A pregnant man ?

[cityslick]

Yep, I agree. Unless this woman had a total transsexual operation to alter all her female organs, top and bottom, breasts, uterus, etc., then she is still biologically a woman.

I don't even think this deserves any media attention at all.

Agree. In my world, a female is no longer a female if she (he?) no longer has all the equipment that defines one as a female. Everything else is window dressing.

 

[Nova]

Now wait a minute! I agree that the "world's first pregnant man" publicity was nonsense; I thought so when I first saw it at the drug store checkout counter.

But who are we to decide how much surgery a person must have before we recognize that he or she has changed sex? Who are we to demand that someone undergo OUR list of surgeries before he or she is accorded basic respect?

What is clear to science is that sex, like sexual orientation, is more a spectrum than two polarities.

How about we just let everyone decide whether he or she is male or female? Why is that so difficult?

 

[Kimberlyd125]

Now wait a minute! I agree that the "world's first pregnant man" publicity was nonsense; I thought so when I first saw it at the drug store checkout counter.

But who are we to decide how much surgery a person must have before we recognize that he or she has changed sex? Who are we to demand that someone undergo OUR list of surgeries before he or she is accorded basic respect?

What is clear to science is that sex, like sexual orientation, is more a spectrum than two polarities.

How about we just let everyone decide whether he or she is male or female? Why is that so difficult?

I don't think anybody has told her what surgeries she needs to be called a man.

I think people are just giving their opinions on the matter.

Isn't that we do here?

IMO opinion, born a woman, die a woman.

But that's JUST MY OPINION from what I BELIEVE to be factual and correct.

 

[gitana1]

I don't think anybody has told her what surgeries she needs to be called a man.

I think people are just giving their opinions on the matter.

Isn't that we do here?

IMO opinion, born a woman, die a woman.

But that's JUST MY OPINION from what I BELIEVE to be factual and correct.

What about people that are born with both sex organs? Do they get to choose? Is it possible for them to change sex from what they were born (intersex) to another sex (one sex)? I have asked you this before in other threads on the subject and your answer has been simply that this is not what's happening here. But I think that evades the issue. So hopefully you will answer.

Also, what about people who have all the sex organs and appearance of one gender but whose chromosomes are of the other gender?

 

[Kimberlyd125]

What about people that are born with both sex organs? Do they get to choose? Is it possible for them to change sex from what they were born (intersex) to another sex (one sex)? I have asked you this before in other threads on the subject and your answer has been simply that this is not what's happening here. But I think that evades the issue. So hopefully you will answer.

Also, what about people who have all the sex organs and appearance of one gender but whose chromosomes are of the other gender?

1st of all, I don't ever recall that answer or evading the issue. Are you sure it was me? I admit I don't remember every post I write here at WS but I certainly don't remember that.
Perhaps you have a link?

IMO when someone is born with both sex organs, something obviously has to be done. And I think a Dr's input is considered and testing is done to try to fix the deformation appropriately.

IMO in that instance, there is a physical malformation (a birth defect).
Not simply a wish or want to change.

I simply do not know enough about chromosomes to discuss your second question.

I do know what I believe to be right and wrong. I also know you don't have to agree with me. We both have a right to our opinions.

If this sounds evasive to you, I apologize. It is what it is.

 

[Charlie09]

What about people that are born with both sex organs? Do they get to choose? Is it possible for them to change sex from what they were born (intersex) to another sex (one sex)? I have asked you this before in other threads on the subject and your answer has been simply that this is not what's happening here. But I think that evades the issue. So hopefully you will answer.

Also, what about people who have all the sex organs and appearance of one gender but whose chromosomes are of the other gender?

If it's not what is happening in this case, then really the question is a distraction. Not being willing to discuss hypotheticals, isn't evading, it's normally following TOS.

 

[Nova]

I don't think anybody has told her what surgeries she needs to be called a man.

I think people are just giving their opinions on the matter.

Isn't that we do here?

IMO opinion, born a woman, die a woman.

But that's JUST MY OPINION from what I BELIEVE to be factual and correct.

Yes, in fact, several posters decreed that a transgender can only be considered to have transitioned if s/he has ALL the necessary surgeries. So posters WERE in essence taking it upon themselves to decide what defines a male or female.

Of course, you are entitled to your opinion. Personally, I am cautious about forming opinions on subjects about which I have no way of becoming an expert. I really don't see the harm in allowing people to define their own sex and sexual orientation.

Why must they conform to your (rather narrow) definition?

"Born a woman, die a woman" begs the question: is sex primarily determined by external genitalia, internal hormones, chromosomes or psychology? Those most affected seem to say that the psychology predominates.

I see no reason why you or I wouldn't take them at their word. Because again, where's the harm?

 

[Charlie09]

Yes, in fact, several posters decreed that a transgender can only be considered to have transitioned if s/he has ALL the necessary surgeries. So posters WERE in essence taking it upon themselves to decide what defines a male or female.

Of course, you are entitled to your opinion. Personally, I am cautious about forming opinions on subjects about which I have no way of becoming an expert. I really don't see the harm in allowing people to define their own sex and sexual orientation.

Why must they conform to your (rather narrow) definition?

"Born a woman, die a woman" begs the question: is sex primarily determined by external genitalia, internal hormones, chromosomes or psychology? Those most affected seem to say that the psychology predominates.

I see no reason why you or I wouldn't take them at their word. Because again, where's the harm?

Yet...you yourself will draw boundaries that are societal norms in the US and not other places.

Everyone conforms to definitions on some level, narrow or not.

 

[Montjoy]

This discussion is a bit of a mess because it seems that almost no post here recognizes that 'sex' and 'gender' refer to two different (albeit related) things. If you (not pointing at anyone in particular here) think that they mean the same thing, I would encourage you to read up on the differences before posting.

 

[Tugela]

Actually, most transgenders would agree with your literal words if not with the spirit of your remark.

They will tell you they are merely modifying their bodies to match the psychological gender they already are. And then they will generally change their legal gender, a change which is and should be recognized by the courts.

Let's don't pretend this one couple is typical.

Your mental concept of who you are doesnt change biology. In this case this person is obviously a woman and will allways be one. She may choose to live like a man, and that is fine, but biology can't be changed by a couple of superficial cosmetic procedures or how people think of themselves. It is what it is.

Like the cat guy. He might have felt like a cat, wanted to be a cat, but no matter what he did he allways remained a human.

 

[Tugela]

I guess a penis was constructed? If babies were born afterwards then I'd say a biological woman with a penis gave birth. Not totally bodily transformed into male yet since men don't have a uterus or ovaries. If he was legally a man though, and allowed to legally marry then why no divorce. I just hope all the hormones going back and forth while still having estrogen from ovaries won't be a health issue someday. Sorry to get so personal, but was the monthly cycle suppressed and how will the bleeding after birth escape the body? Women have bleeding even after c sections.

Women do have a vestigal penis, its called a clitoris.

 

[Tugela]

Yes, in fact, several posters decreed that a transgender can only be considered to have transitioned if s/he has ALL the necessary surgeries. So posters WERE in essence taking it upon themselves to decide what defines a male or female.

Of course, you are entitled to your opinion. Personally, I am cautious about forming opinions on subjects about which I have no way of becoming an expert. I really don't see the harm in allowing people to define their own sex and sexual orientation.

Why must they conform to your (rather narrow) definition?

"Born a woman, die a woman" begs the question: is sex primarily determined by external genitalia, internal hormones, chromosomes or psychology? Those most affected seem to say that the psychology predominates.

I see no reason why you or I wouldn't take them at their word. Because again, where's the harm?

Psychology is not biology.

You can't choose to change what you were born biologically as, not your sex, not you race, not your species. Just because you feel like something else or identify with something else, it doesn't change what you are.

 

[T4Tide]

I've been confused since the beginning. What I want to know is personal... I guess. How did the pregnancy occur? Because, IMHO, if one person has the party room, and the other person has the pinata stick, and they got together and the candy came out.... that's just regular ole pregnancy just like my four, except I prefer to dress and act female and my hubby... well, the only thing feminine about him is that he uses a pouf in the shower (but with man soap.... argh!) and likes Mary Kay's night cream for his face.

I mean, really.... I know lots of couples where the woman isn't so girly girl and the man isn't so manly man, you know? What's so odd about that and why shouldn't they be allowed to marry/divorce/etc? This story is like a fancy cupcake with lots of icing. It looks all interesting, but really the icing tastes like crap and the actually cupcake is the same as all the others. meh...

(I really don't know... did they have sex or did they get pregnant some other way?)

 

[Sonya610]

(I really don't know... did they have sex or did they get pregnant some other way?)

Well if the girlfriends/wives whatever are really female they surely didn't get her/it pregnant. I am guessing turkey baster via some male friend? I doubt if a clinic in the US would let her use a sperm bank (even Octomom had the father supply the sperm to the doctor, she didn't just go apply for anon sperm).

Kind of surprising the father/s of these kids haven't been dragged into the picture. Legally if they didn't do this anonymously through a sperm bank the fathers can typically be held liable for child support.

 

[MissJ]

People should be able to marry and certainly divorce whoever they want.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

Yes, in fact, several posters decreed that a transgender can only be considered to have transitioned if s/he has ALL the necessary surgeries. So posters WERE in essence taking it upon themselves to decide what defines a male or female.

Of course, you are entitled to your opinion. Personally, I am cautious about forming opinions on subjects about which I have no way of becoming an expert. I really don't see the harm in allowing people to define their own sex and sexual orientation.

Why must they conform to your (rather narrow) definition?

"Born a woman, die a woman" begs the question: is sex primarily determined by external genitalia, internal hormones, chromosomes or psychology? Those most affected seem to say that the psychology predominates.

I see no reason why you or I wouldn't take them at their word. Because again, where's the harm?

You, my friend, form opinions on a lot of things you have no way of becoming an expert on. We all do.

If we didn't, WS would be pretty blank. Wouldn't it? Are we all supposed to be experts on every topic/thread before commenting?

But, I do know what I believe. Just as you do.

The thing about my opinions is they are mine. You don't have to agree with them.

 

[cityslick]

Now wait a minute! I agree that the "world's first pregnant man" publicity was nonsense; I thought so when I first saw it at the drug store checkout counter.

But who are we to decide how much surgery a person must have before we recognize that he or she has changed sex? Who are we to demand that someone undergo OUR list of surgeries before he or she is accorded basic respect?

What is clear to science is that sex, like sexual orientation, is more a spectrum than two polarities.

How about we just let everyone decide whether he or she is male or female? Why is that so difficult?

Truthfully?

Because it's my opinion to decide how I view that person. The above posters are correct, psychology and biology are two different things. You may in your mind believe you are now a man but your body says otherwise if you still have a woman's reproductive organs. If for example a man want to be a woman, that's fine. But the truth comes out when that person takes a shower or even goes to the doctor.

 

[mysteriew]

Well if the girlfriends/wives whatever are really female they surely didn't get her/it pregnant. I am guessing turkey baster via some male friend? I doubt if a clinic in the US would let her use a sperm bank (even Octomom had the father supply the sperm to the doctor, she didn't just go apply for anon sperm).

Kind of surprising the father/s of these kids haven't been dragged into the picture. Legally if they didn't do this anonymously through a sperm bank the fathers can typically be held liable for child support.

BBM In the bolded part you have hit on the legal issues that could foul this up.

Okay he/she had the child. We'll say parent 1.

Parent 1 was claiming to be married to someone at the time of the birth. If married they legally are a parent to the child. We will call them parent 2.

Since two women cannot biologically concieve a child there must be a male donor of some type. Legally that makes him parent 3.

Now this is without consideration of whether any adoption took place or whether any surrender papers were signed by parent 3. But potentially all three could be determined parents. All three could demand a right to parent the child. Make decisions, spend time with and so forth. It can be extremely difficult for two parents to cooperate. So what happens when there are three?

Another legal issue. The way I understand it that state does not allow same sex marriage. But if he/she had gender surgery that changed his gender and became male then the marriage became legal. They could then be eligible for that legal ritual known as divorce.

However the 'man' had a baby which is traditionally a female role. Obviously in this situation there had to be a donor of some type. Females have babies which makes this a same sex relationship which leads to the marriage wasn't legal in this state. If the marriage wasn't legal and the second parent isn't biologically related to the child...... she therefore has no rights to the child. She is not a parent. And legally there is no need for the ritual known as divorce. As a matter of fact if he allows a divorce, then he is actually legitimizing a marriage that isn't legal in that state.

I can see why the judge is having problems with the case.

 

[TrackerSam]

What about people that are born with both sex organs? Do they get to choose? Is it possible for them to change sex from what they were born (intersex) to another sex (one sex)? I have asked you this before in other threads on the subject and your answer has been simply that this is not what's happening here. But I think that evades the issue. So hopefully you will answer.

Also, what about people who have all the sex organs and appearance of one gender but whose chromosomes are of the other gender?

That's not changing sex, it's eliminating one set of sexual organs.

 

[TrackerSam]

Yes, in fact, several posters decreed that a transgender can only be considered to have transitioned if s/he has ALL the necessary surgeries. So posters WERE in essence taking it upon themselves to decide what defines a male or female.

Those opinions were based on what the judge in Arizona has to decide, which is pertinent to the story - legal divorce.
Beyond that, men don't have ovaries. It follows that a person with ovaries, birth canal, etc. is not a man. There's already a definition of male.


male (māl)
1. the sex that produces spermatozoa
2. A man or boy.
Of, relating to, or designating the sex that has organs to produce spermatozoa for fertilizing ova.
n.
1. A member of the sex that begets young by fertilizing ova.


http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/male

Before anyone goes off on sterile men, the spermatoza is there and either of insufficient number or deformed. Young boys don't produce but they will and are considered male. It seems like an incomplete definition but I didn't write it and evryone's free to look up their own.
Men don't give birth, I'm quite sure of that and some here think I'm confused? :what: :floorlaugh: