A rush to judgement?

[KOOL LOOK]

Actually we don't know any of this. We know it's a botched police investigation with alot of leaks to the press.
While the mob mentality is focusing only on the McCann's the real truth is slipping away.

I don't see how this statement isn't anything but a rush to judgement. How can you say the police investigation is botched? Becuase someone leaked some information that doesn't mean it's botched. We don't even know if it's true leaks, no sources have been named or charged, just innuendo. The leaks could also be from the other side. We don't know.

Giving the public information isn't botching anything, it's what's done in most cases to a degree in order to get help from the public. If any, the police should be more forth coming in this investigation, we've seen many cases solved due to this very thing.

Police investigations, forensics have come so far in what they were that many years ago in the Chamberlain case. Cameras, dna, the dogs, they don't lie and warp or slant facts and evidence. They tell the story. There is also witnesses to the comings and goings leading up to and after the events of this case that can be documented. For example, just how many bottles of wine was consumed that fateful night. There will be receipts for what they drank, ate, what time the food and beverages were charged on their credit cards, rooms bills.

The police have done what they felt was right from the beginning. I'ts easy to sit back and say what they should have done. Hindsight is always better and more informed after the fact. The only one that had the upper hand at the onset of this investigation was the perp, blaming the police is a horrible trend in this world that's become acceptable due to defence lawyers trying to get guilty clients off.

There's always exceptions to where police have went after the wrong person, but those cases have been brought to the attention of the public, re-investigated and many many falsely prosecuted people have been set free.
Police only have so much they can do to help fight and solve crime. Finally the Chamberlain case was completely solved and righted for the innocent. Thank goodness this isn't the norm. We learn from mistakes like these. We also learn over time the actual involvement the very ones that should love children are more likely the perps than strangers, which is something you wouldn't have convinced the public of 30 years ago either. Especially the mother.

The criminals are the bad people, not police.

 

[csds703]

I don't see how this statement isn't anything but a rush to judgement. How can you say the police investigation is botched? Becuase someone leaked some information that doesn't mean it's botched. We don't even know if it's true leaks, no sources have been named or charged, just innuendo. The leaks could also be from the other side. We don't know.

Giving the public information isn't botching anything, it's what's done in most cases to a degree in order to get help from the public. If any, the police should be more forth coming in this investigation, we've seen many cases solved due to this very thing.

Police investigations, forensics have come so far in what they were that many years ago in the Chamberlain case. Cameras, dna, the dogs, they don't lie and warp or slant facts and evidence. They tell the story. There is also witnesses to the comings and goings leading up to and after the events of this case that can be documented. For example, just how many bottles of wine was consumed that fateful night. There will be receipts for what they drank, ate, what time the food and beverages were charged on their credit cards, rooms bills.

The police have done what they felt was right from the beginning. I'ts easy to sit back and say what they should have done. Hindsight is always better and more informed after the fact. The only one that had the upper hand at the onset of this investigation was the perp, blaming the police is a horrible trend in this world that's become acceptable due to defence lawyers trying to get guilty clients off.

There's always exceptions to where police have went after the wrong person, but those cases have been brought to the attention of the public, re-investigated and many many falsely prosecuted people have been set free.
Police only have so much they can do to help fight and solve crime. Finally the Chamberlain case was completely solved and righted for the innocent. Thank goodness this isn't the norm. We learn from mistakes like these. We also learn over time the actual involvement the very ones that should love children are more likely the perps than strangers, which is something you wouldn't have convinced the public of 30 years ago either. Especially the mother.

The criminals are the bad people, not police.

You are actually making my point for me. You are right when you say there are leaks from both sides. You are also right when you say that the police have made mistakes.
All I am saying and will continue to say, is that until we have some real information to go on, I will continue to keep an open mind.

 

[Rino]

Hi philamena....

I think that there has been a rush to judgment. I think that lots of people cannot get past the fact that they showed terrible judgment in leaving those children alone. I think some of those people can say it don't make them murderers, but can't actually feel it.That's not a dig at anyone, I think it's human nature.

Bold mine.....

That is plain silly.

The cry "they've taken her", reported first by her sister in law only to change months later - definately sounded an alarm.

The investigaion shows no forced entry, the shutters were not touched as indicated.

Although no blood was evident to the naked eye, dogs found some in the apt along with "the scent of death". Which, KM had a muriad of reasons and excuses why that might be

Jane Tannners wishy-washy eye witeness, now countered twice.

Murat no longer a suspect, the alibi prooved true.

Gerry in his first televised interview said in no way did he feel any thing wrong, it was a lovely holiday, they could not think of anything upon being asked that would indicate any danger to Maddie. Only to change this with the revelation that indeed, a few days ago, he felt they were being watched. By the by, if he felt they were being wathced brings us back to square one - why leave the kids unattenede?

They won't talk about many aspects of the case due to respecting Portugese law...but they also won't answer all the questions and they claim now to have hired a PI security firm 3 weeks after the "abduction", which is too against Portugese law.

So no, not because they were in their own words "naive" does anyone think they very likely had a hand in her disappearance, but because of the abbriavated list above.

 

[Brefie]

I don't see how this statement isn't anything but a rush to judgement. How can you say the police investigation is botched? Becuase someone leaked some information that doesn't mean it's botched. We don't even know if it's true leaks, no sources have been named or charged, just innuendo. The leaks could also be from the other side. We don't know.

Giving the public information isn't botching anything, it's what's done in most cases to a degree in order to get help from the public. If any, the police should be more forth coming in this investigation, we've seen many cases solved due to this very thing.

Police investigations, forensics have come so far in what they were that many years ago in the Chamberlain case. Cameras, dna, the dogs, they don't lie and warp or slant facts and evidence. They tell the story. There is also witnesses to the comings and goings leading up to and after the events of this case that can be documented. For example, just how many bottles of wine was consumed that fateful night. There will be receipts for what they drank, ate, what time the food and beverages were charged on their credit cards, rooms bills.

The police have done what they felt was right from the beginning. I'ts easy to sit back and say what they should have done. Hindsight is always better and more informed after the fact. The only one that had the upper hand at the onset of this investigation was the perp, blaming the police is a horrible trend in this world that's become acceptable due to defence lawyers trying to get guilty clients off.

There's always exceptions to where police have went after the wrong person, but those cases have been brought to the attention of the public, re-investigated and many many falsely prosecuted people have been set free.
Police only have so much they can do to help fight and solve crime. Finally the Chamberlain case was completely solved and righted for the innocent. Thank goodness this isn't the norm. We learn from mistakes like these. We also learn over time the actual involvement the very ones that should love children are more likely the perps than strangers, which is something you wouldn't have convinced the public of 30 years ago either. Especially the mother.

The criminals are the bad people, not police.

I would say the Police investigation is/was botched. The parents should always be the first suspects, they were not. These tests should have been done IMMEDIATELY, not a couple months later. The apartment should have never been released for rent - it was. There were MANY mistakes made.


Just because the police do their best, doesn't mean anyone has to accept it as good enough. I am sure there is a large number of innocent people in prison, or have been and an even larger number of criminals not caught.
There are plenty of crooked cops out there. I am very grateful for all of the good guys in LE, that's for sure, but unfortunately, some bad guys get through.

 

[Brefie]

Bold mine.....

That is plain silly.

The cry "they've taken her", reported first by her sister in law only to change months later - definately sounded an alarm.

The investigaion shows no forced entry, the shutters were not touched as indicated.

Although no blood was evident to the naked eye, dogs found some in the apt along with "the scent of death". Which, KM had a muriad of reasons and excuses why that might be

Jane Tannners wishy-washy eye witeness, now countered twice.

Murat no longer a suspect, the alibi prooved true.

Gerry in his first televised interview said in no way did he feel any thing wrong, it was a lovely holiday, they could not think of anything upon being asked that would indicate any danger to Maddie. Only to change this with the revelation that indeed, a few days ago, he felt they were being watched. By the by, if he felt they were being wathced brings us back to square one - why leave the kids unattenede?

They won't talk about many aspects of the case due to respecting Portugese law...but they also won't answer all the questions and they claim now to have hired a PI security firm 3 weeks after the "abduction", which is too against Portugese law.

So no, not because they were in their own words "naive" does anyone think they very likely had a hand in her disappearance, but because of the abbriavated list above.

So what?
I still stand by my point that SOME PEOPLE cannot get past the fact they left the kids alone. I am not saying you are not allowed to be suspicious because of other factors.

 

[wtsn5]

I also need to add we really don't know if the "they've taken her" statement is true - what I have read all is heresay. The sister in law was not there. All the leaks are just that leaks not proven facts. If the police had so much evidence why haven't they been charged. In fact they and all their friends should have been made "suspects" that first night.
All the talk of inconsistancy with what the McCanns have said or didn't say might be just the medai manipulating a quote a phrase - rather than play the whole conversation we are only hearing a portion. It like when I was a child playing telephone - you tell someone something by the time it went around the circle it was completely another word or phrase.

JMO

 

[Brefie]

I also need to add we really don't know if the "they've taken her" statement is true - what I have read all is heresay. The sister in law was not there. All the leaks are just that leaks not proven facts. If the police had so much evidence why haven't they been charged. In fact they and all their friends should have been made "suspects" that first night.
All the talk of inconsistancy with what the McCanns have said or didn't say might be just the medai manipulating a quote a phrase - rather than play the whole conversation we are only hearing a portion. It like when I was a child playing telephone - you tell someone something by the time it went around the circle it was completely another word or phrase.

JMO

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
Exactly.

 

[AfterMidnight]

The real truth is in the hands of the prosecutor csds, none of us know what they have yet, hopefully there will be a trial and we will find out the truth.

Hopefully the guilty party will be put on trial and the real truth will come out. I think we all want that. I further hope the parents won't be put on trial just to clear the case and appease those hungry for someone's blood. We don't even know Madeleine is dead yet.

 

[Rino]

So what?
I still stand by my point that SOME PEOPLE cannot get past the fact they left the kids alone. I am not saying you are not allowed to be suspicious because of other factors.

No you didn't.

Not getting past the fact they they left their kids and making the jump that that is why some conclude they are murderes is what you said. Which in turn is a strong indication that you have closed your mind to the other suspicious factors some of us look at.

You, and others, have use the fact that bad judgemnt does not equal murder, which makes you right :woohoo: But it also does not equal innocence, which may make you wrong

 

[Brefie]

No you didn't.

Not getting past the fact they they left their kids and making the jump that that is why some conclude they are murderes is what you said. Which in turn is a strong indication that you have closed your mind to the other suspicious factors some of us look at.

You, and others, have use the fact that bad judgemnt does not equal murder, which makes you right :woohoo: But it also does not equal innocence, which may make you wrong

I could care less about being right. It's my opinion.

I have stated plenty of times on this board that if ACTUAL undisputed evidence comes to light, I will scream for them to receive the harshest punishment. I have not seen any just yet. A leak does not make for a solid fact.

'Suspicious factors' are subject to opinion. Because you and I don't agree what makes a suspicious factor does not mean I have closed my mind.

 

[csds703]

I could care less about being right. It's my opinion.

I have stated plenty of times on this board that if ACTUAL undisputed evidence comes to light, I will scream for them to receive the harshest punishment. I have not seen any just yet. A leak does not make for a solid fact.

'Suspicious factors' are subject to opinion. Because you and I don't agree what makes a suspicious factor does not mean I have closed my mind.

I totally agree with this statement. This is exactly how I feel word for word.

 

[KBUK]

I don't know if this is appropriate here but I think it needs pointing out that here in the UK children don't go missing/ get kidnapped/ murdered on a regular basis. (although it is becoming more common). We are not so acutely aware of the dangers as in the USA, we are more relaxed with our children, but certainly not to the point of negligence. We do not have Amber Alerts etc. For example, my next door neighbour came round recently to share a drink. Her children were asleep, her doors were locked and she checked on them regularly (every 10 minutes) - is this not similar to the McCanns?

Don't get me wrong, I am not defending them, I am still unsure which side of the fence I am on. I just wanted to point this out. I see it is hard to understand the Portugese/ english laws as it is to also understand the way of life.

 

[Brefie]

I don't know if this is appropriate here but I think it needs pointing out that here in the UK children don't go missing/ get kidnapped/ murdered on a regular basis. (although it is becoming more common). We are not so acutely aware of the dangers as in the USA, we are more relaxed with our children, but certainly not to the point of negligence. We do not have Amber Alerts etc. For example, my next door neighbour came round recently to share a drink. Her children were asleep, her doors were locked and she checked on them regularly (every 10 minutes) - is this not similar to the McCanns?

Don't get me wrong, I am not defending them, I am still unsure which side of the fence I am on. I just wanted to point this out. I see it is hard to understand the Portugese/ english laws as it is to also understand the way of life.

Ok, y'all, don't faint but.......

No, it is not similar to the McCann's. If anyone had tried to break into your neighbor's home, I am willing to bet you both would have heard it. Possibly even heard them cry if they woke? I am guessing clearly, but my point is that they had a 'journey' to get to their children, your neighbor simply had to peek out of your window to know there was not a fire or a light on, etc...again, I am guessing about the situation at your home, but the distance thing is the very big difference.

 

[Rino]

I don't know if this is appropriate here but I think it needs pointing out that here in the UK children don't go missing/ get kidnapped/ murdered on a regular basis. (although it is becoming more common). We are not so acutely aware of the dangers as in the USA, we are more relaxed with our children, but certainly not to the point of negligence. We do not have Amber Alerts etc. For example, my next door neighbour came round recently to share a drink. Her children were asleep, her doors were locked and she checked on them regularly (every 10 minutes) - is this not similar to the McCanns?

Don't get me wrong, I am not defending them, I am still unsure which side of the fence I am on. I just wanted to point this out. I see it is hard to understand the Portugese/ english laws as it is to also understand the way of life.

I agree that the simple act of leaving them does not equal their guilt of her abduction.

But, there always is a but , with the latest news that GM indicated he believed they were being watched prior to the abduction, I now find it even more diffictult to defend such a mistake.

At first I didn't think tehy had anything to do with her dissappearance, on the face of it it appeared to be a tragic outcome from a bad decision. The aftermath is what makes me lean toward their guilt today.

 

[KBUK]

Ok, y'all, don't faint but.......

No, it is not similar to the McCann's. If anyone had tried to break into your neighbor's home, I am willing to bet you both would have heard it. Possibly even heard them cry if they woke? I am guessing clearly, but my point is that they had a 'journey' to get to their children, your neighbor simply had to peek out of your window to know there was not a fire or a light on, etc...again, I am guessing about the situation at your home, but the distance thing is the very big difference.

Hi Brefie, I agree, my use of the word 'similar' was probably used in the wrong context. What I was trying to get across was that here in the UK, due to the fact that this is such a rareity, we are more relaxed about the decisions we make regarding the safety of our children. I was fully expecting a bashing for leaving children alone! You're right, we could see, hear etc. even though our houses are detached. Probably not the best example! What I guess I'm trying to say, is that to some extent I understand why they thought it was okay. It doesn't make them murderers.

 

[colomom]

I just want to jump in and say that I really hope that people don't think that my theories about what happened to Madeleine are based solely on the fact that her parents left her alone.

That is just the icing on the cake and to me represents a fundamental lack of care for those babies.

The cake is made from many more ingredients.

BTW, I can feel the love on this thread

 

[pinto]

Ok, y'all, don't faint but.......

No, it is not similar to the McCann's. If anyone had tried to break into your neighbor's home, I am willing to bet you both would have heard it. Possibly even heard them cry if they woke? I am guessing clearly, but my point is that they had a 'journey' to get to their children, your neighbor simply had to peek out of your window to know there was not a fire or a light on, etc...again, I am guessing about the situation at your home, but the distance thing is the very big difference.

I think she/he's saying that the ATTITUDE is similar to the McCanns'. There is not the fear and suspicion there that is present in the US.

That may be changing, as shown by the mumsnet link I posted in the Mark Warner thread, but it's difficult to judge UK attitudes by US standards. It isn't fair.

UK and Euros judge US by their own standards, too, and gee, many don't like us that much ... :snooty:

edit: oops, OP already clarified ...

 

[Brefie]

Hi Brefie, I agree, my use of the word 'similar' was probably used in the wrong context. What I was trying to get across was that here in the UK, due to the fact that this is such a rareity, we are more relaxed about the decisions we make regarding the safety of our children. I was fully expecting a bashing for leaving children alone! You're right, we could see, hear etc. even though our houses are detached. Probably not the best example! What I guess I'm trying to say, is that to some extent I understand why they thought it was okay. It doesn't make them murderers.

Gotcha...I agree it don't make them murderers. I do sorta see it as a cultural difference, but I cannot get over the distance. I do think there is a more relaxed attitude from the UK, due to these things not happening as much, but they were just so darned far away!!

 

[colomom]

http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1699003&postcount=81

A very good post that I thought should be here too....

 

[southcitymom]

That's how I've been feeling too, SCM. But, just for today, I have a glimmer of hope.

Chances are that you are right.

I didn't mean to be such a buzzkill! I will take your glimmer of hope and run with it!:blowkiss: