Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #179

[zh0r4]

I understand the fair trial but for me expert shopping and pay to experts until found one who is willing to say the answers that you like for some ammount of money isn't an fair trial. It's odd for me.

But my system is totally different so my approach it is with that in mind.

Our courts are set up for fair trials. Any good case against a defendant will stand. My mom (a scientist) was an expert witness for CSA cases, and one of the defendants was rich. That defendant’s defense did not “buy” an expert witness to counter her-money wasn’t an issue.

An expert witness doesn’t equate someone who will lie under oath for money. I assume most give their best opinion. If a case if strong, there will be nothing to counter.

JMHO.

 

[layer]

An expert witness doesn’t equate someone who will lie under oath for money. I assume most give their best opinion. If a case if strong, there will be nothing to counter.

Exactly! And when they get to the point of dueling experts it's almost always a wash. You can practically see the jurors' eyes glaze over.

 

[susane7]

Our courts are set up for fair trials. Any good case against a defendant will stand. My mom (a scientist) was an expert witness for CSA cases, and one of the defendants was rich. That defendant’s defense did not “buy” an expert witness to counter her-money wasn’t an issue.

An expert witness doesn’t equate someone who will lie under oath for money. I assume most give their best opinion. If a case if strong, there will be nothing to counter.

JMHO.

Ok good to know. I got the impression that experts (of any part) were willing to lie under oath for money and it wasn't making sense to me.

Our courts are set up for fair trials too. The biggest critic of people to our system it is how our penal code is absolutely made for the benefit of the defendant, how lights our sentences are, the defendants have only to serve 5/6 of their sentence and then they must go free, the mugshots aren't public, we don't know who the sexual assaulters are and where they live (we protect their image), the judge only can condemn if don't have any doubt, etc, etc. But we don't pay for experts. They are mostly impartial. (delete if this it's off topic).

 

[susiQ]

Aquafina bottle

Unless it was an opened/used water bottle that would make zero sense. All of a sudden DNA seems certain.

RBBM
I would imagine the should since someone admitted spitting on Abby.

 

[somequestions]

Regarding these points from your post;
-Clothing from either of the girls found during the search warrant of his home
-Forensic evidence from either of the girls on his clothing or his forensic evidence on either of them
-Details in the confession he gave that only the killer would know
I'm only aware of one search warrant for RA's home, property and car. I didn't see any of those items listed on it.
For a long time, I agreed with you about him being the only one who knows things the killer knows.
Now, I'm not sure I can count on that at all. Did any of the LE/guards at Westville have access to the discovery?

Gull's doc dump

State of Indiana v. Richard M. Allen | Allen Superior Court

allensuperiorcourt.us

I do not think the Westville guards have anything to do with the case. I understand the reasoning behind it, but if the defense tries that theory of pointing the finger at someone else without proof, I do not think it will work out very well.

In my opinion, what they should do is show it could have been someone else based on lack of evidence but not specify any one person or group. For example, many people wear blue jackets. How can you be sure the man in the video is Richard Allen simply because he says he wore a blue jacket that day? In my opinion, the jacket in Liberty German's phone video looks like a windbreaker, not a Carhartt jacket.

Also, the question should be raised about Richard Allen's placement on the Monon High Bridge. Many people use this as the reason he is the killer because he had to be in that Monon High Bridge area based on the witness who walked to the bridge(BB) and saw him on platform 1 and Abby and Libby walking to the bridge shortly after the witness. But how then can we assume he walked around the Hoosier Harveststore surveillance camera on the way back to his car?

Isn't it possible that maybe the reason Richard Allen was not seen on the Hoosier Harveststore surveillance camera video is because he is not the person who murdered Abigail Williams and Liberty German and the person who did murder them did not leave the area by walking down 300N?

Richard Allen did confess, but other innocent people have confessed to crimes the did not commit too.

But maybe the prosecution has some type of definitive evidence that we do not know about yet publicly. Then all these questions I put forth above would be moot. The questions would not matter.

 

[snooptroop88]

Even if we assume BG is RA, we know he (probably) didn't act alone, and the CS looks unusual with symbols. We don't yet know what the common bond that connects the perps would be. Could the case be connected with the Stephenson murders or Jorden Sopher? They found Jorden's skeletal remains scattered near the Wabash River in 2009. She was reported missing from Wabash in 2006 when she was 17.

The Stephenson CS was elaborately staged. Source: "Cox said, 'There were symbols, there were items that were used at the scene to indicate strong feelings or opinions about the victims Bill and Peggy.' Cox said the evidence proves the killer or killers were either with the bodies for several hours, or came back to the home long after the murders....Cox won't call it a satanic ritual or sacrifice, but he believes the killer was trying to communicate something."
From another source: "We had received some information from an individual regarding the Delphi murders in Indiana, and they had said, ‘For all of these reasons, we believe it may be the same person that was involved in the Stephenson case,’” Cox said." Continues: "The information pointed Boone County investigators toward a specific person who had a specific item they were interested in.

“I’m not going to tell you about what that item was,” Cox said. “We’ve recently been in the northern part of Indiana, investigating this guy, following him around, looking for things, collecting all of the information and evidence that we would need to at least vet him as best we could with our case. He was cooperative... We were able to go down that path with him, and he articulated good reason to why that [item] may have existed.”...."To be clear, Cox says their investigation into a potential link between the two cases did not include Richard Allen. When Boone County detectives were in Delphi, Allen was already in jail, where he has been since October 2022, accused in the murders of Abby and Libby.

'We received information from Indiana as it related to some persons and we forwarded that to them... We did not send them the information that led them to Richard Allen. We sent them information that may have had some parallel consistencies with where they are with that case right now,” Cox said. “I know that sounds a little cloak and dagger, but I’m just sorry about that. We’re not getting farther with that.”

Investigators revealing new information as 10-year anniversary of couple’s murder approaches

Investigators found the Stephensons brutally murdered inside their Florence home in 2011.

www.fox19.com

Backstory: Detective vows brutal slayings of Florence couple won't go unsolved

Much about the 2011 slayings of Bill and Peggy Stephenson remains a mystery, but the lead detective vows he won't give up until he has answers.

www.cincinnati.com

Jorden Aryne Sopher – The Charley Project

charleyproject.org

Jorden Sopher found dead

Jorden Sopher, an eighteen-year-old girl who’d been missing from Wabash, Indiana since 2006, has been found dead. Her skeleton was found scattered along a creek. They think the body had been …

charleyross.wordpress.com

Lead investigator in bizarre NKY cold case has message for murderer

Bill and Peggy Stephenson were found dead inside their home 7 years ago

www.wlwt.com

Jury selection begins Monday in Delphi double murder case

Richard Allen is accused of killing Libby German and Abby Williams in 2017

www.fox19.com

These 30 hate groups operate in Indiana, Southern Poverty Law Center says

The SPLC says Trump emboldened white supremacist groups in 2017, which sparked backlash among black nationalist groups.

www.indystar.com

 

[mrjitty]

<modsnip - no link>

I am sceptical because the behavior of the defense. I think this pre-trial circus suits them and they keep complaining about the massive discovery, so I don't know. I think they will asking for a continuance but twist it in some way to blame the P. But I don't know how it works when they ask for a speedy trial. They can asked a continuance until when? Shouldn't there be an hearing to decide if the odinist guys can be discussed on the trial? The judge seems to really want to go to trial in May, so I really don't know.

given the push for funding and the motion for parity it would seem they are quite late in the day with their expert reports which then need to be discovered.

assuming such reports don’t exist yet at the heart of the case around tool marks for example i had wondered if they might ask for a continuance soon.

maybe also they aren’t going to try to exclude much pre trial.

just my musings.

 

[marv hucker]

confessions expert.

Now why didn’t my careers counsellor tell me about that potential job?

“Explain in 900 words or more why what our client said is not what our client meant”.

That will be $45,000 please.

 

[marv hucker]

Other prisoners have been convicted and sentenced in a court of law. RA has not. Even if he is guilty, this is a human rights/constitutional issue IMO. Personally, I have never seen anyone paraded that shackled in the news in my life.

I have, it’s definitely tactical from Police/prosecution, it makes anyone look that touch more guilty.

 

[marv hucker]

Ok good to know. I got the impression that experts (of any part) were willing to lie under oath for money and it wasn't making sense to me.

Our courts are set up for fair trials too. The biggest critic of people to our system it is how our penal code is absolutely made for the benefit of the defendant, how lights our sentences are, the defendants have only to serve 5/6 of their sentence and then they must go free, the mugshots aren't public, we don't know who the sexual assaulters are and where they live (we protect their image), the judge only can condemn if don't have any doubt, etc, etc. But we don't pay for experts. They are mostly impartial. (delete if this it's off topic).

More likely to try and find an expert who will plant a seed of doubt, than try and say the complete opposite or lie.

(Eg in this one - could be trying to say the bullet could have come out of a range of guns, not his specific gun… ).

 

[FromGermany1]

I have, it’s definitely tactical from Police/prosecution, it makes anyone look that touch more guilty.

Do you think, such influencing is allowed and indeed done by police: to show the defendant more guilty??

My thoughts were, RA in the past didn't always behave like required by his guards. Maybe, he once didn't get tasered (right wording??) for nothing. Eating papers, smashing tablets - who knows, how agitated he might get one day in court? IF he did a big crime in a very short time, he might be able, to do other things in a flash also? Idk.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Ok good to know. I got the impression that experts (of any part) were willing to lie under oath for money and it wasn't making sense to me.

Our courts are set up for fair trials too. The biggest critic of people to our system it is how our penal code is absolutely made for the benefit of the defendant, how lights our sentences are, the defendants have only to serve 5/6 of their sentence and then they must go free, the mugshots aren't public, we don't know who the sexual assaulters are and where they live (we protect their image), the judge only can condemn if don't have any doubt, etc, etc. But we don't pay for experts. They are mostly impartial. (delete if this it's off topic).

Expert witnesses are hired to give their interpretation based on their level of experience. The State will have a set supporting their theory and the Defense will have a set supporting their theory. One of them will not be accurate and it has been known that many experts are willing to shape their testimony to fit a theory.

Whether they are 'lying' or benefitting in some way from their interpretations will be up to the jury to decide. Both experts cannot be correct, who will be the most credible, knowledgable and believable in the eyes of the jury. That will be the deciding factor when deciding how much weight is given to one expert over the other.

IMO

 

[Andieinsyd]

Some of the testimony that I think is going to be valuable (if defence run with Odinist theory);
- Todd Click - investigated and believes there is evidence against a group of people as alternative suspects - sounds like more drug related than Odinist from Click’s perspective to me (doesn’t believe this was ritual sacrifice). Personally very interested to hear Mr Click.
- Associate Professor Jeffrey Turco - what will he say about the crime scene?
- Other people on the trails or in the area, who else did they see
- Family and friends of RA

Some things that are really puzzling to me that may not be answered
- RA knew he had been seen by three girls, so much so that he came forward to the CO, but proceeded with a murder not too far away
- RA kept his car and gun and stayed in Delphi, working in a customer facing role, even after the video came out
- The likely murderer walked along the road W300 after the murders (and was seen) rather than moving hidden through the wooded areas

 

[Salah11]

Some of the testimony that I think is going to be valuable (if defence run with Odinist theory);
- Todd Click - investigated and believes there is evidence against a group of people as alternative suspects - sounds like more drug related than Odinist from Click’s perspective to me (doesn’t believe this was ritual sacrifice). Personally very interested to hear Mr Click.
- Associate Professor Jeffrey Turco - what will he say about the crime scene?
- Other people on the trails or in the area, who else did they see
- Family and friends of RA

Some things that are really puzzling to me that may not be answered
- RA knew he had been seen by three girls, so much so that he came forward to the CO, but proceeded with a murder not too far away
- RA kept his car and gun and stayed in Delphi, working in a customer facing role, even after the video came out
- The likely murderer walked along the road W300 after the murders (and was seen) rather than moving hidden through the wooded areas

Likely he has harbored sick twisted fantasies for years and he had an opportunity.

He was Married and had a daughter so suddenly upping sticks would have raised many questions with his wife and everybody else. He had lived there over a decade I believe so he wasn’t a single man that could suddenly vanish.

MOO

 

[girlhasnoname]

Some of the testimony that I think is going to be valuable (if defence run with Odinist theory);
- Todd Click - investigated and believes there is evidence against a group of people as alternative suspects - sounds like more drug related than Odinist from Click’s perspective to me (doesn’t believe this was ritual sacrifice). Personally very interested to hear Mr Click.

Me also. I think Mr. Clicks comments have been taken out of context or stretched a bit, and he might of even have some hurt feelings for no longer being on the case.

- Associate Professor Jeffrey Turco - what will he say about the crime scene?

We know he said the CS looked like it could have been staged to resemble Norse type activity.

- Other people on the trails or in the area, who else did they see

Agree - Although I don't believe there were a lot of people on the bridges.

- Family and friends of RA

This is also interesting. RA's wife has not come out to media at all defending her husband. The most she has stated publicly is that he "is her person". Strange to me, but I bet she has been blindsided and maybe harassed and scared by RA's arrest. I think someone well known to RA might have tipped him in and got LE looking at him again.

Some things that are really puzzling to me that may not be answered
- RA knew he had been seen by three girls, so much so that he came forward to the CO, but proceeded with a murder not too far away

I think he scoped the bridge out and knew there was no one coming back from the end and no one behind him. He had time to confront the girls and control them by gun to quickly Get Down The Hill. There is extreme privacy once you pass over the creek.

- RA kept his car and gun and stayed in Delphi, working in a customer facing role, even after the video came out

Hiding in plain sight. He had already come forward, for him to pack up and leave would have made him look even guiltier IMO. He did also change his appearance after the murders to disguise his resemblance to BG IMO. Big weight gain, goatee grown out to ZZ Top length when it had always been short and well groomed. Basically a shaved head, verses his previous short cut styled hair which did have reddish brown in it from a picture of him in Oct 2016.

- The likely murderer walked along the road W300 after the murders (and was seen) rather than moving hidden through the wooded areas

That heavily wooded area cuts off at one point, he wouldn't have been able to follow it all the way to his car without getting on to Old County Road N300 or going through someone's back yard for a bit to reach his car. I believe he thought he was less likely to be encountered on that road 'muddy and bloody'.

Thanks for some good questions and thoughts. I look forward to seeing what evidence the State has to present. We've only 'heard' from the Defense side around the gag order, but I believe the State definitely has things that link RA directly to the crime.

#Justice4Abby&Libby

MOO

 

[layer]

Happy Easter!
Holidays are hard for the survivors, praying for the families today.

 

[Andieinsyd]

Happy Easter!
Holidays are hard for the survivors, praying for the families today.

Thank you, how very precious these girls were and are to their families

 

[Cyber sleuth]

I got a little audio clip I found of RA's voice and played it repeatedly, while at the same time listening to the BG audio. And it didn't sound obvious at all to me it was the same voice. I don't make a lot of this, though, because some people have very wide vocal ranges, it can depend on mood, equipment quality, weather/wind conditions and beyond, I would think. The comparison wasn't far enough off that it "couldn't have been him," JMO.

Really anxious to see what comes forward on the clothing. RA wears baseball hats all the time, I wouldn't (yet) make anything of the hat. No idea what to make of the motorcycle cover. Wonder if they'll do anything for the BG audio.

And with Easter upon us, thinking fondly of Baby Goat from BG's jacket. Love to you, Baby Goat, wherever you are.

Baby goat!
I am assuming they will have additional recordings from his voice from his multiple in prison phone calls as well to compare to the “DTH” audio.
Could they make a recording of cocking his seized gun and compare it to the sound in the recorded audio taken during abduction as well?
JMO

On a lighter note. Happy Easter to those that celebrate. Hope you get to spend some special time with those you love.

 

[susane7]

Expert witnesses are hired to give their interpretation based on their level of experience. The State will have a set supporting their theory and the Defense will have a set supporting their theory. One of them will not be accurate and it has been known that many experts are willing to shape their testimony to fit a theory.

Whether they are 'lying' or benefitting in some way from their interpretations will be up to the jury to decide. Both experts cannot be correct, who will be the most credible, knowledgable and believable in the eyes of the jury. That will be the deciding factor when deciding how much weight is given to one expert over the other.

IMO

Thank you for the explanation. My idea is some experts can "stretch" the truth.

Apparently, the reason there’s no information about the funds for experts other than what the defense has said it is because they asked in 2022 that all requests for funds be sealed and the judge Gull agreed. From what I am understood, they also are appointed attorneys for this case and appointed attorney have always limited budgets. So, I wonder if they are playing the victim card or it is just a way to poison the jury pool.

 

[Boxer]

Other prisoners have been convicted and sentenced in a court of law. RA has not. Even if he is guilty, this is a human rights/constitutional issue IMO. Personally, I have never seen anyone paraded that shackled in the news in my life.

The arent having him in a suicide smock, but i think they want "package" control of him. Jumping down the stairs looks like a risk.