talked to the police or her parents. Up until that point, she used Zani/Zanny, nanny or sitter. Per AH, RP, Cindy, SP, Iassen, and TL interviews everyone says she used the name Zani or just nanny. There are 3 other places she could have heard the name Zenaida. From Kiomarie(her aunt's name), customer at tat shop is relative of ZG and the name from former neighbor just down the street near the location of the remains. Also it is a popular hispanic name and most sound like Zani.

RG said she used the name Zenaida but he did not come forth with that info until Sept. (which makes me wonder if he was interchanging Zani with Zenaida using Zenaida since it had come out in the investigation)

So.. Caylee dies on the 16th, lets say she forms the "babysitter did it" but nothing more than that. She watches movies with Tony. Goes to bed, wakes up, turns on her cell around 11:49, takes a shower, eats, leaves Tonys to go to parents.

11:49 - Ping record at TL showering,eating, making a plan for 2 1/2 hours until:
2:18 - Ping record shows she is leaving TL "indicates movement to the south" where it pinged at her parents area until
2:45 - Ping record shows it pinged briefly to the west of the home at Lee Vista Blvd and TPC Drive..
4:36 - Moving NE at 4:36 PM Remained in area of Alfalfa Trail, Research Dr and E Colonial Dr (Chris Stutz' reportedly visited her - had Tony's jeep??)
5:20 Cell activity moved west to TL apt and stayed there until 0031 hours on June 18th.

Where during this time frame did she have to go sit at Sawgrass? AM and HG stated to police that Casey was not familar looking to them. However, ONLY HG pointed out that ZG looked familar to him.



Source: http://cfnews13.com/uploadedFiles/Stories/Local/DONE mbi-letters-murphy-monforte.pdf

 

[ibyoungr]

If Casey smothered Caylee with a pillow she would have had plenty of time to change her mind and course of action when the pillow was on Caylee's face.

If Casey gagged Caylee and threw her in the trunk, she had plenty of time to rethink the action while driving to Tony's apartment.

Caylee was alive when Casey called Tony and most likely tried to convince him to let Caylee come over. She was alive at 1 p.m. when George saw her and was told Caylee wasn't coming home that night.

IF Amy or Jesse say Casey made arrangements to drop Caylee off, I would consider an accident theory.

But, as things stand, it looks like Casey was done with living with the Anthony's. She didn't have a babysitter and wouldn't ever let her mother win by giving her Caylee.

Casey's serious premeditation may have only happened because Jesse and Amy didn't volunteer to watch Caylee and Tony wouldn't let Caylee sleep over (despite the sob story).

Smothering, stuffing Caylee alive to die in a trunk or deliberate lethal overdosing aren't manslaughter. i am convinced that however Caylee died, Casey did some planning to make it happen.

IMO

I am convinced Casey did not want the Caylee from the very beginning. It was always in her mind that Caylee was a burden.
The thought of caring for that burden for another 16 years... not something she wanted to do. But as SP stated "She hated her mother more than she loved that child."

If she did not smother her in a rage.. the other scenario in my mind is she taped her mouth while she was asleep and put the pillow on her face till Caylee's last breath. Quick and easy.

 

[panthera]

I am convinced Casey did not want the Caylee from the very beginning. It was always in her mind that Caylee was a burden.
The thought of caring for that burden for another 16 years... not something she wanted to do. But as SP stated "She hated her mother more than she loved that child."

If she did not smother her in a rage.. the other scenario in my mind is she taped her mouth while she was asleep and put the pillow on her face till Caylee's last breath. Quick and easy.

I believe this is what happened. And it was something she had planned, but decided to do the night of the 15th/16th when she couldn't be with TL.

 

[Jolynna]

I'd like to know what AH and Casey talked about for 36 minutes on June 16.

If Casey asked her to babysit it would mean Caylee was alive and that Casey was trying to make arrangements for her care.

It would mean that up until the time of the phone call, Casey hadn't decided, for sure, to harm Caylee.

IMO

 

[panthera]

I'd like to know what AH and Casey talked about for 36 minutes on June 16.

If Casey asked her to babysit it would mean Caylee was alive and that Casey was trying to make arrangements for her care.

It would mean that up until the time of the phone call, Casey hadn't decided, for sure, to harm Caylee.

IMO

That could change a lot of things. I'm still hopeful we'll hear, before the trial, what the content of the texting/calls between Casey and TL were the night of the 15th ~ since I believe that had a lot to do with the timing of Caylee's death. MOO

 

[Rumpole]

That could change a lot of things. I'm still hopeful we'll hear, before the trial, what the content of the texting/calls between Casey and TL were the night of the 15th ~ since I believe that had a lot to do with the timing of Caylee's death. MOO

Certainly the 15/16th communications important. I think AL testimony about KC on the 16th could be critical too. I'd like to hear description of KC's state that night. Did she "pop out" to her car?

 

[Tom'sGirl]

Mods,

Every post have HP's gets deleted. I have responded or put a post on this thread then it disappears. HP made the last post a couple of days ago. I also thought I seen some other posts after that besides mine and now they are gone.

I'm not understanding what you mean??????

 

[Schmerty_Jones]

Mods,

Every post have HP's gets deleted. I have responded or put a post on this thread then it disappears. HP made the last post a couple of days ago. I also thought I seen some other posts after that besides mine and now they are gone.

What???:waitasec::waitasec:

 

[JBean]

Mods,

Every post have HP's gets deleted. I have responded or put a post on this thread then it disappears. HP made the last post a couple of days ago. I also thought I seen some other posts after that besides mine and now they are gone.

HP is deleting his own posts, but many were quadruplicates of other posts.

 

[ibyoungr]

It's all good.. Forgot what I was going to post... Oh yeah, a website that is linked here at WS, I believe has a timeline and in that timeline it has information that TonyL posted on SM forum. I wonder if he said anything about that night.

You would think his interviews would have more information about her that night.
I do think Tony's testimony about Casey's behavior that night will play a BIG part in the pre-meditated murder theory.

 

[jon_burrows]

I'd like to know what AH and Casey talked about for 36 minutes on June 16.

If Casey asked her to babysit it would mean Caylee was alive and that Casey was trying to make arrangements for her care.

It would mean that up until the time of the phone call, Casey hadn't decided, for sure, to harm Caylee.

IMO

Unless...Caylee was already deceased but Casey wanted to make it look like she was still alive. The same way she kept stringing CA/GA along for a month but never letting them see Caylee. If AH agreed to babysit, Casey would have had no problem lying and saying 'oh, the nanny decided to watch her' or 'Cindy decided to watch her'.

 

[Rumpole]

It's all good.. Forgot what I was going to post... Oh yeah, a website that is linked here at WS, I believe has a timeline and in that timeline it has information that TonyL posted on SM forum. I wonder if he said anything about that night.

You would think his interviews would have more information about her that night.
I do think Tony's testimony about Casey's behavior that night will play a BIG part in the pre-meditated murder theory.

I think Tony's testimony in regards to 16th evening will be crucial, but do not think it will necessarily confirm or deny accident vs premeditated murder?